BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba

Subject: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:01 AM

I see people discussing how great things are in Cuba under the genius of Fidel Castro. I see people predicting how things will go down hill in Cuba if the communist regime falls and the US attempts to tilt it toward a democracy.

In order to comapre the sucess or failure of Communisim VS Democracy and vice versa in a latin American country, Let's coampare Cuba with Puerto Rico, a democratic US territory and commonwealth. I believe they have voted against state hood and independance several times.


Let's start around the same time that the seeds of revolution in Cuba were taking root:

On November 1, 1950, Puerto Rican nationalists Griselio Torresola and Oscar Collazo attempted to assassinate President Harry S. Truman. Subsequently, Truman allowed for a genuinely democratic referendum in Puerto Rico to determine whether Puerto Ricans desired to draft their own constitution. Puerto Rico adopted its own constitution in July 25, 1952 which adopted the name Estado Libre Asociado (Free Associated State), translated into english as "Associated Commonwealth", for the body politic and which denotes Puerto Rico's current relationship with the United States. During the 1950s Puerto Rico experienced a rapid industrialization, with such projects as Operation Bootstrap which aimed to industrialize Puerto Rico's economy from agriculture-based into manufacturing-based.

Present-day Puerto Rico has become a major tourist destination and a leading pharmaceutical and manufacturing center. Still, Puerto Rico continues to struggle to define its political status. Three locally-authorized plebiscites have been held in recent decades to decide whether Puerto Rico should pursue independence, enhanced commonwealth status, or statehood. Narrow victories by commonwealth supporters over statehood advocates have not yielded substantial changes in the relationship between Puerto Rico and the federal government. In the latest status referendum of 1998, "None of the above" won over statehood with 50.2% of the votes, and support for the pro-statehood party (Partido Nuevo Progresista or PNP) and the pro-commonwealth party (Partido Popular Democrático or PPD) is about equal. The only registered independence party on the island, the Partido Independentista Puertorriqueño or PIP, usually receives 3-5% of the electoral votes, though there are several smaller independence groups like the Partido Nacionalista (Puerto Rican Nationalist Party), el Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano (National Hostosian Independence Movement), and the Macheteros - Ejercito Popular Boricua (or Boricua Popular Army).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puerto_Rico

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:08 AM

Old Guy, the USA won't try to tip Cuba toward being a "democracy", they will try to tip it toward being a lucrative corporate marketplace! ;-) Oh, I'm sure they will set up a couple of bogus parties, and hold a bogus election, but it won't mean diddly-squat. The important activities will be moving in McDonalds, Burger King, Microsoft, WalMart, etc....and providing a whole lot of cops to monitor the situation when 3/4 of the population finds out that their rent has gone up 800% and they no longer can afford to buy anything.

As for Puerto Rico, I don't know a damn thing about Puerto Rico, so I will listen with interest to whatever there is to say about it. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:11 AM

Well, I know I almost married a guy of PR descent...but he wanted to stay living on Long Island, NY...NOT me! He was a muscular power lifting (American) football player, so he probably ran to fan anyway! LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:34 AM

LH You sure are a cynical person. Where was all the wailing and gnashing of teeth when K Mart was doing the same thing that Walmart does? Every other retailer sells the same Chinese made stuff that Walmart sells.

What is wrong with McDonalds? Do you shoot rabbits and squirrels for food and ride a horse so you won't be doing business with the evil corporations?

In case you haven't noticed it yet, corporations hire people. Business means jobs. If you don't like to work for someone else you can start your own business.

You like it in Cuba so you could go there and start up something in true democratic style.

Or would you rather have the government own all of the businesses?

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 02:48 AM

I'm cynical about mass marketing, Old Guy, because it's so soulless and manipulative. It's so without character or individuality, and it's unresponsive to private citizens. I love small scale capitalism where you have a lot of small, individually owned, unique businesses that were created locally. I don't like it when huge nationwide corporations make everything the same everywhere, because it destroys the flowering of human initiative and imagination.

Small businesses hire people too, Old Guy, just as many people as big corporations do, and small businesses are the heart of what once made America great.

No, I think the government owning all the businesses is a terrible idea! Idiotic, in fact. There's nothing wrong with a government licensing businesses, but it should not own them.

In Cuba there were many small unique cafes, run by local people, and the food they cooked was great, and it wasn't exactly the same everywhere like fast food is, and it was 800% better than McDonalds' crap. It looked like small scale capitalism to me, and I loved it. It looked like America about 60 years ago, sort of...when there was your little local diner in a neighborhood owned by a local person serving their own home cooking.

Modern day corporations look a lot like communism under another name to me. They're centralized, they're enormous, they're impersonal, they have a head office in some remote place that you can't talk to, and they answer to no one.

I'm tellin' you, man, you've been sold a bill of goods. You HAVE communism right now, and it's in the hands of the corporate machine. It's just pretending to be "free" enterprise, but it ain't. Just because they make a profit does not necessarily mean that they create freedom for people!

Here's another thing you maybe haven't thought of: the big multinational corporations ARE your government, because they control it through financing the politicans' campaigns and lobbying. They control both political parties. So, like I'm telling you, you've already got communism. It's just masquerading as something else, and it's got you and most other people completely fooled. Centralization of production and political power in the hands of an elite few, producing mass conformity and drab sameness of lifestyle across a nation IS communism, whether or not that elite few are modern business corporations or the central committee of the Communist Party.

They've got you right where they want you. Worker bees and drones. All slaving away in the big corporate/communist beehive. Communism didn't die when the Berlin Wall fell. It was simply relocating its command central to places like Washington, London, Berlin, Los Angeles, Beijing, Tokyo, Seoul, etc...and demoting its former bureaucracy in Moscow for gross inefficiency. They didn't do a good enough job of dominating and controlling their people! The corporate marketers can do way better than that. They have much more clever marketing strategies than the Politburo ever came up with, because they appeal to basic human weaknesses: greed, boredom, and laziness.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 09:55 AM

I can see small businesses run by local people cranking out new drugs, automobiles, drilling for their own oil and refining it into gas. Yeah.

And I can see them fending off Jihadist RPG attacks from hostile neighboring nations with pitch forks and zip guns made in their own basements.

What has you by the balls is Geezerisim. I myself fight it every day. "Back in my day we had fresh milk right out of the cow instead of this chemical laced crap you get now." "I remember when kids actually died from childhood diseases."

Lighten up. You are living in the past and as far as I know you can emigrate to Cuba to get out from under that corporate control.

There are several burger chains and other fast food chains to choose from. I like to get Popeye's chicken with a side of onion rings and coleslaw to go. Or a chicken Salad at Chick Fila. I hate to go into a restaurant and sit and wait to order and sit some more and wait for the food and you don't get your drink so you wait for that and then you wait for the check and then they expect a tip for all that waiting. The only one I can tolerate is Cracker Barrel.

So it's different strokes for different folks but you would want to deny me what I like.

Now, what goes on in Puerto Rico that is inferior to what goes on in Cuba or vice versa.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:23 AM

All the Caribbean island nations suffer from extreme poverty, in varying degrees. This includes the capitalist nations, as well as Cuba.

Cuba is not nearly as badly off as Haiti, for instance. It is the poorest nation in the Western Hemisphere, and the US has been in charge there for quite some time.

Might want to try comparing apples to apples, Old Guy. Puerto Rico is a poor island, but is also a colony of the US. Like Jamaica is a poor country, but a colony of Britain.

It is the US & the UK who have controlled the Caribbean basin since the European invasions of the Western Hemisphere.

Cuba is the only island nation that ever gained any true independence from either the US or the UK (by allying itself with the Soviet Union). That choice alone so angered the US, the US nearly started fucking WW III over it. A bit of an over-reaction for a country exercising it's sovereign rights, yes?

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 11:13 AM

What I am trying to determine is what Cuba might become under the influence of democracy.

People here are saying it will become a "lucrative corporate marketplace" "activities will be moving in McDonalds, Burger King, Microsoft, WalMart, etc" "providing a whole lot of cops to monitor the situation" "3/4 of the population finds out that their rent has gone up 800%"

OI sat look at Puerto Rico to see what it might become. And compare Cuba with Puerto Rico the see if a latin american nation is better off under a Comminisim or Democracy.

So how are things in Puerto Rico?

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 11:34 AM

http://saxakali.com/caribbean/YeseniaE.htm

Standard of Living

Living conditions in the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico and Cuba are very different. In the Dominican republic's country side traditional rural dwellings are made of wood with roofs of corrugated tin and are often painted in bright colors. To keep the farmhouse cool, cooking is usually done in a separate structure with slotted sides for the release of smoke and heat. In the city living standards are much better than in the country. In the city you have availability to everything you need to live comfortably. The Dominican republic's infant mortality rate 1n1993 was 49 deaths per 1,000 births, and average life expectancy was 69 years. Hospitals are in Santo Domingo and Santiago, the two largest cities. In the countryside there is lower quality health care. Health programs are offered though the nation's public welfare department and social security departments, however, this only covers about 82% of the population.

In Puerto Rico, people enjoy a standard of living that is among the highest in the Caribbean. Health care on the island has continued to improve since the 1940's. the majority of Puerto Ricans have cars. While income for Puerto Ricans is much higher than in any other Caribbean island it is much lower than in the United States.

Of all three islands Cubans seems to have the worst living conditions of them all. Ever since the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, Cuba has been going through what they call a "Special Period." Under the special period, energy consumption is drastically reduced, oxen are put to work out in the fields, people get around in bikes and food is slashed to a minimum survival level. < font color=red>Once recognized as one of the best in the Third World, the health care system in Cuba today is so bad that patients must bring their own bed sheets to the hospital, and surgeons are given one bar of soap per month with which to wash their hands. Black markets buy and sell goods such as food, clothes, liquor, medicine, cigarettes, and gas.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 12:23 PM

I have no intention of taking your fast food away from you, Old Guy. ;-) And I am not suffering from geezerism, as you put it. I just happen to believe in freedom, that's all. Freedom is best achieved through local control, not through control by a corporate committee that is located 4,000 miles away in a skyscraper.

There are certain things that very much DO need to be centralized, and the military is one of those. That's why the government runs the military and pays military people their salaries. It has to be done that way in order to function effectively. I have no objection to centralization in areas where it is truly necessary...so, no, you will NOT have to defend yourself against the terrorists with homemade weapons if my ideas take hold.... (grin)

Some other things that probably are best done through centralized control structures: mass telecommunications networks, mass communication systems like the phones, medical infrastructure, major transportation systems, the legal system...

(and I may have missed a few, but those esssentially ARE the things that normally are done through governments in most countries, and I am in favour of that)

Doesn't it just intrigue you a wee bit...the notion that I put in front of you that huge corporations are very much LIKE Communism, and they use the same centralized, impersonal means of controlling people and enforcing conformity, but they do it more cleverly (by sweetening the pill)?

I mean, think about it. Really think about it for awhile.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:35 PM

Christ Old Guy, you are so far out of your league. Why not give it a rest? You don't know what the fuck you are talking about, and you are really annoying. No, make that REALLY, really fucking annoyingly stupid in the worst brainwashed dumb shit sort of way.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:35 PM

Hey, you can bitch about those corporations all you want, pick between different corporations, chose a product from a different country, refuse to buy their shit at all, demand a raise whatever.

But I Cuba you can't bitch at all. There is very little to choose from. Even your kids will turn you in.

I'll take Capitalisim over Communisim any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 06:54 PM

Good for you.

Now, shut the fuck up and go away, because no one gives a rat's ass what you'll take.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:02 PM

Well, I have said I'm glad to be living in Canada, haven't I? I'll choose a sensible mixture of capitalism and socialism over all of one or all of the other any day.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 07:19 PM

Tourism seems to be doing very well in Cuba without U. S. patronage. With Canadians, it is a popular winter destination. Also liked by the Euro group.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 06 - 10:15 PM

I am just a mongoloid fuckwad result of bad parenting with nothing to loose so I don't give a rat's ass about myself either. Everybody go away and leave me alone

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 12:34 AM

Yeah, and you can't spell either. If you could, you would still have something to lose.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:42 PM

http://www.sba.gov/pr/PR_ABOUTUS.html

Homepage for the SBA office in Puerto Rico & US Virgin Islands
                    
About Us

As the federal government's representative to the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands, the SBA's Puerto Rico and U.S. Virgin Islands District Office's mission is to maintain and strengthen the economies of both Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands by aiding, counseling, assisting and, protecting the interests of small businesses and by helping businesses and families recover from disasters. The District Office is committed to being the leading catalyst for economic development and disaster assistance. As a primary vehicle for financial and management and technical assistance, we will focus our efforts on encouraging a greater participation of our lending institutions and resource partners, to increase the small businesses' access to capital. We will promote all of our services, including federal procurement opportunities. We will offer targeted outreach that will enable us to provide educational programs and counseling, and ensure that our employees and resource partners are able to provide the highest quality of service. We are determined to reach out to small businesses in an unprecedented way, to listen to their needs and to report these needs back to the Administrator, and suggest appropriate initiatives to help small businesses.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:44 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:44 PM

Puerto Rico, with a GNP of $45.2 billion (2002 est.), has one of the most dynamic economies in the Caribbean region. Encouraged by local and remaining federal tax incentives, U.S. firms have invested heavily since the 1950s. Important industries include pharmaceuticals, electronics, textiles, petrochemicals, and processed foods. Agriculture, although representing only 3% of the labor force and approximately 1% of GDP, is centered in dairy production and livestock products. Tourism has traditionally been an important source of income representing approximately 7% of GDP, with estimated arrivals of nearly 3.9 million tourists annually, and employs 64,000 people. Manufacturing continues to decline and now represents approximately 40% of GDP contributing some $23.0 billion of a total GDP of $71.1 billion (2002). Employment in manufacturing has also declined from 22% in 1981 to 13.5% in 2000. Finance, insurance and retail services have undergone dynamic growth over the past decade and now account for 13% of GDP, contributing some $9.0 billion.

The foregoing notwithstanding, the Puerto Rican economy faces serious challenges arising from the loss of federal tax incentives and the continued weak global economy. While Puerto Rico's economy is one of the strongest in the Caribbean, it is still well bellow that of the poorest state on the Mainland -- Mississippi.

Puerto Rico is also a major market for U.S. Mainland retailers with household names such as JC Penney, Sears, Wal-Mart, Sam's Club, Marshall's, Home Depot, Big K-Mart, Costco, and Macy's. Annual retail sales in Puerto Rico are estimated to have totaled $15 billion in 2003. Average sales per square foot in Puerto Rico's shopping centers range from $600.00 to $700.00 compared to $115.00 to $522.00 on the U.S. Mainland. Puerto Rico ranks among the ten leading world customers of U.S. Mainland products, purchasing in excess of $15 billion annually. These purchases generate over 170,000 jobs on the Mainland. Puerto Rico's exports totaled $40 billion (FY 03) of which approximately 87% represented sales to the U.S. Mainland. If Puerto Rico were not part of the United States, it would represent the tenth largest trading partner.

The Island's labor force of 1.2 million (2000) by occupation is as follows: government 28%, manufacturing 13.5%, construction 8.6%, services 27.4%, finance 5.0%, retail 11.7%, and others 5.4%. Puerto Rico's labor force has either earned a college degree, acquired some college instruction, or is currently enrolled in an institution of higher learning. Reflective of this educated labor force is the literacy rate, which stands at 89% for the total population. The Island's per capita income is $9,634 and the average family income is over $25,000. The minimum wage is that promulgated by the U.S. Minimum Wage Laws. The unemployment rate is currently stated at approximately 12%. The inflation rate in Puerto Rico for calendar year 2000 stood at 5.7% vs. 2.5% on the U.S. Mainland. Among the 27 countries of the Caribbean and Central and South America, Puerto Rico is ranked 8th in GDP and 2nd in GDP per capita.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:52 PM

Its legal system is based on Spanish civil code (similar to the State of Louisiana) versus the system of Common Law practiced in the United States.

Puerto Rico became a U.S. territory in 1898 after four centuries as a Spanish colony. Its democratic form of government (subject to the U.S. Constitution was ratified and approved by the U.S. Congress 7/3/52) is that of a commonwealth associated with the U.S. consisting of three branches: Executive, Legislative and Judicial. Its indigenous inhabitants have been U.S. citizens since 1917 without the right to vote in U.S. presidential elections and likewise they pay no federal income taxes. An estimated 200,000 Puerto Ricans, many of them volunteers, have served in the U.S. Armed Forces since World War I. Its capital, San Juan, is one of 78 municipalities with elected Mayors. Island residents elect the Governor every 4 years. The Island residents also elect a non-voting representative (Resident Commissioner) to the U.S. House of Representatives to lobby for Puerto Rico's interests.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 05:53 PM

Good stuff. Now why did the the USA not do similar things in Cuba when it was under Batista? Why did they instead turn the island into a floating casino/whorehouse/playground for rich crooks from Florida and the rest of mainland USA?

Well, who knows? I guess maybe the scenery was nicer in Cuba or something. They've got wonderful beaches there, and Havana Harbour is something to see.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:40 PM

Damned if I know. thumbing through their history, it's a long story. It don't look pretty though. I guess Batista was a crook and the US looked the other way.

I'ts the old "He's a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch" like Saddam. A tough guy that gets things under control then gets corrupt.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 06:46 PM

Old Guy, cutting and pasting random things from various places around the net simply proves you know fuck all about the Caribbean Basin countries, and that you have a rudimentary grasp of how to conduct a basic google search, the ability to highlight text with your mouse, and that you know where on your toolbar the cut and paste commands are found.

As I said, you choose to compare apples to oranges to prove apples are better than oranges.

No one is buying what you are selling, which is 50 year old, grossly outdated thinking for the contemporary world.

I'm beginning to think you are, in fact, Rip Van Winkle's evil twin.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 08:34 PM

As you said of Batista: It's the old "He's a son of a bitch but he's our son of a bitch" like Saddam. A tough guy that gets things under control then gets corrupt.

Yeah, that sounds pretty likely to me. That's what usually happens. Castro's one great sin, you see, was that he threw out the rich American commercial concerns in Cuba...thus he wasn't seen as "our man" by Washington. If he hadn't done that, I'm sure he would have been quite acceptable to the USA, and he would have taken over from Batista and nothing much would have changed in Cuba. They would have remained a Caribbean center of gambling, prostitution, drug trading, and a cheap, illiterate labour force for big American tobacco and sugar companies.

They still make damn good cigars, I hear. And very inexpensive rum. ;-)

You can live nicely on $400/year in Cuba. You wouldn't believe how cheap stuff is down there...as long as it's locally made stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Aug 06 - 11:18 PM

Only a egocentric dickweed uses the tool bar to cut and paste. Are you using a Comodore 64?

Go send a get well card to The Bearded one Amigo.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Rman
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 07:49 AM

I have relatives in Puerto Rico and i can tell you for a fact there is no way they want independence from the US - because of all the subsidies. These subsidies are put into the infrastructure of the islands.

Unlike the Domenican republic where the US has fiscally annexed off the real islanders whilst catering for it's own greedy over rich consortiums.

Capitalism is shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:11 PM

So where do you choose to live? Assuming you have a choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 02:18 PM

I would actually like to live in a really nice place on the shore of a lake, but up on a higher spot, overlooking the water...with a forest in the back and sides...and no neighbours immediately adjacent, so I wouldn't have to listen to them playing some damned radio station outside in the good weather. I would like to be in a place that basically has no winter, eh? (grin) I'd like lots of mango trees, producing fresh mangos. Chongo and I see right eye to eye on that! I'd also like a private plane, an airstrip and a trained pilot, so I could go on trips here and there. I'd like to have a meditation hall on the property, and a music studio where I could record stuff and practice. Oh, and I'd like a date with Winona Ryder, but that's a subsidiary clause that doesn't have much to do with the place itself.

How's that?

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 03:28 PM

All of that is possible in the US, maybe Canada too but you have to work for it, that's the only hitch. Is it possible elsewhere like Cuba?

I have a place on a quiet lake higher up with some neighbors but no mango trees. I am trying to grow some Paw Paw trees which have a tropical tasting fruit. Something like a bananna.

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Aug 06 - 05:58 PM

Most of it is possible in most places...except for maybe the mangos and Winona. ;-) I'm too far north to grow mangos outside. I suppose I could grow them in a heated greenhouse if it was a really big one with a very high roof. Mango trees are pretty large trees.

Of COURSE you have to work for it....unless you inherit it from your rich family like Bush and Kerry both did. Then the working part is optional, but if you don't do something with your spare time people will notice and say nasty things about you...so the sons of the rich usually do end up working too.

Old Guy, I noticed when I was in Cuba that most of them are harder and better workers than North Americans...although they do seem to enjoy their leisure time more than we do and be more relaxed on the whole. So what is your point about "having to work for it"?

You implying that Cubans don't work or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Puerto Rico VS Cuba
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 07 Aug 06 - 01:15 AM

What is the most a Cuban can achieve if the works his ass off?

I am not saying they are lazy.