BS: Obama disappoints again

Subject: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:48 PM

Barack Obama was elected through a huge push from left-of-center voters, who expected him to pursue policies they identified with. He keeps failing to do this.

Not only did he escalate the war in Afghanistan (with the result that American deaths have doubled there compared to last year, not to mention civilian casualties), sign a half-assed health care "reform" bill (when most of his supporters wanted a public option, if not outright single-payer), and appear poised to pursue Sen. Dodd's banking "reform" bill (which does nothing to change Big Finance's risky and outright fraudulent practices).

Now he's delivered a slap in the face of environmentalists and reversed decades of preservation policies by opening sensitive coastal areas to oil and gas drilling.

I'm as progressive as most of the folks who had such high hopes when they got Obama elected, but I find myself in the strange company of the right in saying:

President Obama and his policies must be opposed.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: pdq
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 09:58 PM

I think he "softening up" conservatives so they will be more receptive to his up 'n' coming huge energy tax increases, which may nearly double the cost of gasoline and add about $3000 to the cost of heating the average house in the U.S. each winter.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM

He's doing just fine so far, except that I wish he'd spent more time getting Democrats in Congress to move on health care, rather than trying for a futile "bipartisan" bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:09 PM

I suspect it is part of a larger plan.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:19 PM

pdq - where is your info coming from re tax increases?

artbrooks - what do you mean he's doing just fine? It's Bush all over again.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 10:50 PM

No

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:02 PM

>>>pdq - where is your info coming from re tax increases?


That's what the oil industry lobby is saying Cap and Trade will do. I think they are exaggerating to scare you.

If cap and trade works and oil consumption decreases they are likely to make less money.

They are not saying that if consumption goes down, so will the cost of fuel.

Funny thing about that, only sharing the information that is in their best interest.

It is a little like lying isn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: michaelr
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:12 PM

Way to have a conversation, artbrooks.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Amos
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:46 PM

He's doing things quite differently than Bush would have imagined. It is unfortunate that Bush led the nation into a double-quagmire war situation. It is more tangled than eithe rof them probably thought it would get. I think Obama intends to get out but feels he has to meet certain minimal requirements of success there in order to leave it on the right path. This is an unfortunate burden; Colin Powell warned Bush about Iraq--you break it, you own it. The same is true of the Afghanistan and Pakistan war. Badly begun, they will not be simply ended and it is (in my opinion) ingenuous to either expect some magic fast and happy ending OPR to blame Obama for the situation in the first place.

That said, I would of course prefer he find some successful path out of both -- but given the realpolitik of the situation it is jejune to blame him for the state of affairs.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 11:47 PM

Cap and trade makes strange bedfellows.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Sawzaw
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:41 AM

I think this new Drill Drill Drill stance is a head fake.

He knows environmentalists will lobby Congress [remember the lobby proof Congress the promised?] into blocking any kind of drilling.

It is a lead in to an energy bill that will cripple our commerce, drive jobs overseas and raise the price of everything we buy including necessities like food.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:28 AM

I'm pretty sure he mentioned offshore drilling in his inauguration address. I KNOW he mentioned it in the state of the nation address. This is not a shocking new development. Attempts to make it so ring rather hollow and dishonest with me.

Paying more attention to Afghanistan was one of his campaign planks, iirc. It's certainly nothing he's been schtum about.

Obama is not left-wing. He's left of center but not that far from the center. Not nearly as progressive as some would like (myself included). I greeted his election with cautious hope. So far he's above 50%. Probably can't ask for much more.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:58 AM

Obama was never elected by a "huge push from left center" voters, and he has never been far left on any issue. He is a centrist, and he has stuck to it. I get a little tired of the far left crying because he deserted principles they ascribed to him based on their own imaginations. What were you going to do? Vote McCain/Palin?
This guy has done little, right? He's only
1)passed the first comprehensive health care plan in US history
2)prevented the entire collapse of the bank system along with the collapse of the economy in general, through clever manipulation of banks and their corporate investors
3)Launched wide ranging and comprehensive dialogue on environmental issues while doing what is necessary in the short term to enable some sustainability in domestic petroleum.

Give me a break...you're going to throw in with Palin, McConnell, and the Tea Party whackos because he's not liberal enough for you? Are you off your freaking meds, michael?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:27 AM

Perfect, LEJ.

As you point out, the question is whether "left center" voters have enough sense to back Obama and others who support him--especially in the coming fall election.

Based on some Mudcatters' postings, this is definitely an open question.

There's definitely a contingent here who believe in burning down the village in order to save it.   They were never enthusiastic about Obama--as is painfully obvious from their postings before the 2008 election--but now imagine Obama has an obligation to them.

They are also in all likelihood the posters who for instance rejected totally Olympia Snowe's "trigger"--the only way in this session they could have gotten--through the back door--the public option they claim to desire so fervently.

They are the ones--not just on Mudcat, obviously--who resulted in the unfavorable polls for the health reform plan, thus playing into the hands of Palin and the other reactionary opposition to the plan who were able to claim that Obama was going against the "wishes of the American people"---since these leftists rejected it for not going far enough

But for them it always is much more fun--and protects their fragile self-esteem-- to be ideologically pure than to actually get something done.


One of the fascinating aspects is the number of them who are also aggressive atheists--as opposed to the supposed atheists we also have who actually do think.

For some people it seems their catechism is political.   But they're just as ready to excommunicate you if you step off the path.




And I speak as a strong environmentalist, for whom environmental stands are a large determinant of whether I support a candidate.

But, like you, I'm also a realist.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:44 AM

The guy has broken many of his campaign promises....some people may be sick because of the "left are crying" about his policies...but I am bloody sick of people giving him a pass on every bad thing he does. He is a coward out for power, pandering to the rich, to the right, and leaving his base in the dust.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:47 AM

"...his base..."

QED

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Ron Davies
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:38 AM

And, as I recall, Amergin is even indeed a strong atheist. Fits perfectly.

Thanks for supporting my theory.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 10:02 AM

Sorry if I wasn't sufficiently voluble...I was having keyboard problems last night. I suppose that "he is absolutely unlike Bush in any way whatsoever" would have been a better response to "It's Bush all over again than "no".

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Riginslinger
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 10:23 AM

He reminds me of Ronald Reagan. Somebody is pulling the strings, but they don't want the public to know who it is.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 12:26 PM

Stilly - "I suspect it is part of a larger plan."

Sure. It's the same larger plan as always. Ever since John Kennedy, if not before. The corporates and the military-industrial complex run both political parties. Whichever political party gets in, it does exactly what the corporates and military-industrial complex want...but in its own particular superficial style...and little changes.

It takes the public awhile to get heartily sick to death of the Republicans' outward political style (which is aggressive, warlike, mean, and ruthless)...it may take 4 years, it may take 8 years, it may even take 12 years...but eventually the general public loses faith in the bastards. That's fine by the corporates, because they own the Democratic Party lock stock and barrel too, so when it's clear that the public is ready and hungry for "change", a Democrat is brought forward who appears to fit the bill nicely, and the Republicans get kicked out of the White House.

Everybody celebrates!!! ;-) Well, not everybody, but the majority do....

Then the new administration does its smoke and mirrors bit, acting according to the superficial Democratic style (say nice things about poor people, minorities, and the environment...act like you desire peace...), but the style doesn't mean much, because when it comes to actually policy, what do you get?

Well, you get massive financial giveaways and favors to the rich corporates (bankers, health insurance industry, oil industry, military industries), you get expansion of the wars the last administration commenced upon meaning you get MORE WAR, you get more of the same old stuff packaged in a nice bunch of rhetoric which doesn't sound Republican at all...

And you get fierce partisan fighting between the Republicans and the Democrats in Congress (and YES, they really mean it, because they hate each other's guts)...and that helps maintain the public illusion that there really is a genuine political choice at the polls, because it keeps them in the partisan frenzy they've always been in which gets them absolutely nowhere.

Elect the Democrats and they will betray you once in power. Elect the Republicans and they will betray you once in power.

And there is, for all practical purposes, no one else out there to elect!!! (due to the controlling influence of entrenched interests which control funding and the media)

Now....given all that, who would I have voted for in 2008? Why, Obama and Biden, of course! ;-) I mean, hell, I wouldn't elect McCaine and Palin for anything. ;-)

But it was set up that way from the getgo. The Republicans were supposed to lose the last election, because it was time for "change".

Not real change, mind you. Just a superficial change of outer appearance. A new set of curtains on the White House. A new smiling face to rule Oz. But who sees the little man (men) behind the curtain?

I will add to that that I like Obama, personally speaking. He's a smart and gifted man. But I think I have a fairly good idea where his orders really come from, and I don't think there's a darned thing he can do about it, unless he wants his political career wrecked or terminated rather earlier than he would hope for.

As Rig said, "Somebody is pulling the strings, but they don't want the public to know who it is." It's somebody you don't get to vote for (or against) at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: pdq
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:33 PM

Dwight D. Eisenhower warned us about the military-industrial complex, and just a few years later, Lyndon Johnsion showed us why we should have been worried.

Unfortunately, the military-industrial complex is just one of many.

Bankers, insurance brokers, professional investors, commodity speculators, etc. ad nauseum are all part of the same complex and are even owned by the same companies since Clinton signed a law in 1998. Bring back Glass-Steagall!

Right now, the country has been taken over by the government-media complex and we are seeing media-manipulation that passes for news and news that is presented to us by entertainers.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:40 PM

Yup. It's Orwell's 1984...but it's being done so much better than Orwell ever envisioned it. He had no idea how effective mass marketing can be when it's combined with the modern consumer economy/entertainment/media approach.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: gnu
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:46 PM

Q... Cap and trade makes strange bedfellows.

Sure does.

Health care passes. The trade is offshore drilling. Offshore drilling creates $$$ for the rich and for the increased costs of health care.

Now, I am NOT saying this IS. I am saying it might be. I'm just sayin, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 01:47 PM

michaelr: Want to be famous and revered for generations to come? I'll tell you how. Simply invent a automobile that doesn't require gasoline to operate it with.

Obama is merely making a stab at trying to move more toward the right of center. He's making a play to independent voters who were fooled by his rhetric during the campaign and thought they WERE voting for a center right candidate and have, since his election, awakened to the fact that Obama is indeed a left of center liberal.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:00 PM

Automobiles that don't require gasoline are already on the roads.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:02 PM

By the way, Obama has always been to the right of center. He's never been anything else but to the right of center, albeit just a hair to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:07 PM

Olberman was on last night complaining that it was "only" 63 billion of potential reserves. He had some environmentalist on saying that He was "throwing away 25 years of environmental tradition" or some such.

I was against "Drill Baby Drill" but only because the Republicans were offering it at a sufficient, short term solution to the high price of gas.

There are some things to consider. According to Olbermann half of 63 billion barrels would be 4.5 years of oil. I believe that would significantly cut the money we give to our enemies, help out balance of trade as we switch to renewable and provide some well-paying jobs along this coast, hopefully even here in the Port of Wilmington.

The original ban was placed due to southeast governors, particularly Florida and Virginia, being opposed due to possible damage to the tourist industry. Environmentalists claimed it as a victory but the politics were actually commercial.

I suspect that is why California's coast was not included.

Extraction technology has become cleaner and less wasteful since then and thus the risk to the beaches is less.

I agree with the move as a part of a comprehensive energy strategy. If the oil is there we are lucky that the ban was in place. Domestic oil is more valuable strategically because we are running out.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:16 PM

That really all depends on where you define the center. IMHO, the center is where the independents are, and I define independents as those who look at each issue separately and weigh its pros and cons before deciding. In some cases, they will fall to the right and others to the left.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:19 PM

michaelr I am sorry to hear that you are disappointed, but I am afraid it is your own doing.


Mousethief is right. Obama did talk about drilling before the election, you had a chance to change your vote.

It might be useful for you to start a thread listing other promises you expected and we can all discuss if those campaign promises are still in effect.

I have to say that I am not disappointed at all, considering the financial collapse, things are looking pretty much as expected. The only thought that occurs to me as the cause of that is that I heard different promises from you.

I am a little disappointed about Gitmo, but not with Obama. He tried. But I thought that was symbolic anyway. Frankly I am pleased to have a government that is not constantly saying that it is a good and useful thing to torture people.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:20 PM

I'm an independent, artbrooks. I would love to claim the center. But if I'm in the center, I can tell you, Obama ain't in here with me. And he's not to the "left" of me, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:28 PM

Gnu,

I don't think it is Health care at all.

I love you man. But Canadians don't have much room to complain to anyone about offshore drilling or "Cap and Trade" here I lived in Newfoundland when Hibernia was opened and a lot of my friends helped build the Alberta Tar Sands projects in Fort McMurray. I knew a girl who lost her husband on the Ocean Ranger. The folks offshore here will benefit from her loss.

Our Republican Senator Burr has released a statement saying that the drilling must be done responsibly. If he is that far left imagine how concerned our Democratic Senator and Governor are. I think it will be done as safely and cleanly as possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: michaelr
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:21 PM

It is not I who is disappointed - I had no great expectations for change to begin with; in fact I see things rather as Little Hawk has so eloquently laid them out above.

My point was that so many on the left ARE disppointed that their darling candidate turns out to be just another career politician who appears to be beholden to Big Business rather than the common good. The same thing happened with Clinton, remember?

Same shit, different year.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: kendall
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 07:33 PM

Doug, not only are there cars on the road that use no gasoline, there are cars that run on air! That's right, China has produced a car that will do 60 mph and go 200 miles on compressed air.

I wouldn't want to head on a semi with it. Come to think of it, I wouldn't want to head on a semi with any car.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: DougR
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:02 PM

I am well aware that there are cars on the road that do not use gasoline to operate. Even here in Arizona we have newspapers, TV, Radio, and don't even shoot Indians anymore.

However, Is there one that you can drive 200 miles without having to refuel? Are there ample service "stations" to serve a million cars that do not operate on gasoline? Are we ready today to replace the gasoline powered cars with another type that will fully perform as gasoline powered ones do?

The only problem with Obama's plan is it is not broad enough and it only allows for exploration. We need to start drilling NOW!

Carol C: Obama is "center right?" Yes, and I'm a liberal.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:05 PM

You're a reactionary, DougR. You're so far to the right, you make Ronald Reagan look like a liberal. You are way to the right of the center.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:19 PM

I think the correct title for this thread (and others) would be "Obama disappoints me again."

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:35 PM

I would say that Obama is just a tad to the right of center, and always has been. But he sounded left of center during the 2008 election, because that was what was needed at the time to get a lot of votes for the Democrats. The country had become very disillusioned with "right of center" politics during the Bush years, so it was time to tantalize them with a hint of left.

If you studied his actual policies, however, he was as Carol says, just a little right of center, whereas McCaine and Palin were WAY right of center. Way right of center was not going to win in that election. No chance.

My mother was a fervent Obama supporter (from outside the USA) during the election. She would get tears in her eyes listening to him. A lot of other Canadians felt the same way. Now she feels very disillusioned with him and says, "He's just like all the others."

As for Canadians in general, Obama still remains pretty popular with our populace. I think, in fact, that he is the best-liked politician in Canada by far....even though he's not here! ;-) Or maybe partly because of that?

People are astonished, however, that the US Congress would prefer to make a giant giveaway to the private health insurance industry by getting THEM millions more customers, instead of providing the entire American public with a universal public option such as exists in much of the rest of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 08:43 PM

I've been a leftie since I knew what a leftie was... My mom, bless her commie heart, brought me up this way... Until Obam the only other Dem (or Repub) presidential candidate I have even voted *for* was Jimmy Carter...

With that said, Obama isn't disappointing me... He understands the broken legislative branch and so he's takin' what he can get... Face it, the legislative branch is so boken that even Jesus would have to scale back... lol... Except it isn't all that funny...

If it were a different time with a functional legislature, which BTW would increase partisanship and cooperation, yeah, I'd be disappointed...

Hey, I voted for the guy because he is smart... That hasn't changed... He is still a refreshing alternative to the last 30 some years...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 10:37 PM

63 billion bbls of oil or whatever- it's all pie in the sky until it is proven by the drill.
Exploration will be cautious because of the expense of drilling the offshore prospects.
One disappointment recently is the drilling offshore from Argentina, in the Malvinas (Falklands) area. Very little encouragement from the first well. If the second also proves discouraging, exploration will go elsewhere. There were 'high hopes' for the area; they may never be realized.

The Alaskan offshore is highly questionable, for which I am glad since the area is so important to wildlife and fishing.

In other words, I don't expect a mad rush into the newly opened areas. With proven reserves for quite some time in other areas, why not continue to use them? Much cheaper in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: michaelr
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:24 AM

"People are astonished, however, that the US Congress would prefer to make a giant giveaway to the private health insurance industry by getting THEM millions more customers, instead of providing the entire American public with a universal public option such as exists in much of the rest of the world."

Exactly, LH. Except it's not that astonishing when you consider that there are ten lobbyists in Washington for every member of Congress.

And Bobert - I feel you, I do - it's wonderful to have an intelligent man in the White House. It's too bad he's continuing and even exacerbating so many of Bush's policies.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:55 AM

Rapaire: I think the correct title for this thread (and others) would be "Obama disappoints me again."

Or, simply, "Waaaah!"

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: GUEST,Neil D
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:14 AM

It's a mistake to compare President Obama to the progressive we wish we could have in the White House but never will. Compare him to the the opposition and he at least appears sane. The only reason Republicans think he is so far to the left is that they have moved so far to the right. Carol says Doug is so far to the left he makes Reagan look liberal. If that is true, that just makes him a mainstream Republican these days. Obama didn't win in 08 by just getting a great turnout from the base. That is never enough in a national election. You must get the independents and in 08 independents were soul-sick from the previous administration, scared to death of Palin and shocked at McCain's meltdown over the economy.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Sawzaw
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:20 AM

1 day after Drill Drill Drill:

"By model year 2016 vehicles must get an average of 35.5 miles per gallon. The requirements will add as much as $985 to a vehicle's initial cost, according to EPA estimates, but buyers will save about $4,000 on fuel over the life of the car, administration officials said."

That could be a good thing but how have they calculated that $4000?

Looks like they used $5 per gallon to calculate it.

Higher MPG = Less Demand = lower gas prices.

I am for cutting down on energy use and pollution.

Still, the poor man will have to pay more for a car while the rich guy can afford it. He will be saving money on gas while the poor guy is stuck with an old car.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:30 AM

Carol says Doug is so far to the left he makes Reagan look liberal.

I expect you meant that I said he is so far to the right.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:33 AM

Sawzaw, you make a good argument for Cap and Dividend. With Cap and Dividend (as opposed to Cap and Trade), big polluters would still pay for their carbon emissions, but the money would go to the taxpayers in a similar way that people in Alaska get a dividend from the oil companies for the oil they take from Alaska. This money could be used by the taxpayers to pay for more fuel efficient means of transportation.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:43 AM

The citizens of the US just have to get up off their dead asses, stop bitching, and start doing -- and I don't mean having "tea parties" and rallies, I mean actually doing the important things that need to be done.

As for Congress, Bobert's right. The Legislative Branch is more broken than the Ten Commandments.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 10:53 AM

It's hopeless. I think it might be best to dismantle the entire legislative apparatus and start afresh with something new. Only trouble is, if that happened I'm afraid it would be the wrong people entirely who would be in charge of the process...and things would probably get even worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 11:12 AM

Re: DougR's right/left orientation, ironically, when it comes to everyone else, he's a right-wing reactionary, but when it comes to the benefits he wants from the government himself, he's very much a socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:04 PM

>>Higher MPG = Less Demand = lower gas prices.

Still, the poor man will have to pay more for a car while the rich guy can afford it. He will be saving money on gas while the poor guy is stuck with an old car. <<

I think that the only fair way is to compare the cost without the measure to the cost with the measure.

If only from what you just said I think it is reasonable to assume that the investment equation is

Everyone spends on average 3000 more everyone saves 4000

But part of that savings is the price decrease from shrinking demand.

On the other hand, the poor man can pretty much reach that 36 MPG today by driving a small, light, conventional car without any luxuries. Maybe that's why they set that standard where it is. Of course the rich man can do that now too, but he doesn't, except to show how hip he is. But when he does, he spends the extra 4 grand on a Prius and far exceeds the standard. The real challenge is where the small cars and large cars, on average, as a fleet, get 36 mpg. Proportionally it is going to take a lot more expense and technology to increase the mileage of the rich man's car as opposed to the poor man's car. So the rich man with spend a lot more and save a lot more fuel and the poor man will spend about the same save no fuel and save some money. That looks like a pretty fair deal to me. As a not rich man driving a 33 mpg car I say "BRING IT ON!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Obama disappoints again
From: pdq
Date: 02 Apr 10 - 12:40 PM

...from an article showing even the most hyped small cars really don't get the gas mileage claimed:

"Indeed, Sandra is not alone in her assertions. Some independent test data suggests hybrid cars routinely get less than 60 percent of EPA estimates while navigating city streets.

The Prius has averaged only 35 mpg in some city driving tests, inidcating that there may be nothing out of the ordinary with Sandra's Prius, suggesting instead that the EPA numbers and Toyota mileage claims based on them are in error."

This is hardly news, and the poor "real world" performance of cars, as compared to EPA estimates, has been off by 20-40% from the begining.

Imagine, an expensive Toyota Prius being the average gas mileage vehicle. Who are these people trying to impress with this decision?