Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!

Subject: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:49 AM

What is UP with this-- in the last month I have had three different electronic devices appear to die on me, only to find they had "dead" batteries.... then, come to find, they aren't dead at all!

Pattern-- device turns on and appears to be ready to go, then shuts self off, sometimes as soon as a key/button is pressed. Repeat-- same effect, ad nauseam.

OK, change the batteries, try again-- presto!

But then if you test the batteries, you find there is a LOT of juice left-- like 90%!!! Runs a flashlight, or a remote, just fine.

Is this a conspiracy, or does it actually protect the devices?

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:10 PM

As a mere male I don't know much about these battery powered devices that you ladies carry around. I would guess that it is a bit like the battery protection system I have in my portable TV in the motor home, which cuts out at quite a high voltage to protect my main battery, but in my opinion it cuts out too soon. These things can be adjusted to cut out at a lower figure if you can find someone to do said adjustment.
Giok

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: MMario
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:23 PM

WYSIWYG - sometimes w/ electronics the partial charge just isn't enough - and sometimes if you reseat the batteries they will work.

my digital camara eats batteries at a tremendous rate - and will take *NON* flash pictures for a long while after it reports low battery for flash pictures (and shuts off)

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:23 PM

The real answers may depend on the specific kind of device, and on the type of battery it's supposed to use.

A common problem is corrosion on the contacts where the battery goes in. When you insert a new battery, you may scrape through the corrosion and make enough contact to look like it's on, but the resistance due to the corrosion may not allow sufficient current for the device to function.

Some devices will "turn on" if the batteries are installed backward - with the wrong polarity, but won't function. We'll assume you were careful about that.

Some devices are very sensitive to specific battery type. If it's designed to use Alkaline batteries, for example, it may not work on cheap Carbon Zinc batteries. If it's intended to use rechargeable Lithiums, Mercury rechargeables won't do.

If you're using a "battery tester" to determine that the battery has "like 90%" left, the tester must usually be specific for the kind of battery you're testing. A mercury rechargeable has a lower voltage than a carbon zinc, so the voltage - the only thing a tester usually checks - that indicates good charge on a mercury may be close to dead for another kind of battery.

Or there may have been a nuclear incident near your neighborhood and the EMP (Electromagnetic Pulse) effect may have burned out an internal component in the devices that are acting strangely. More likely a failed or "weak" diode or capacitor inside a device may give behaviour similar to your description, although it would be unusual to find a "clump" of devices all with the same kind of failure.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:29 PM

That's it then John, she's been the victim of a WMD, or Weapon of Massachusetts Destruction, it's not that far from MA to where she lives.
Giok

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: kendall
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 12:47 PM

Make sure the polarity hasn't changed. Remember what happened to the Energizer Bunny; someone put his batteries in backwards and he just kept coming and coming...

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 01:05 PM

MMario, some (all?) digital camera eats the ordinary alkaline batteries. Put a set of rechargable NiMh in it and they last a good while before needing a recharge. I couldn't afford to use ours on std batteries.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 01:25 PM

Not being an expert on batteries (definition: "ex" meaning "has-been" and "spurt" meaning "a little drip under pressure"), I have used 'em a lot. I've found that if I'm using a battery to run machinery, such as a portable cassette recorder, such devices tend to suck the batteries dry a lot quicker than a flashlight would. But when they no longer have enough juice to run the recorder, they still have enough to power a flashlight, at least for awhile—or actuate a battery tester, pushing the needle at least partway into the green, if not all the way up like a fresh battery.

FWIW.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: s&r
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:04 PM

Rechargers for alkaline batteries are available and hugely increase their life.

Stu

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:11 PM

"old" carbon-zinc batteries were 1.5 volts per cell. The newer ones ( NiMH, NiCd, etc) run 1.2-1.25 per cell. Even fully chrged, they may not provide enough voltage for something not designed for them. I remember a number of radios ( 2 way ) that had 8 cell packs (12V) for regular batteries, and 10 cell packs (12V) for rechargeable NiCds.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: pdq
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:39 PM

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: pdq
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:41 PM

At least two people have come close to the answer, maybe actually did answer the question. If not clear, let's try again.

Modern test equipment is high impedance, meaning that practically no current is required to gat a voltage reading (from the suspect battery). It could read close to normal voltage. However, when a load is added (the battery is put into service) it cannot deliver the required current and the voltage drops. If the device the battery is installed in has a circuit to sense low voltage, it may (will) shut off the device.

If these are carbon (cheap type) throw them away. If they are rechargeable, recharge them. If they are alkaline, they may have some service left as flashlight batteries or emergency backup for a small radio.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: Kaleea
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:17 PM

We need more alternative energy sources. Surely the best answer is to power everything with a bunch of little critters running on wheels in their cages! Simply carry the little buggers in one's pocketbook with the appliances hooked up to the wheels in motion. Perhaps some creative 'Catter could patent lots of things powered in the manner of the Flinstones. Perhaps fellow 'Catters could get somewhat of a discount off the price of, say, a chipmunk powered chromatic tuner.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:34 PM

I'm not sure y'all got my point-- which is that the batteries are not, in fact, dead... I'm not in need of help about this....

My point is that we now have a plethora of devices that are made to cause us to buy a LOT of batteries, and that there may not be a need to discard "dead" batteries. I think it's another case of planned obsolescence, and an effort to capture our dollars.

~S~

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:39 PM

The batteries probably are dead as far as the devices you are trying to use them on. What are the devices? Things that require a fair amount of current?

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:42 PM

Things that require substantially more current in one second than they do in the moment just previous?

~S~

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:47 PM

The voltage should be marked on the case- the alkaline AA cells I just looked at say 1.5V, while the NiMH AA cells say 1.2V. They may be fine- just the wrong voltage for what you are using them in.

( and the alkaline is 1100ma, while the NiMH is 3200ma!)

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 04:54 PM

Susan, different batteries perfom differently over their "lifespan".

Alkeline (and I think carbon) do not do well no "high drain" applications. Once they have drained a little, as pdq said, although they might test out OK on a tester and perform OK on something else, they are not really able to produce the higher current for long.

If it is a "higher drain" device and it will work on rechargeable NiMh, you would be much better off using those. They cope better in those conditions.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 05:16 PM

Thread creep:

Those who would like a decent summary of various kinds of batteries may take a look at Battery Chemistry. The page may be slow loading, as it's fairly large; but it's one of the best summaries I've found.

It may come in handy in the next thread about alternative power systems that don't generate a lot of chipmunk turds.

WYSIWYG knows that her batteries are good, although we don't know how she knows; and we're not told what devices don't work; so it's obvious (?) that what's wanted is sympathy, and not explanations. So "tisch, tisch" extended, I guess.

And an added "Gosh, Golly, Gee, that's terrible."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 05:19 PM

John, we very nearly cross posted the same link then!

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 06:20 PM

A special for WYS that may make her feel better:

Researchers Unveil $100 Laptop for Schoolkids, By Andy Sullivan, Reuters, November 16, 2005. It comes with a hand crank for when the batteries go dead.

(Performance is a bit low.)

Jon - some very good stuff on that battery site. They also do chargers, but only heavy duty stuff. Not too techy for most to get some use either.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: JennyO
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:38 AM

The digital camera I was given for my birthday a few weeks ago takes 2xAA batteries, and I found out pretty fast what a drain they are on batteries. I didn't have much money at the time, but I was able to buy, quite cheaply, this Grandcell Dual Charger, which came supplied with four rechargeable alkaline batteries and will charge 2 or 4 alkaline or NIMH batteries, but not both types at the same time. It only does AA's and AAA's, but I don't use other sizes very often anyway. I like it because it is small, about the size of an adaptor, light, and plugs directly onto a power board, like an adaptor.

So far, I have been managing with two batteries in the camera and two charging, or charged up and ready to go. Soon, when finances allow, I want to get four rechargeable NIMH batteries, which will last much longer in the camera. The alkaline ones won't go to waste, as I have a number of items, torches and the like, which I can use them in.

When I think of all the AA batteries I've had to use up and throw away, I wish I'd bought this charger years ago!

Jenny

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:50 AM

On the chargers, I have had 3, one of which I don't use. Of the others,
one is an older one that I use for the few C batteries we have. The other one is this Fameart one for AA and AAA batteries.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:46 AM

Joy had some new NMh batteries recently and they only lasted two hours - compared to the 25 of the originals when new.

I have to look at them, the radio, and the charger. Measuring voltage does not tell you what charge they have. The voltage/charge left curve is flat for most of the charge level and only falls at the last minute, (or rises at full charge).

If the batteries are high impedance they will cause the fault described. Depending on the duty level of the devices powered.

High impedance can occur if the charger is faulty or if the trickle charge is too high for too long. And if the batteries are not fully discharged when charged. (YES even NMh and Lion if you want to be pedantic, it is a question of amount) but it takes a while to do that and is not as bad as NiCad.

I hope this makes it clearer.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: Keef
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 09:52 PM

I just bought a digital camera. Batteries that came with it are Kodak "Digital camera batteries" oxy-alkaline type 1.5 Volt.
Needing a quick replacement I fitted some ordinary 1.5 Volt Alkaline batteries. Camera won't work at all on those.
These are brand new batteries, reading about 1.6 Volts no load.
Is this a conspiracy by Kodak?
They can't sell much film these days so perhaps they are trying to create a monopoly on batteries.
I have qualifications in electronic engineering but I am still mystified as to how the camera can detect any difference between the Kodak batteries and other types. Open cicuit voltage is almost identical and the voltage under load is not likely to be much different.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 26 Nov 05 - 10:08 PM

Keef, I don't know about that camera but take the gamble

Get some NiMH and a charger and try it.

Where I feel the conspiracy is is that they (ours is an Olympus) never tell you when you buy the things that you may need to invest a little more than just the camera before you have a reasonable working system.

I believe (but could be wrong) Kodak themselves have interests outside films - someone may confirm or deny this but I thought they were heavily involved in the electronics development side of these type of devices.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 12:16 AM

The Kodak people are working on a battery that will run your equipment one minute, and won't run it the next. Makes for increased sales. Sounds like Susan got herself a prototype.

Aloha,
Mark

PS, Susan, it sounds like John and pdq did answer your question.

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 01:08 AM

Memory effect is well known for NiCd rechargeable batteries. If not completely discharged on a regular basis, the batteries may appear to be fully recharged, but deliver very little power before there's nothing left. Functionally discharged at this point they may still appear to be fully charged if only the voltage is measured.

The same effect appears for NiMH (Nickel Metal Hydride) batteries, although less rapidly. The "Battery Chemistry" link at 17 Nov 05 - 05:16 PM recommends fully discharging NiMH batteries approximately once every 30 recharge cycles.

Some more sophisticated chargers will actually include a partial (or nearly complete) discharge step before recharging begins. The cycle required for best performance of a given set of batteries depends on the specific kind of batteries. If your "expensive piece of equipment" recommends a specific battery type, and if it came with a charger, it's safest to use batteries of only the recommended type and to use the charger that came with it, or at least another charger specific to the battery type.

With cheaper devices, the "throwaway" rechargers are unlikely to include any sophisticated charge profile control, so they can be considered interchangeable with others of like kind.

Most of the common rechargeable battery types have a cell voltage of about 1.2 volts, so a charger designed for 1.5 volt "Rechargeable Alkaline" (or Carbon-Zinc) batteries may overcharge them. Any charger designed for common rechargeables (except Alkalines) should only supply 1.2 volts, so can't "fully charge" an alkaline (or a Carbon Zinc) battery, but may put "some life" back into them.

I have noted, for NiMH batteries, that a first few charge cycles for a new set of batteries doesn't give particularly good performance; but the performance seems to improve after a few charge cycles. I haven't seen any "professional opinion" to support that this does happen; but at least in my Digital Camera it seems to be the case. The opposite is more likely with Ni-Cads, with each successive recharge giving back a bit less, even with regular discharging to avoid "memory effect."

John

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 07:19 AM

They are working on a small chip to be installed installed inside a battery which communicates via a 1 wire serial interface which will allow the battery to be only used in certain equipment.

I'm not making this up guys...

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 07:45 AM

The circuit is actually designed to monitor the charging of the rechargeable batteries - it's not really a plot folks!

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: John J
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 04:59 PM

IMHO (I have a little experience in servicing electronc equipment), John in Kansas has come up with an answer to Susan's problem: corrosion, often invisible, at the battery terminals.

Scare the battery contact AND the mating battery connector with some wire wool. Then wipe a thin film of Vaseline over the mating parts.

This has cured a great many 'battery faults' on equipment I've have had to repair.

Good luck.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: 'Dead' Batteries-- I Don't Think So!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Nov 05 - 06:25 PM

John J

I think you meant 'scour'. But, bloody hell! if someone attacked my mating connector with wire wool, I'd be scared into working better too!