BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 01:58 PM

Steve, as I explained, I refer to EU/Dublin as a block because the nature of the border will be decided by EU.
Even Rag has accepted that.

I acknowledged from the start that a hard border will be detrimental to the Irish on both sides, but Dublin gets whatever EU decides.

And we do have a clue that border sovereignty was an issue for many voters because surveys found it to be and it was a major item of the leave campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:29 PM

Ah well Raggy, that's the trouble with "Biologist" Steve's SIDE - you fuckers wouldn't know Reality if it jumped up and slapped them about the face with a dead Flounder.

However, as usual, with you and your pals, while deriding something as being "bollocks", you somehow always seem to be unable to pick any holes in the line of reasoning or argument.

As someone who claims to read and listen to "news" from Ireland you seem to have forgotten that on two previous occasions the electorate of Ireland has said "NO" to the EU and on both occasions the EU told Ireland what to do and the Dublin Government secured the vote that the EU wanted and the electorate of Ireland did not.

What sort of border there will be between the EU and the UK will be dictated by the EU as far as their side of it goes ( - that Raggy is reality and another is that the Republic of Ireland is on the EU's SIDE ( "Biologist" Steve likes sides).

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:42 PM

" 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. "
Keith
What Kineally said, in full
"interpretive distortions'
Your interprative distortions" referred to the fact that up to independence, no history including the Irish point of view was taught - none whatever.
Following independence, the new regime began to teach the bit that was banned - filling in the gaps and including the national Liberation struggles
These were filling in the gaps left by British censorship – the famine, the mass evictions, the forced emigrations, the land wars of the late 19th early 20th century, the centuries of national liberations rebellions – all the facts that had been left out of the British history books and had never taught in schools prior to independence
They were "simplistic" because, thanks to British administrations, they had never been deeply researched – they were there to give the Irish the culture that had been suppressed – no historian has ever at any time claimed that the facts were inaccurate, just that they were "simplistic".
This form of education, as Kinealy point out, went on till the late 1930s when, thanks to 'The Emergency', Ireland entered into economic crisis and needed a place to send its emigrants – Britain was the natural place to go
That's when the revisionists moved in and began writing history without blaming anybody 'value-free history'
All the bad deeds under British rule were totally ignored and an anodyne account was taught in schools
A typical example was that, up to that point, there was not a single work dealing with Ireland's great disaster - which included gross mismanagement, an accusation by the relief administrator that the famine was "God's Punisment"
The first book totally dedicated to "Ireland's Holocaust" ' The Great Hunger' did not appear until 1962, nearly 120 years after the events – and written by an Englishwoman, and that, while it castigated Britain for its cruelty, avoided political analysis – It certainly never CONTAINED ANY OF THESE DETAILS
It was not until the 150th anniversary of the famine in 1995 that Britain's role was examined in any depth and revealed the deliberate nature of the mismanagement.
The same with the 1917 uprising – it has taken a century to deal with it in any detail – now the Irish shops are full of scholarly studies.
Kinealy, who you quote without having read what she has to say , now totally supports Tiim Pat Coogan's view that the Famine was deliberately mismanaged. – but you have already agreed that
Britain has now officially apologised for its deliberate mismanagement o tha famine
For Christ's sake, if you are going to quote historians, read what they have to say instead of grabbing unrelated passages and quoting them out of context.
Irish historians are now back to examining Irish history in full and her Maj has all but apoliogised for history Britain's part in Irish history as a whole .
"It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss ... with the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we wish had been done differently, or not at all." "It is a sad and regrettable reality that through history our islands have experienced more than their fair share of heartache, turbulence and loss ... with the benefit of historical hindsight we can all see things which we wish had been done differently, or not at all."
MADGE SAYS SORRY
Al
If you believe Caement was a criminal, then so was Ghandi, Mandela, Moishe Dayan….. and every other national liberator who has fought for their country's cause
If any of you lot have any evidence that what was taught in schools was false – feel free to point it out.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 03:45 PM

"but Dublin gets whatever EU decides."
Typical flag wagger
If Britain goes for a closed border Ireland gets the six counties back - even the North will not stand fro that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:30 PM

Up until 09.51am this thread had been fairly reasonable, tolerant and given the various protagonists polite, even the professor and myself have conducted yourselves with a good degree of sense.

However, one poster, who has in the past complained vociferously about personal abuse has posted:

"Thanks for asking that rather childish and idiotic question "Biologist" Steve. Reveals and speaks volumes about you"

and

"Ah well Raggy, that's the trouble with "Biologist" Steve's SIDE - you fuckers wouldn't know Reality if it jumped up and slapped them about the face with a dead Flounder"

This one poster has altered the entire tone of the discussion, the same poster who has objected so much to abuse in the past.

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:38 PM

"Steve, as I explained, I refer to EU/Dublin as a block because the nature of the border will be decided by EU.
Even Rag has accepted that"

Sorry KAOH I have not "accepted" that, although there MAY be some discussion to be had there.

The ONLY point I have argued is that DUBLIN does not want a hard border.

At present it would seem that the only party in this debate who DO want a hard border is the Democratic Unionist Party who hold the balance of power within the present UK Government.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 04:45 PM

"If Britain goes for a closed border Ireland gets the six counties back - even the North will not stand fro that"
Jim Carroll

Hope so Jom, but unfortunately what you state above is based on a founding assumption that to use Raggy's word is "Bollocks" because you see Jom - Britain is not going "for a closed border" as you put it. As Keith A has been at pains to point out it will be the EU who will dictate the border on the Irish side, not Britain, not London, not the Republic of Ireland, not Dublin.

But anyway the EU insist on a hard border, it is then up to the electorate of Northern Ireland to decide whether or not they want to be in the EU, and place that over all previous differences. They then call for a referendum, as is their right. They vote for Union and then the electorate of the Republic then get their chance to agree to that union with a referendum of their own. The Government of the Republic then get to take on an additional 1.8 million people along with all their advantages and problems. Irish unity would then have been brought about by concerns over trade instead of by the gun and bomb.

My guess? Northern Ireland will not vote for union over Brexit, they, like sensible people, will wait and see how it pans out. As for the electorate of the Republic I do not think that they will wish to take on the financial burden of the North.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

Oh dear Raggy:

Raggytash - 27 Aug 17 - 12:52 PM

"I should add that he is clinging on to that one quote rather than lose face, he really is a sad little cretin."

How civil, pleasant and reasonable of you.

Raggytash - 27 Aug 17 - 12:50 PM

"I know you think that personal abuse should not come into the equation but as another poster once said what do you do with a "Thick c**t"

Another example of what Raggy thinks is "fairly reasonable, tolerant and given the various protagonists polite, even the professor and myself have conducted yourselves with a good degree of sense.

Raggy you are a complete and utter JOKE.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 05:36 PM

Would you like me to trawl back through your posts Teritowel.

I am confident that you are far more aggressive than any other poster on this site.

Ever thought of taking an Anger Management course?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:03 PM

I missed the bit where Ghandi toured POW camps and tried to persuade members of his ethnic group to fight for Germany. Or where he tried to import guns to kill Englishmen.

Obviously that was left out of our textbooks.

England's behaviour contrasts so dramatically with the wise compassionate line on traitors taken by the IRA.

I certainly had been told about the Irish famine of the 1840's by the last year of my primary school in 1960. We were also told about England's disgraceful behaviour towards the people of Ireland. It was in our textbooks.

the relentless line about the perfection of Ireland gets a bit wearing you know.
Even Keith and Teribus aren't daft enough to pretend that.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 06:08 PM

Actually, Raggytash, I rather like being called "Biologist Steve",though what biology has got to do with this thread does escape me somewhat. Anyway, to be called such a nice name by "Historian-manqué Bill" is rather a privilege. 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 08:47 PM

you get called all sorts of stuff on mudcat. sometimes you'd be made of iron not to get offended.

by and large. i suppose we ask for it - hanging round on this site. after a while you know which characters are going to trot out which insults.
basically theres two classic ploys to avoid saying 'you have made a fair debating point':-
1) gratuitous insult
2) cut and paste a load of garbage that no one has time to read

where does the biology jibe have its origins?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 02:31 AM

The "biologist jibe" Big Al comes from Steve Shaw boasting of his University degree and his specialisation in "The (in)glorious Twelfth" Thread. Where he attempted to academically intimidate and put down Iains who was absolutely slaughtering him in the discussion point by point - there was also something about Shaw's belief that:

- Heather (Calluna vulgaris), the sole species in the genus Calluna in the flowering plant family Ericaceae found widely in Europe and Asia Minor was not natural - On the other hand I do believe that the vast expanses of heather that can be found in Scotland are perfectly natural and that no-one planted them.

The thread which was proving to be very informative, in quite a number of ways, was closed for some obscure reason - ours not to fathom why.

Liked your point about debate indicators Big Al - Raggy has just demonstrated it perfectly. Having danced on the head of a pin over Keith A's "throw away remark" for long enough he reacted exactly in the manner described when the reality of the situation, i.e. that Eire is a member of the EU and will have to abide by the decision the EU Commission makes on the border between the North and the South when the time comes - The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland on the other hand can have whatever border they want and decide upon on their side and, as Keith A has pointed out a definite statement has been made by the British Government that they wish to see no change in the nature of that border.

Also totally agree with you on the attempts to portray "Oirland" as being an idyll of peace, tranquillity, equality, harmony and prosperity in the days before the arrival of those nasty Normans.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:13 AM

in truth its more the repeated claims of total blamelessness of Ireland for its many problems that piss me off.

its so bleeding obvious that it kept worrying at religious differences that the rest of the UK was getting secular and sensible about. not only that - they export this trauma. my own mother was threatened by Irish priests as a child with hellfire and damnation, because for some reason she wasn't brought up like the other kids in the family as a Catholic.

I think she spent the rest of her life trying to compensate for that - trying to be as holy as her sister, albeit as a Quaker. guilt merchants!

on your other point. To state the bleeding obvious once again. THe UK can't have whatever border it likes. It has to reach agreement with people on the other side of the border. Which leads me to think - we should up sticks and leave them to it. They want to be part of the EU - great! Let 'em go for it!

whatever happens, they're going to blame us. being blamelees must be marvellous. i suppose its the burden of all that original sin - its got to be shared out somehow.

Steve has every right to be proud of his academic achievement. i wish i had a few more. i suppose the heather is a bit like the hydrangea and the coypu rat. welcome immigrants. if only we could get the hairy mammoth back on the same basis!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:28 AM

"Jom,"
My you really are an insecure little flower
Your bulling attempts to talk down people are living examples of little the Britain strutting that plundered the world for cunturies and left behind a legacy of destroyed cultures and impoverish people
Pakistan is at present remembering the million dead that partition brought to that part of the world
"it will be the EU who will dictate the border on the Irish side, not Britain"
It is the Little England, racist nature of Brexit that has brought about a situation of ruined economies and a possibly destroyed peace process.
Blaming Europe for the consequences and above all, the total incompetent way the Prime Minister has handled theses negotiations really is a joke.
Your "guess" as to whether the six counties will remain is on per with the amount of thought that has gone into this whole sorry affair, which has included billion£ bungs to political parties with terrorist connections at a time when the Government screams poverty whenever the health service is mentioned.
Your crowd has degraded Britain - its efforts on negotiation have become a daily running joke and any claims of democracy have become, like Woody Guthrie's soup - "so thin you could read a newspaper through it"
Rule Britannia eh !!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:44 AM

"To state the bleeding obvious once again. THe UK can't have whatever border it likes. It has to reach agreement with people on the other side of the border."

Graphic illustration to disprove the above:

Eire - X to XX - Border - Northern Ireland

Where X = vehicle and goods checks, XX = checks on persons (Passport Control)

Everything on the Eire side of the border is dictated to the Irish Government by the EU Commission as the Republic of Ireland is an EU Member State and MUST abide by rules set by the EU Commission.

What happens on the UK side of the border is decided by the UK and as shown above that can consist of nothing (OUR choice - which is the whole point of leaving).

Your assumption on "Heather" is incorrect it is a species of plant life indigenous and native to the British Isles.

"Biologist" Steve can be as proud as he likes but what he has no right to do is to attempt to say in a discussion that "You cannot contradict me because I've got a degree in (whatever) and you must accept what I say". Which is basically what he did on that thread - Iains however stood his ground and subsequently demonstrated, with relevant links to back his argument up, that he did know what he was talking about.

The "Irish" have been fighting the "Irish" since the beginning of time (Note to Gnome and to Raggy in this context the phrase "the beginning of time" is merely an expression - it does not mean literally from the beginning of time). The very first thing they embarked on having won their "independence" was a civil war.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:56 AM

The UK can't have whatever border it likes. It has to reach agreement with people on the other side of the border

That is true, but our aim is to achieve an open border, and if that is not achieved it will be because the other side does not want it.
That will hurt Ireland but EU is willing for its members to take a hit as long as UK is hurt too.

What they fear above all is UK emerging unscathed or more prosperous after leaving. They will accept a high price to be paid by remaining members like Ireland to avoid that.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:01 AM

Ah Carroll my little whinging scouser, to me, you will always be - Jom - an incoherent ranting prat who gets so apoplectic that he cannot even get his own name right.

Here by way of an example you have done yourself proud - a real "Jom" classic - "examples of little the Britain strutting that plundered the world for centuries and left behind a legacy of destroyed cultures and impoverish people - effin' Priceless!!!!

What legacy of destroyed cultures Jom? What impoverished people?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:01 AM

"Heather (Calluna vulgaris), the sole species in the genus Calluna in the flowering plant family Ericaceae found widely in Europe and Asia Minor was not natural - On the other hand I do believe that the vast expanses of heather that can be found in Scotland are perfectly natural and that no-one planted them."

This is all based on a complete misunderstanding both of what I said in the thread and of how plant communities come about. As I have no wish to "boast" about my academic prowess (oh, how the jealous and educationally-deficient do moan!), I won't belabour the thread with further explanations. Perhaps someone could be arsed to start a dedicated heather thread, in which I'd be delighted to put both "Historian-manqué Bill" and Iains right apropos of their lack of knowledge. Naturally, it would be an uphill struggle, as with any endeavour that has to begin at point zero, but I believe I'd be man enough to address the task.   

On the substantive, all we want to know is how Keith knows that Dublin WANTS a hard border. Stop shirking that very very very very VERY simple issue, Teribus. Otherwise you make yourself look like the willing captain of a ship of fools.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

God, is he still at it?

"Your assumption on "Heather" is incorrect it is a species of plant life indigenous and native to the British Isles."

No-one has said any different. I haven't seen anyone making that assumption. You accuse others of being too apoplectic to get things right, etc., yet you yourself routinely misread posts, fail to follow threads before wading in feet-first and regularly completely misrepresent others. Go and have a lie down. The older you get, the worse you become.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:12 AM

That simple issue Shaw is relates to a question that you and your pals have asked of Keith A and I believe that he has fully explained it.

Now here is an equally simple issue for you and your pals to address:

The EU Commission dictates that hard borders must be imposed between the EU and non-member states - Does Eire as an EU member state comply with that ruling or is it free to negotiate it's own arrangements regarding the border between it and the UK?

Wonder how well they will cope with EU correspondence after we leave and English is no longer an "official" EU language.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:12 AM

no our aim is to leave the EU.

i was watching nigel lawson on late night telly a couple of days ago.

he was saying, that basically the remainers didn't understand that the game has moved elsewhere. the areas of rapid economic expansion in the world are the pacific nations and we have to get our relationship sorted out with these countries, tying up with Europe would screw that up.

its a point of view i hadn't considered.

either way - we can't afford to get bogged down with Ireland still re-jigging the Battle of the Boyne.

they've wanted independence for yonks. let them have it for gawdsake. they deserve each other.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:15 AM

Couldn't agree more with what you have stated in your last post Big Al.

The "game" has indeed moved on.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:30 AM

Dublin should tell the EU that if a hard border is to be imposed on them, they will leave too.
Perhaps, in private, they do.

Steve, of course Dublin does not want a hard border, but it is part of EU.
EU/Dublin does want a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:31 AM

"Ireland still re-jigging the Battle of the Boyne."
You seem to have found your level with out two Little Englanfders Al
May you be very happy together
"Ah Carroll my little whinging scouser, to me, you will always be - Jom -"
Yup - insecure as ever - with a lack of imagination that has never taken you beyond a typo for invective
To me you will be the epitome of the worst of a dead Empire and, from the looks of it, a Britain that has been sunk by its own self-importance and fear of anything foreign
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:38 AM

Steve Shaw - 29 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

God, is he still at it?

"Your assumption on "Heather" is incorrect it is a species of plant life indigenous and native to the British Isles."

No-one has said any different. I haven't seen anyone making that assumption.

Now let us just refresh our memories shall we Shaw:

"Little if any heather moorland in the UK is natural vegetation." - Steve Shaw

Are you now denying that you wrote that Shaw?


In actual fact Shaw the UK possesses 75% of all the natural heather moorland left on the planet it is environmentally more endangered than the rain forest.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:40 AM

Well you never know Jom your new word "cunturies" might just make it into the new Irish dictionary

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:57 AM

Just for Teritowelling

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 04:59 AM

Think the likes of yourself and Jom would get more benefit out of it Raggy.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 05:27 AM

Not a pray Teritowelling, I seldom get angry about life and certainly not by things on this forum.

However, I am concerned about others, I do feel empathy, sympathy and sometimes pity with and for other people, I care about people.

I cannot recall one single post from yourself where such emotions have ever been apparent, that course on the link may do you a lot of good.

These might be a start.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 05:36 AM

"Dublin should tell the EU that if a hard border is to be imposed on them, they will leave too."

Why would they? Only an idiot would vote to leave there EU.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 07:00 AM

"Think the likes of yourself and Jom "
Not just me then - you feel inferior to everybody
"cunturies"
More typos, - havve you really nothing more to offer othan these and a cowerdly behavior you would never dare present anybody face to face?
Grow up for Gods sake - cyber-blustering from the safety of distance and anonymity appears to be the level you have never risen above
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 08:05 AM

Jim I haven't called you a name.

You call me a Little Englander.

All I'm saying is that the endless litany of Irish blamelessness and English villainy...well if it doesn't insult your intelligence - it should do.

They're two countries. THey've tried living together. It doesn't work.

Time for a divorce. You get to keep the Eurovision Song Contest, the Euro, the Daniel O'Donnell cds.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 08:29 AM

https://ec.europa.eu/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen_en

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway%E2%80%93Sweden_border

The issue of a border between the north and south of Ireland can be as simple or as complex as the participating sides want it to be.
Border controls have had no uniformity for a considerable time.
Norway is in the Schengen area but not in the EU and shares a long border with Sweden(EU member). The UK is in the EU but not part of the Schengen area.

Is the purpose of border controls to control the passage of people, or goods, or both? In recent years the supposed threat of terrorism has been used to suspend/alter the schengen agreement for various lengths of time.
To my mind having passport control at an airport is just to irritate people. The passenger manifests have a complete passenger profile before departure. Anyone flagged could be easily met at the gate, prior to the remaining passengers deplaning.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 10:35 AM

"You call me a Little Englander"
A reference to what you wrote
Your dismissive attitude to what I said is as good as name calling as far as I'm concerned and your refusal to respond to what I wrore is insulting
You described Britain's role in Ireland as keeping the fighting Irish apart - racist stereotyping, just as "still re-jigging the Battle of the Boyne" - and, "they deserve each other".
It is those who regard themselves as "British" who are still fighting 'The Battle of the Boyne' - Irish people walked away from that centuries ago, but it is still foisted on them every 12th of July by aggressive little men in bowler hats sporting Orange sashes and screaming "fuck the Pope"
It's about time that Britain took responsibility for such savagery rather than walking away from the mess they created.
If you want a discussion, be civil enough to respond to what people have to say or live with the consequences.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 12:38 PM

Rather off thread, but apropos "Biologist Steve". There was a cartoon in New Scientist a few weeks back where Satan is saying something like "Welcome, professor Jones. Let me introduce Mr Smith who once read something about your speciality on the internet and will be lecturing you about it."

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 01:17 PM

severely off topic. apropos biologist steve.
ALBERT EINSTEIN. In 1894, at the age of 15, he had dropped out of 'high school'—a classical gymnasium in Munich—and had spent the next year or so with his family in Italy.In 1895, he took and failed the entrance examination at the Eidgen ̈ossiche TechnischeHochschule (hereafter the ETH) in Zurich—Federal Institute of Technology He then spent a year in a Swiss high school, from which he graduated in the spring of 1896. That diploma permitted him to enroll in the ETH,which he attended until his graduation in the summer of 1900.He did not distinguish himself in the eyes of his teachers at the ETH, and his prospects upon graduating were poor. His determined efforts to attain a university assistantship were utterly unsuccessful. Equally unsuccessful were his efforts to find a job teaching in a secondary school. He survived for several years in a series of temporary teaching and tutoring jobs. Finally, in mid-1902, the father of his friend Marcel Grossmann helped him obtain a position as a patent examiner (Technical Expert 3rd class, to begin) at the Swiss Patent Office in Bern, where he remained until 1909.
Not exactly a beacon of shining academic excellence was our Einstein.
He more than made up for it later.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 01:48 PM

would it be uncivil to point out that the much derided sash wearers, fuck the pope merchants and painters of murals depicting heroic merciless gunmen are your fellow Irish men?

actually, i thought you were English.

Most Irish people I know aren't as keen on the stirring the shit. however there seems enough of you pointing a finger at the other guy to make any outsider wonder where its going to end.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 02:03 PM

B Al W. Pointing out that they are also Irish rather destroys the pet narrative of our resident hate merchant that seems to use every opportunity to denigrate both the Irish and English.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 02:54 PM

there's no joy in winning an argument.

i've known good people - really good people - on both sides of the divide.

its too bloody easy to be calling names and perpetually finding fault.

they need to look for that goodness in their beighbours.

too often - they let the name callers and trouble makers set the agenda. you could say that about us, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 03:03 PM

"are your fellow Irish men?"
And how many times do I have to repeat that I AM NOT IRISH
A curse on all politically motivated religions wherever they come from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 05:36 PM

So, Iains. Will you now care to tell us what was the point of your Einstein post? Are you perhaps using his story to rubbish formal education? Are you promoting the idea that a degree in Common Sense from the University of Life is more valuable than the real thing? Are you saying that teachers are basically shit so who needs them? Are you hailing the cult of philistinism? Or are you jealous because you twatted around (or, more unkindly, were not really clever enough to make it) instead of working hard to get your academic qualifications, like Teribus? Do apprise us!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 07:43 PM

Now let us just refresh our memories shall we Shaw:

"Little if any heather moorland in the UK is natural vegetation." - Steve Shaw

Are you now denying that you wrote that Shaw?


In actual fact Shaw the UK possesses 75% of all the natural heather moorland left on the planet it is environmentally more endangered than the rain forest..."

It's tough, innit, Bill. Unfortunately, you have no idea what the word "natural" means in this context. Why not take it outside? Start a heather thread. I know you won't, because both you and I know that all you've said on this emanates from both your ignorance and your insecurity. Go on, give it a whirl. Start a heather thread and I'll take you to pieces. But not here. Wrong place entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 07:58 PM

She was so natural, was Heather
Never shaved under her arms
Oh what a raver!
She didn't use a shaver
I think that was part of her charm.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Aug 17 - 08:30 PM

Stoppit, Al, you're getting my hormones flowing...

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 05:09 AM

"Do apprise us!"
Getting rattled Shaw? Do you seriously think you are the only person on this forum with a BSc, MSc, PhD, or chartered status? Your assumed superiority and polymathic skill set may have worked on your hapless, young and naive pupils, but in the real world where some of us work using real science, we find it best to retain a little humility. The passage of time and additional research has a nasty habit of overturning longheld beliefs.
As an example when Libby introduced carbon dating it was thought to be the bees knees. Relatively simple and accurate. Later research proved this idea wrong on both counts. Correcting C14 to produce accuracy is complex and ongoing.
I do not have the feeling of inferiority that I should need to quote half the alphabet after my name to give substance to my argument. I prefer it to rise or fall on it's own merit. You know the old adage Shaw: Those that can, do..................
Having been a consultant since about 1982 I do not have any need to prove anything, least of all to an insecure little man like you.
Unlike you I do not worship qualifications. They are useful, but many people without formal qualifications also make significant contributions to science. The net worth of the individual is far more important than the number of bits of paper he/she can wave around (and I do not mean financial worth)
As I have said to you before-learn a little humility!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:06 AM

"learn a little humility!"
I take it this is a 'note-to-self Iains
The permanently arrogant tone of your postings indicates that it needs to be
"Pointing out that they are also Irish rather destroys the pet narrative of our resident hate merchant"
How so - surely it doesn'ty matter what colour shape or size bigotry presents itself in?
The only "hate merchants" here are those who preeminently display their hatred of the "brainwashed" Irish who were tricked into demanding what was rightfully theirs by "foreigners".
Pleae read, mark and inwardly digest the note yoyu have just written to yourself
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Iains
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:14 AM

The only yo yo posting is you jimbo

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:16 AM

maybe.....

i was always rubbish at academic stuff. Most days I am still haunted by the humiliations and punishments heaped on me by teachers.

struggled with everything 11 plus, o levels, a levels, teacher training cert., open university degree.

but it was a struggle. i don't think ever anyone accused me of being clever.

i always felt like i was in a game intended for someone else. someone cleverer than me.

we need the clever kids to be doctors and lawyers. but the system plays rough with the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM

I find it quite ironic that you choose to crow about your own University Of Life "qualifications" whilst decrying mine, which, as a matter of fact, I rarely think about and even more rarely mention. I'm very comfortable with mine, thank you, whilst your rather ranting post betrays your massive insecurities and, quite possibly, a touch of jealousy. Go on, tell us more about your consultancy work in your world of science. I promise not to accuse you of braggadocio. The science you throw at us, along with your rambling and irrelevant distractions about Einstein and radiocarbon dating, is unconvincing, relying far more on links that you don't comment on than on structured argument. When you do try to comment on the facts you generally argue from ignorance, same as Teribus, and you pepper it all far too much with emotion and splenetic outbursts, same as he does. Science looks for consensus. In that regard at least, the two of you are among the most "unscientific" people I've ever come across.

It's also very amusing that both you and Teribus feel qualified to comment on my teaching career though neither of you have ever seen me in action nor are knowingly acquainted with any pupil I've ever taught. It's a bit like my presuming to comment on your sex life based entirely on the content of your postings here. In other words, try not to be so silly.

"Do you seriously think you are the only person on this forum with a BSc, MSc, PhD, or chartered status?"

Another attribute of careful science is that it deals in accuracy. I don't enjoy any kind of chartered status, nor do I have an MSc or a PhD, and I've never claimed any of them. The fact that you can come out with that falsehood over such a simple matter is hardly a good indication that we can trust anything else you say, is it?