Violin to mandolin

Subject: Fiddle to mandolin
From: Cyparissa
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:30 AM

I play the fiddle, but I'm hoping soon to switch to the mandolin. I've been told that mandolins and fiddles are tuned the same way- is that true? Also, does anyone have any recommendations for any particular brand of mandolin? Thanks!

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Mr Sooz
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:44 AM

The notes are all in the same places. Just don't try to play it under your chin and you'll be fine!

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Ernest
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 09:59 AM

...and take a pick instead of the bow...
As for brands, old Gibson`s are often considered the best. Especially when they bear the signature of a certain Lloyd Loar. You didn`t ask for low priced ones, disn`t you?
Regards
Ernest

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 10:24 AM

I could play mando but the frets get in the way!

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: mooman
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 11:00 AM

Hi Cyparissa,

There are literally hundreds of makes at all sorts of price and quality levels... what sort of price range were you considering?

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Cyparissa
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 11:04 AM

Well, I was thinking of something not too expensive. I am a student, after all. :) But I would like something of decent quality, at least.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: mooman
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 11:13 AM

OK... question two! What country are you in?

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 11:23 AM

Same advice for ANY musical instrument - Buy the best you can afford , and go for a good used rather than a same price new instrument .
If nothing else , the resale value will not be gratly affected , and you will get a better beast , hopefully without any of the possible set up problems of a new mandolin .

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Cyparissa
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 01:50 PM

Hm, that's good advice, Leadfingers. I always try to go for used if I can, but is there a market for used mandolins? I'm living in Durham, England at the moment, which is a fairly small town. Still, Newcastle is only about 20 minutes away...I might be able to find a good music store there.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Leadfingers
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 01:53 PM

Check out 'Music Room' - They do have some used stuff and their nearest branch is probably Cleckheaton , but they DO do mail order !
And there ARE used mandolins available .

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:12 PM

If you are looking for cheap, say under £100, try David Kilpatrick.

You will find similar instruments under names like Vintage in shops but I think David's quality control, set up, care etc. is likely to be better. Certainly the one of his I played is a nicer instrument than my Vintage (which itself isn't bad - nice and loud - makes great session instrument).

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GUEST,Mooh
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:38 PM

Check out www.mandolin cafe.net for intelligent advice.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:01 PM

It hasn't been mentioned(?) that there are three main styles of mandolins:

1. The old "gourd" style, with a deep round back, still shows up occasionally - even in public. This style is generally considered more of a "novelty act" than anything, but might be of interest if you want to play ancient music.

2. Those generically called "A Style" look more or less "flat," but usually have slightly arched top and back. The visual distinction is that the head is fairly plain.

3. The "F Style" generally have a characteristically ornate head with prominent "curls" sticking out. Some believe the traditional notion that the "scroll" on the F Style was intentionally added to provide a place to tie on your strap.

The F Style is probably most popular with bluegrass players. The tendency is for mandos in this style to be a bit heavier than an A Style of comparable quality. You may also find a bit "fatter" necks, although there's lots of variation in both girth and depth.

Popular opinion is that the F Style are "louder," which probably accounts for their favored position with bluegrassers, where a main function of the mando is to simulate a snare drum. Players of (other kinds of) music more often feel the A Style have "more tone." My limited sampling of "off the shelf" instruments of both styles suggests that F Style mandos typically have a bit "stiffer" action than typical A Style ones, but a good setup probably can wipe out most of this difference.

Unless you specifically intend to concentrate on bluegrass, you'll likely find a better selection at reasonable prices at the lower end of the price ranges if you look mostly at A style constructions, although this will depend a lot on your local market. There are quite a few "brands" out there, and they are extremely variable in tone, action, and "playablility." Some things can be fixed with a bit of setup adjustment, but some are just built in.

New mandos with decent qualities can be found from about $350 US and up. If you find one you like, there's not much value to lose. New instruments from the smaller makers generally run from $800 to $2,000. I have one Chinese mass produced plywood mando that plays very nicely and that I got new for $350 about 5 years ago. My "old standby" is a Washburn A style that was new at the same price 25 years ago. I spent about $1300 15 years ago for a Vega F Style when I was playing exclusively with a bunch of bluegrassers. I don't play the Vega much simply because I don't have to now.

I have had two separate chances to play briefly a 1910 and a 1912 Loar Gibson, and there is NO COMPARISON between either of these two instruments and any other mando I've had my hands on - but I can't justify the $10,000+ it would take to get one. (One sold recently on eBay for $80,000.) Both of the owners "inherited" theirs as family heirlooms. If I had a relative who could leave me one I might consider murder, but probably would just drool a lot while I waited.

Note that this is all personal opinion. You should wait for the rebuttals. I'd also second Mooh's suggestion to visit the Mandolin Cafe for a bit of poking around 'mongst the real "mando cultists."

John

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Grab
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:08 PM

Also consider whether you want a mandolin (tuned GDAE like a violin), a tenor mandolin (tuned like CGDA like a viola) or an octave mandolin (tuned GDAE but 1 octave down from a violin). All these will fit with "standard" violin fingering. There's also the bouzouki, but that's often tuned GDAD 1 octave down, and so isn't the same fingering (although you can tune that GDAE as well if you want). Each size of instrument tends to have its own character based on the body size and scale length, so although good instruments will always sound nicer than bad ones, they might not be exactly what you're after (in the same way as a good viola will never sound like a violin or a cello).

Head down to a Music Room or somewhere similar and see what you prefer.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Cyparissa
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:15 PM

Thanks everyone- you guys give great advice. :) I'll let you know what I finally decide, though it may be awhile before I accumulate the funds.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Wesley S
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 04:16 PM

Actually a Loar Gibson sold recently for close to $180 thousand dollars.

If you have a chance - ask the best mandolin player you know to go with you when you buy. They might know what to look for. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Kaleea
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 05:24 PM

I picked up the Mando a year or 2 ago, & have enjoyed pickin' it! I first got an inexpensive teardrop type, then I inherited a bowl backed (neapolitan, 'tater back, gourd back, etc) type which has a magnificant tone. I eventually sold the teardrop, & I play the old bowl back because of the tone as well as the quality to project the sound. The F & teardrop types are certainly easier hold! While one like mine definitely takes a bit more getting used to holding, especially if you're a lady &/or want to strap it on, I wouldn't let that stop you from getting one if the out of the ordinary happens & one presents itself to you.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 06:24 PM

"Tater Bugs" are fairly common in antique shops and pawn shops in my area, but it's rare to find one in good playable condition. In the usual construction the inside of the bowl was lined with linen cloth, and the bugs seem to like it when they're left in the attic for a few years. Since the bowl is made of many strips glued together, most of the ones I see would need a fair bit of regluing.

In the era when they were most popular (Sears Roebuck sold one for about $5) frets were commonly a fairly soft brass, so you'd want to look carefully at their condition.

If you can find one that's been played, and kept in good condition, they are can be really nice instruments. The big bowl gives them a very mellow sound in the low end, although most lose a bit if you play a lot "up the neck."

They also usually used much lighter strings than are common now, and placement of the bridge "up in the center" on some gave a shorter effective string length on comparably sized instruments. Both of these effects can make some of them very "light" to the touch, and lots of fun to play. Putting modern "bluegrass strength" strings on some of them can be a bit hazardous though.

For a fiddler making a first move to mando, I'd suggest that a standard GDAE mando would be easiest to handle. The larger instruments can be a surprisingly uncomfortable stretch between frets for someone accustomed to fiddle string length. A brief "hands-on" should let any reasonably experienced fiddler know if it will be a problem. Moving from guitar to mando is the opposite, as most guitar players say that mando frets are "too close together."

John

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 07:38 PM

As a player of Piano Accordions, I play several differ nt ones with differing sized keyboard spacings - the smaller ones are lighter! It is a hassle to keep jumping back and forth from the differing stretches, but persistence helps.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 08:03 PM

Jumping between instruments is fairly simple, but new mando players coming from fiddle usually have enough trouble figuring out what to do with the frets without adding greatly different stretch as an extra thing to get used to.

There's probably no sense in telling someone with a new instrument to "take it easy," but a first thing likely to pop up going from fiddle to mando is that after a fairly short session your fingers hurt. It takes a lot more pressure on the strings to fret them on a mando than fiddlers are accustomed to. If the mando only had one string instead of the double-courses, you'd slice your fingers off.

When ready to build up new callouses, good advice is to play for no more than 10 minutes or so, then come back after an hour. Repeat as needed, and you shouldn't ever get too sore to want to come back. In a day or so, your fingers will be ready for longer sessions.

A fringe "benefit" of mando vs fiddle - you can use a capo on a mandolin! This opens all kinds of new possibilities, good for countless senseless debates with friends (and possibly occasional real enemies). Whether you want to join the debate on the forem or 'ginem side will likely depend on how adept you were at high positions on the fiddle.

IF so inclined, on the mando you can also study up on chords, play bluegrass, and sound like a snare drum.

Mainly you can have a bit of fun.

John

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GLoux
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 11:36 AM

1910 and 1912 Gibson mandolins would be "pre-Loar". Lloyd Loar joined Gibson in 1919 and left in December 1924. I've got an old 1914 F-4 that is terrific, but it ain't a Lloyd Loar.

That being said, you might consider getting a decent, low-cost "festival" mandolin...one you wouldn't mind taking to a festival. A few years ago I found a Strad-o-lin from the 1940s that I paid less than $100 for. The hard shell case I bought for it cost more than the instrument. I had the tuners replaced and the neck worked on and it is my festival mandolin. Collectors turn their noses up at Strad-o-lins because they are made of laminated wood, have what I call "fake" f-holes and have "Strad-o-lin" spray-painted (stenciled) on the headstock. IMHO, that's exactly what you want to take to a festival.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GLoux
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 11:41 AM

Also, I applaud you (Cyparissa) for wanting to play mandolin, but I hope you keep playing the fiddle, too. That way you can switch back and forth...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Mark Ross
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 02:01 PM

Bill Monroe was said to like Strad-o-lins. I owned one years ago and it was a serviceable instrument. Try and find a Flatiron if you can, it's a copy of the old Gibson Army-Navy Model, not too expensive.
The Gibsons can run you close to a thousand bucks these days, the Flatirons about half that.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GLoux
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 02:45 PM

Russ Barenberg got me interested in Strad-o-lins as festival mandolins. At the time I took a workshop from him (1984), he had two of them.

While well-made, the Flatirons I've played always seemed unbalanced to me...the body was too light for the neck/headstock. I'm sure I haven't played all of their models, though. A used Flatiron may cost less than a new one.

-Greg

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:42 PM

I'm not sure how cheap you want to go but I've just had a look at the Music Room range of mandolins. There is only the Crafter under £150. The next cheapest is £399.

I think the Crafter plays very well - I find it easier than my Vintage but I find it lacking in volume (unless of course you plug it in) - quite the opposite to my Vintage in that respect.

I suppose it depends on what you want the instrument for. In my case, its sessions with pipes, fiddles etc. I have tried a friend's Crafter playing melody in that environment but I couldn't really make it heard by anyone else.

Oh, they also have a resonator mandolin. I wouldn't mind trying one of those...

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 03:45 PM

As GLoux says, the couple of old Gibsons I had a chance to try out weren't "Loar," but they were simply a whole lot nicer than anything I can afford. I haven't had a chance to have a close-up with a Loar, and maybe at my age I shouldn't take on that much excitement.

There are no real dealers in used intruments in my area, and about the only place to get a used mandolin is at a pawn shop or antique mall. They're rare in both places, and if you find one, it's almost certain that it's there because it's unplayable. That doesn't mean it's not worth fixing, but you almost have to be an experienced player, or have some luthiery experience, to be able to tell how much fixing one will need.

There are a couple of dealers here who probably would like to have a few used ones to sell, but they don't seem to find very many - or they sell so quickly I never get to see them. That may be just because mandolins are much more popular now than they were in the past, so the few older ones are all currently in happy homes.

I tried a few Flatirons at about the time that I got my F Style, and found them decent, but several other brands looked like more for the money. Flatiron makes a number of different models, or did when I was looking, and they seemed rather "variable" to me.

My F Style is a "Vega," and it's a fairly popular brand name, but in the past had some quality problems. A particular problem was the "unusual" brand tuners they used. At about 5 to 7 years off the shelf, the buttons all simply "crumbled" and fell apart. The buttons had screws holding them on, and presumedly were meant to be replaceable, but the shaft was an odd diameter so you couldn't (*or I couldn't) get replacement buttons. I've seen at least 4 Vega F Stles in the campgrounds. It's unusual in my area to se that many of a single brand. All had new tuners, about an $80+ (US) replacement if you do it yourself. Vega appears to be using a different tuner now, so probably they've recognized the problem.

*I found one website that appeared to have the right size buttons, but the site was all in Korean(?), and I couldn't read the address to try to contact them. Vega didn't reply to my queries there.

With the variation, both in basic construction, styles, and condition, that you're likely to find, any used instrument should be evaluated at least by an experienced player if at all possible. There are a few dealerships where you may be able to rely on reputation, but not in my area.

If you are shopping around with dealers you don't absolutely know are top class, along with your experienced friend you should take a good tuner and use it to check the tuning before you start to play with it. I've found several places that deliberately "tuned down" a semitone or so (accurately, on every instrument in the place) in the belief that it will make the "action" feel better(?). In most such places, that's the only thing they know about instruments, but a mistuning can give a very deceptive impression if you don't correct it.

John

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Peter T.
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 05:22 PM

Can someone here tell me what the widest neck you can get on a mandolin is (I don't mean custom made?).   I was in a store one day and someone pointed out a Breedlove that he said was the widest he knew of (I forgot the measurements). I speak as someone with fat fingers.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Wesley S
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 05:53 PM

Also - The Sam Bush signature model Gibson that's out now has a wide neck - I'm not sure how wide. But I'll try to look up some numbers over the weekend. My guess is that there is a thread about this over at mandolincafe.com

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Pauline L
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 06:29 PM

JohnInKansas has given a wealth of very good info and advice. I'll just add some things from my own experience.

I am first and foremost a fiddler/violinist. I inherited a beautiful bowl back mandolin from my grandmother, who had brought it with her when she moved here from the Old Country. It was fun and easy to play because it is tuned and figured just like the violin. The strings are harder on your fingers than violin strings, but you'll build up the necessary calluses in time. Playing mandolin was very valuable to me as a fiddler because it taught me to "think" in chords or at least in double stops. JohnInKansas has given a good explanation of the demise of my mandolin. He said In the usual construction the inside of the bowl was lined with linen cloth, and the bugs seem to like it when they're left in the attic for a few years. One day I opened up my mando case and found hundreds of little pieces of wood. The mandolin had shuttered so badly that it couldn't even be glued together. I cried a lot. I suppose the bugs had eaten the cloth and the glue that held all the pieces of wood together.

A few years later I bought an entry level mandolin from a local store. When I decided that I wanted to upgrade, I started going to used instrument shows with a friend who was as crazy as I. These shows are so much fun. There are wondrous stringed instruments on display tables (no cases) tables, and you can pick up and try anything you want. It's better than being a kid in a candy store. My friend and I both liked playing the mandolins, and our favorite ones were usually $800-$900 or something unthinkably expensive. We agreed with each other that Gibsons are the best and that you can tell a Gibson if you're playing blindfolded. Gibsons are just so easy to play. You get a good sound from them almost without trying. (The same is true of violins. I got a fantastic deal on one of those, too, but that's another story.) I eventually bought a used Gibson model A about 40 years old for $500. That is a very good price for a Gibson. My Gibson is not a great Gibson, but it is a Gibson. The model A ones tend to cost less than the model F ones because the latter are favored by bluegrass players. I think the sound of the model A's is a bit more violinistic. They sing sweetly. In fact, for years I went around looking for mandolins and telling people that I wanted one that sounded like a Carolina wren.

My mandolin now needs repairs. I asked on a Mudcat thread for a good luthier in the Wash DC metro area. Several people recommended Jim Bumgardner, and they all said that he might be retired. I called him, and I got the impression that he only takes jobs that appeal to him, and mine didn't. Any more recommendations? HMT recommends Steve Carmody, but I've heard mixed reports about him. I'd appreciate some more advice.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GUEST,Mooh
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 08:25 PM

Though I really like my Moon, it's pricey compared to the Mid-Mo mandolins I've tried lately which were very, very good. Plain to see, but nicely voiced, and lots of choices of wood.

I think a radiused fingerboard is a nice touch on a mandolin, and maybe coming from violin, might feel a bit more natural.

Another vote for Breedlove too, though play a few and get the better if possible.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Oct 05 - 10:14 PM

I think that before you purchase a mandolin, you should rent or borrow one. If that's not possible, borrow a guitar and try playing it with a pick.

It could be that you are one of those people who will never enjoy playing with a pick. The time to find that out is now.

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 04:40 AM

But leenia, trying it out on a guitar isn't a fair test of pickaphobia or pickaphilia. There's those great big gaps between the strings on a guitar, where your pick slides down in and gets stuck, twangles up your fingers, and spoils your beat. Not anything like a mando, where the double course strings just glide the pick right over them - smooth as silk.

'Sides that, most gitarists (beginners at least) are just twangers and only know how to power chord one way. With a mando you gotta learn that back n forth, sorta like face-slappin' a rugrat, that just automatically leads you into smooth and easy playing.

But I will agree with the previous couple of posts, that a free trial beats paying up front for something you might not enjoy like you thought you would; and the more you know about where you're going, the more likely you'll end up somewhere you like being and will want to stay a while.

John

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: mooman
Date: 29 Oct 05 - 06:46 AM

As you're in Durham Cyparissa, and bearing in mind your budget, some UK luthier-made makes you're likely to come across in places like The Music Room mentioned by Leadfingers or your most local Hobgoblin shop might be:

Paul Hathway: fairly plain, but well-built and good sounding
Moon: slightly more decorated than the Hathways and god sounding
Anthony Dixon: Excellent and beautiful instruments, but still reasonably-priced (a tad more than the above), one of my favourites
Pickard: Not so often seen these days but good
Fylde: A couple of ranges. I have yet to play a bad Fylde. The arched top ones are particularly nice.
Paul Shippey: More expensive but always well-made and good-sounding. One of the higher-regarded UK makers these days
Phil Davidson: Comparable to Paul Shippey

Cheaper brands you're likely to come across (usually made in Korea or China) are Trinity College (not bad), Johnson, Kentucky and perhaps Michael Kelly (not bad).

I play a Terry Docherty octave mandolin (top line instrument and he has retired from making now). My mandolin and tenor mandola were both made by Gideon Weigert who now works out of Sheffield. He is relatively unknown as yet at large but is a recognised classical guitar maker. Both instruments are excellent and were a very good price (comparable to Paul Hathway's) even though the tenor mandola was custom-made to my specifications. The mandolin part of his website is here. My tenor mandola is the one at the top when still in his workshop. It might be worth giving him a call as I think he still has a mandolin in stock at a very reasonable price which would be a good and relatively inexpensive starter instrument.

Hope this is some help!

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Alice
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 12:48 PM

My son, Ryan, started playing the violin when he was about 10. When he was 12, my brother moved to England and gave Ryan his mandolin. He immediately took to the mandolin and it became his favorite instrument.

Here is a set of reels he recorded at age 15:
http://www.soundsauce.net/themeadowlark

I recommend starting on a good used instrument that you can try out before buying.

Alice

Subject: RE: Violin to mandolin
From: Mooh
Date: 20 Nov 05 - 02:31 PM

The Gibson A9 just knocks my socks off...at least the one I played a couple of weeks ago. For a cheaper archtop it sure has the goods.

Peace, Mooh.