BS: Can McCain comand?

Subject: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:05 AM

Has he had relevant experience?
I think "yes" and I think that Wes Clark overstated the case against him on Meet the Press.
NPR article on McCain's command experience.
McCain's Navy Squad.

The qualities shown in this article are admirable. But are they Presidential? The cheerleading aspects remind me, uncomfortably of a certain, less than successful President's style.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:28 AM

I don't think the experience of leading a squadron of military people necessarily equates to an ability to lead a nation of civilians. I'm remembering the father of someone I knew when I was growing up. Her father was in the Coast Guard (in command of a ship, if I remember correctly). He ran his household the way he ran his ship, and I remember that I was really glad I didn't live in that household. He was quite dictatorial. The kids weren't even allowed to sit on their beds after they had been made.

Military command experience doesn't necessarily equate to civilian leadership experience. We don't need another dictator.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM

What's worse than a dictator, in my opinion, is a front man like Ronald Reagan. It was never really clear who was running him, but obviously somebody was, and what they did to the country wasn't pleasant.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM

There were thousands of US POW's... Maybe all of them should run, too???

Give me a break!!!

We have seen this past week just what kind of President McCain would be and that is another Big Mouth with a bad temper... Not exactly the qualities needed for the 21 century6, thank you...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:59 AM

So McCain took an average, or perhaps below average, unit and made it into a much better one by making sure that the right pegs were in the right holes and through personal leadership. Sounds good to me, although it hardly makes up for what are (IMHO) significant deficiencies in his personal and political points of view.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:18 AM

The big question is: can he turn America around from being a big, dumb imperial warmonger? And the obvious answer is no.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 11:26 AM

Leading civilians isn't the same thing as leading military people. Military people under one's command are the subordinates of the commander. Civilians are the employers of the government officials, and as such the government is the subordinate of the civilians. Many government officials (especially the Bush administration) seem to have forgotten this. We don't need more of that sort of thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:55 PM

Hell, anybody with a few brain cells can act the part of a commanding officer.

The issue is can he make the right decisions BEFORE he starts giving commands????

That's the key. And I don't feel comfortable that McCain really can.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM

He'd make an absolutely classic commander in a "Doctor Strangelove" scenario.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

The first election I can remember being aware of was 1952, when I was in 7th grade. We were sorta asked in English class if we knew about it and asked who we'd prefer. The overwhelming choice was Eisenhower, because "he was a military man, and we were in Korea"....and of course, we had no idea who this Adlai Stevenson was.

   The same basic reasoning is being used today, except that those who support McCain fail to comprehend (or just ignore) that while Eisenhower had been Supreme Commander and overseen organization and strategy for the entire army, McCain was a mid-level flyer whose entire claim to fame was 'resisting torture'. His Senate career has been sorta average, and if he hadn't been **John McCain, war hero** would barely be noticed.
   McCain's recent attempts to pretend that he is already influencing 'policy', while forgetting his own quotes on various subjects would have me rejecting him if he was a Democrat!

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:31 PM

There are a lot of people in Guantanamo who are resisting torture. Maybe we should have one of them run for president too.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:37 PM

The question there Little Hawk is, If one of them won the Presidency would he be able to get himself out of Guantanamo by pardoning himself? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: olddude
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:11 PM

Throughout history of the US, the worst presidents were ex military men. Also, he is so committed to the military that my fear is we will stay in GW's dumb a#@ war forever ... I am just sick of the whole thing. Give me a good old skirt chasing Clinton type again please !!

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:40 PM

BillD,

Speaking of '52, did ya see where Ike's grand-daughter is organizin' a Repubs for Obama group???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:55 PM

The worst presidents were ex military men? Huh - George Washington did ok, and so did James Monroe, Andy Jackson and Abraham Lincoln. U.S Grant wasn't much of a much, and neither was JFK. Harry Truman was pretty good, and both Teddy Roosevelt and Ike had their moments. George H. W. Bush did alright, within his personal parameters, as did Gerald Ford. I refuse to categorize what George W. Bush did as military service.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 07:20 PM

He didn't say that ALL ex-military men are the worst presidents. He said that the worst presidents have BEEN ex-military men. There's a difference.

By the way, I don't necessarily think that Lincoln was a very good president, although it's certainly debatable. I think the fact that he commanded during a victorious war and the fact that he died in office combined to turn him into a saint after the fact, so to speak, but I'm not so sure that he was really all that good a president.

As for Andrew Jackson, he was a ruthless s.o.b. who murdered Indians wholesale, broke treaties, and stole their lands. I don't admire him one bit.

One more aside: The USA has also had some wretchedly poor presidents who were NOT ex-military men. How about Hoover and Nixon and LBJ?

Kennedy was an interesting case. He was a real Cold Warrior, and not necessarily such a good president...but....he had the ability to inspire people. That counts for a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 08:20 PM

Nixon is a strange case. In terms of skill and intelligence. He was, I think, one of the best Presidents. But his flaws were worthy of a Greek tragedy.

LBJ was a fine legislator who got equal rights legislation through. He could not have been more wrong about Viet Nam.

Hoover sucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:53 PM

"Hoover sucked."

Well, if it hadn't, ya'da taken it back for a replacement, no?

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM

Had a Kirby, myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: pdq
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:36 AM

Better than what we had way back when: Royals.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Whistle Stop
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Just lurking around here, which I still do on occasion. Just wanted to point out that Nixon was an ex-military man: he reached the rank of Lieutenant Commander in the US Navy during WWII. In fact, after the war (and after leaving military service) he campaigned for his first Congressional seat in uniform, and introduced himself as "Lieutenant Commander Nixon." His wartime exploits weren't as noteworthy as Kennedy's though; I think he worked in some Pacific Ocean supply depot.

I think LBJ was ex-military also. As was Carter, for that matter (US Navy, nuke sub program). And, of course, we have had many military men run for President and lose: recent examples who won the nomination but lost the election include McGovern, Dole, Gore, and Kerry.

I'm ex-military myself, and I'd make a lousy President.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: pdq
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 11:35 AM

Here are the presidents who did not serve in the military.
11 or 12 -see LBJ note - of the total of 43 chief execs:

John Adams
John Quincy Adams
Martin Van Buren
Grover Cleveland*        
William H. Taft        
Woodrow Wilson        
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover        
Franklin D. Roosevelt
Bill Clinton        

*He was drafted during the Civil War, but paid $150 for a substitute (a legal option under the terms of the Conscription Act of 1863, and his substitute survived the war).   {Alltime chickenshit president award winner.}

{Lyndon B. Johnson was in the US Senate when his joined the Reserves. He was credited with one B1 bombing mission as "an observer", but there is strong evidence that he was never on the plane. Read fake, as with Tonkin Incident. Yep, classic LBJ.}

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:01 PM

Being a POW unequivivably suits a person for command.


I do not know if that is true or not.


Saying something a million times does not make it true but it does make it popular. Election politics is a popularity contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:20 PM

Call me a cynic.

Writing in his book that when the NVA tortured him for the names of his comrades he gave the Green Bay Packers Offensive line. Pretty cool.

Going to Pennsylvania and saying it was the Steelers Defensive line. Very uncool.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:00 PM

hee hee, maybe it was a senior moment or his ghost writer didn't debreif him enough.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:20 PM

If McCain was in China he'd be a pander bear.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 01:36 PM

That's an unbearable thought, Jack.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 02:50 PM

Sleepwalker McCain...if he still does Ambien, he can't command...of course, I don't think he can without it, either, but the spoof video is fun to watch anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 03:25 PM

Here is a reassuring thought.

An Ambien taking President, a phone that rings at 3 AM and a briefcase full of launch codes.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:20 PM

I DO AGREE with Mc Cain.

In yesterday's faith debate McCain said that if you make less than $4 million a year you are not wealthy.

Do you make less than 4 million? If so, why ?
Do you not follow the McCain path of success or are you one of those Barack elitists>

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

Fighter pilots are officers not because they are in charge of personnel ~ they're not ~ but because they're in charge of an incredibly valuable/expensive piece of military hardware.

McCain didn't become a "leader of men" until he was captured and wound up in the Hanoi Hilton, where his rank put him in a position of authority over enlisted-personnel POWs.

No one would argue that he did anything less than a great job in those difficult circumstances.

How that background translates into qualification for the Presidency is a matter open to debate.

***************************

I make less then $4 million per year, and I'm not wealthy.

The vast majority of Americans make less than $4M ~ a lot less ~ and are making less and less every year, adjusting for inflation.

Those who are making, say, $3.99 million are doing quite well for themselves, and are only getting fatter and fatter all the time at the expense of the rest of us.

I'd say the "cutoff" figure between the rich and the rest of us is closer to a quarter-million per year or less, maybe as low as $150,000.

My sister told me several years ago that the crucial economic dividing line in our society is that between people who own stock and those who don't. I think she was onto something there, although ownership of a small number of shares doesn't mean much. Folks who collect a significant portion of their income from stocks participate in the predatory growth of corporations (non-human "legal individuals") at the expense of individual persons such as their employees and customers.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:00 PM

..and get to ride the wild roller coaster if companies get caught-up-with in their shadier sides.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Poppa, he may have done a great job under difficult circumstances, but he appears to be embellishing the story as he goes along, perhaps even plagiarizing. This was posted in another thread: Click Here.

Subject: RE: BS: Can McCain comand?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 20 Aug 08 - 01:07 PM

Yeah. I saw that story in that other thread.

One of the conservative syndicated columnists published an interesting piece this morning to the effect that McCain had started his campaign as a fairly genuine "maverick" and bipartisan type, which is basically true as far as I can see (e.g., co-sponsoring some generally progressive legilation with Feingold, Kennedy, etc.), but that IT WASN"T WORKING in the GOP primaries. Now that he's abandoned his previous personality and taken up the Karl Rove style, he is polling much better.

Sad but true.

By the way, speaking of "embellishing his stories," did you catch the rfecent bit about his pro-football reference? It's been fairly well-known for many years that, when pressed by the North Viets to give up the names of some US military personnel, he recited the roster of one of the great Green Bay Packer championship teams. At a recent campaign appearance in western Pennsylvania, he told the story, but twisted it a bit to say that ballplayers he named were Pittsburgh Steelers. Seems that he's come around to the well-established rightist strategy that lying is almost always better than the truth.