BS: The smoking ban & pubs

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Emma B
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:30 PM

I'm no fan of New Labour but, in fact, the impetus for the smoking Ban came from an E.C. Green Paper 'Towards a Europe free from tobacco smoke: policy options at EU level'

This concluded that
'a comprehensive smoke-free policy would bring the greatest health benefit to the population, and the evidence from around the world is that this option is viable and enforceable.'

A response to this Green Paper from The Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh, a leading participant in the campaign to introduce smoke-free legislation for public places, stated that

- while starting the process to have Europe-wide legislative measures, Member States should be encouraged to adopt their own measures after due consultation in anticipation of European legislation as
"it would be important that a ban could be seen as having been discussed and decided upon by the people of each nation rather than being "imposed by the EU".

A test case to the ban in England as a "disproportionate interference" with their rights under Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights is about to be brought by patients at a top security psychiatric hospital.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 12:57 PM

Rustic Rebel - Actually I'm in north Texas but I plan to visit the smoke free London pubs in May. And I've supported similar laws here in Texas.

I'll ask again - what's so darn difficult about walking outside for a few minutes to smoke a cigarette so that it leaves the air inside clean enough for the rest of us to breathe? We'll save your seat at the bar.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 01:53 PM

I still can't see why some non-smokers still feel they have to victimize and try to insult people over this when they have, in fact, got what they wanted. It's rather like being back in the playground.

For my own part, I object to paying ludicrously inflated pub prices for drinks and then being expected to stand outside, so I no longer go in pubs. Everyone's a winner (except the landlord) so what's really your problem?

I believe those who desire it have a right to a smoke-free social environment in which to indulge their alcohol habit, I just don't think it should be forced on those who don't.

The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 02:21 PM

A little light reading :-

http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/secondhandsmoke
http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monographs/vol83/volume83.pdf
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/medical_notes/3235820.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2925633.stm
http://www.healthinsite.gov.au/topics/Passive_Smoking
http://quitsmoking.about.com/cs/secondhandsmoke/a/secondhandsmoke.htm
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/rapidpdf/bmj.38370.496632.8Fv3.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:30 PM

I wonder why smokers automatically assume that the 'nanny state' is only there to protect smokers from themselves; part of their me-me-me philosophy, I suppose!
Personally I'm grateful for a 'nanny state' which protects me from muggers, rapists, murderers - and smokers.
The link between smoking and cancer has long been an established fact - whether smokers accept it or not.
If tobacco had only just been discovered it would have been automatically made illegal; if it wasn't the source of wealth for multi-billionaire companies it would now be illegal; if it wasn't highly addictive, most intelligent people would not smoke.
Apart from the health risks, cigarettes have the effect of turning the most kind and thoughtful individuals into arrogant, selfish morons, as to be witnessed on this and similar threads - reason enough to ban them IMO.
Both of my parents smoked and both of them developed cancer - I was lucky, I only became chronically bronchitic.
They had the excuse of not being in possession of the facts, we do not.
If for no other reason, the next few years will see a total banning of tobacco products, if for no other reason that the various health systems cannot go on coping with wholesale, self-inflictred illnesses.
LONG LIVE THE NANNY STATE!!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:45 PM

"The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention."

Well, should we assume instead that all smokers are helpless and can't help forcing their habit on other people? Let's see. If you light a fag in the presence of other people you either wish to force it, don't give a monkeys about forcing it, or you can't help forcing it.   Which is it to be? Choose the one which is, in your opinion, the least infantile option and I'll adopt it from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:48 PM

"The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention."

'Byeeee.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Il' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 03:54 PM

I simply ask if they mind..

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,sinky
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 04:59 PM

smokers are pathetic and ignorant if they are upset that others may now live longer and healthier,take yer fags and f''= off

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:27 PM

So many hiding behind the label "Guest" brave lot aren't you!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:31 PM

I'm scared of the lynch-mob..
Nice to have you back Skipy, can you hold the fort while I have me tea, there's a good chap?

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Wesley S
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

I've always wondered about "guests" who aren't even brave enough to stick with one assumed name on the internet. Do that really think y'all are going to hunt them down and cause bodily harm? We live hundreds - and sometimes thousands - of miles away from each other.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 05:58 PM

It's no longer necessary to wash everything (including underwear) you wore to the pub after a couple of hours' (or less) wear because it reeks of smoke... does that help to reduce the carbon footprint?

Kitty

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:26 PM

I would like to assure all and sundry that I would never smoke whilst my head was up a lady's skirt, especially in the pub. Good manners cost nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: bobad
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 06:51 PM

Hey smoking guys, thought you might like to take a gander at what your lungs look like. Guess which are yours.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:08 PM

They are not mine, I have both of mine right here!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 19 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM

Not mine either, they don't look arrogant or moronic enough.

Dammit, now I'm hungry again.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:10 AM

I note that no one wanted to comment on demoracy

I will quite happily take up that challenge, skipy. Democracy is all about the MAJORITY deciding what happens. Well, in this country it is, we don't have proportional representation. So, as the majority do not smoke, a decision has been taken to ban smoking where it interferes with the rights of said majority. It realy is quite simple and I don't undestand why you keep flogging this dead horse.

Now, seeing as I have taken up your challenge, can I ask why you did not answer mine? Did the pub(s) near you close or not?

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM

Doesn't democracy include the right to breath clean air without the danger of having your lungs turned into lace curtains - who knows?
Favourite quote from a British newspaper when 'smoke free' areas were proposed for pubs.
"Having a smoke-free area in an enclosed building is like having a pee-free area in a swimming pool".
We got rid of them out of the bars, shops and workplaces in Ireland, now we've just got to stop them hanging round the doorways - it's on its way!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:50 AM

I have a friend who owns a pub (Free House) - terrific boozer, folk music and poetry nights, large selection of real ale, great food.

On the door it says (from before the ban) "No Smoking Inside. And no smoking ourtside the door either". He's packed morning (coffee) lunchtime and night.

He's packed every night. Try the Black Bull at Frosterley. (Weardale)

The free house real ale boozers in Sheffield with reasonably priced real ale are doing well. It isn't the smoking ban that's killing pubs.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:23 AM

It will be interesting to see what happens with a pub in Market Rasen that is about to re-open. I will keep you updated.

News clip
Posh Red Lion will be most expensive in area - A MARKET Rasen pub will reopen within weeks, with lager banned from the bar and prices that are unashamedly the highest in town.
Brewer Tom Wood will only have real ales and cider on tap at the Red Lion, will not entertain music or gaming machines, has no space for a pool table and definitely won't be serving food.

He hopes his radical policy will ensure a more discerning clientelle and entice people out for a pint who have lost faith with the town's current outlets and want something completely different.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 12:49 PM

That shut the moaning buggers up Les. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:11 PM

Well I have to admit John, that I would be willing to pay a higher price for my drinks for a pub that can offer something for decent honest people like you and me, without the smoking, piss artistry and general slob element that seem to frequent pubs these days :-)
I will have to ask the manager if he would allow accoustic music that doesn't attract the above mentioned groups :-)

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: John Routledge
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:22 PM

The major factor in pub closures is the economic climate. Many people are having to choose where to spend their hard earned cash and more and more are spending less and less in the very many pubs with little to offer.

Brewer Tom Wood has the guts to put his money where my mouth is and I wish good luck to him.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 02:56 PM

I was in a pub the other night where they were smoking and I said I didn't mind. It's time to bring back the smoking room as in ye olden days, me thinks. I don't smoke myself but I do think it's an infringment on human rights.

My doctor has just sent me a letter asking me to tell him if I smoke or not. I sent it back (as a non-smoker) telling him I smoke more than 60 a day. It'll be interesting what comes in the post next. I bet it's a whole load of junk mail about how to give up!!

Sal (not spending all night infront of the pc)

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:27 PM

We should all have the right to go where we please. Non-smokers were never forced into sitting in smokey pubs, it was entirely their own choice. Some folk clubs have been 'smokeless' for many years - an initiative which I applauded but generally avoided. It's only a small minority that really object, and I think they should be catered for, but I resent having the will of that minority imposed on me without having the opportunity to be part of the supposed democratic process from which it is alleged to have been decided. There is a possibility, though no proof, that passive smoking could be harmful; so are lions - I keep away from them.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 03:36 PM

Smokers are the minority Ol'Smokey

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:13 PM

Those who couldn't care either way are by far the majority. Smokers are only a minority compared with non-smokers, most of whom couldn't give a toss. I believe that were it to be decided democratically, the vast majority of both would opt for a mixture of smoking and non-smoking pubs, and that would be a reasonable outcome giving everyone a free choice.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 04:40 PM

Whatever Ol Smokey. You just continue your dream.

I run a concert venue and nobody would want anybody there smoking (100 people). I'll stick to that.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 05:55 PM

Yes Villan & I have nothing to do with folk music, folk clubs or festivals. However I AM SURE that if I did I would be able to attend a venue without smoking in it. My only wish is that a proportionate number of venues are set aside for those who do smoke. This ban has basically ruined my life (not that you give a shit!) my only recourse has been to withdraw my services from many of the activities that run in my village & others around me. Let the non smokers do the work I used to do.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:02 PM

Why not try snuff? Take it wherever you want, and no hassles about getting up other people's noses.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Rasener
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 06:42 PM

Unless he sneezes it all over me LOL

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 07:54 PM

"non-smokers, most of whom couldn't give a toss."

Where is your evidence for this? I can't think of anyone I've spoken to who's a non-smoker, who doesn't now relish the opportunity to go home not smelling like an ashtray, or to enjoy their meal without someone blowing smoke all over them.

Then there are the toxic fumes, 85% of which are released into the air around a smoker to be breathed in by others.

Then there is the high rate of asthma in this country. Many people's asthma is triggered by cigarette smoke, so many asthmatics were previously excluded from pubs. Maybe their lives were being ruined by smokers in the past...

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 08:41 PM

They may relish the opportunity to go to the pub! but they are not going very often, my local is down over £6000 grand a month since the ban, the non smokers are just not turning up to replace the smokers who no longer go to the pub.
1000,000 pints a day sales less than this time last year, lowest beer sales since the year 1930!
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:17 PM

Thanks Skipy. Those figures should be the answer to everyone on here.

Yes, one pub down over 6 grand a year. 1000,000 pints a day less than this time last year. All as a result of moaning by people who rarely even go into pubs !

Raise the taxes even higher on both please (I buy my fags and booze in France).

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: skipy
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:34 PM

No, 6 grand a month! not a year

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 09:38 PM

The evidence for my remark about majority opinion is purely personal, based on asking people if they mind if I smoke. It's all I've got to go on really, but I feel compelled to draw attention to the fact that out of all the members of this forum, only a tiny percentage have bothered to voice their opinion on this. Can anyone tell me what is wrong with having both smoking and non-smoking pubs, and everyone having a free choice? It would seem to me that in this case the fascists have won, and I think that is something we, as a society, should be very wary of and be fighting against - not childishly supporting merely for the sake of justifying your own prejudices.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey as well
Date: 20 Mar 08 - 10:04 PM

As far as I'm aware most concert venues have been smokeless for many years on account of the fire regulations. We are actually discussing pubs here in case anyone has forgotten..

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:02 AM

"I still can't see why some non-smokers still feel they have to victimize and try to insult people over this when they have, in fact, got what they wanted. It's rather like being back in the playground."
Normally my reaction to an addict would be one of sympathy for somebody with a major problem.
In this case, I have spent a lifetime having the effects of smoking inflicted on me, with the inevitable consequences to my health and comfort; now, when I can see a light at the end of the tunnel - I am invited to piss off to another pub.
Smokeless pubs - the bar staff working in these places don't get the choice to go somewhere else, and they spend a good slice of their lives in a fouled-up atmosphere - are you going to invite them to get another job? I worked as a maintenance electrician in London pubs for seven years and saw close up the nicotine slime deposited on the walls and ceilings from this pastime. I can still remember thinking "I was in the pub last night - my clothes must smell like that, and my lungs must be full of this shit". I was present on a job when a painter washing down a ceiling got some of the water in his eye and was blinded.
"The assumption that all smokers are selfish and wish to force their habit on other people etc., is a downright infantile attitude and does not merit any further attention."
Yeah; right - read through this thread!
Personally, I get a degree of satisfaction hearing smokers whinge about "freedom" and "individual rights"; they should think themselves lucky at not being presented with a bill for the damage and injury they've caused.
Rights and freedoms come with responsibility - get used to it and get another hobby.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:23 AM

GUEST,Watney

(I buy my fags and booze in France).

Where do you get your health care?

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Watney
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 05:21 AM

Same place you get yours.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 06:12 AM

Ol' Smokey - People say they don't mind you smoking out of courtesey as well as indifference, so how can you tell whether they care or not? Besides, even if, as you say, the majority do not care then surely the number of people who do care one way or another is the best indication? If so, and we assume, say, 10% of each faction do care, then the number of non-smokers who care is still far higher than the number of smokers who do. Simple statistics.

As to what is wrong with having both smoking and non-smoking pubs. Nothing at all. Makes me wonder why, out of the 30+ pubs near me in the 40 years I have been drinking, none catered for the non-smoker.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:26 PM

If i can buy patches to stop the craving for a fag (i maintain i don't smoke) would I get a buzz from the patch? Also would a patch calm a stressed non-smoker?

And another thing, if obesity is also causing a drain on the health service why haven't they invented a patch for a craving for food?

Sal

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 02:31 PM

That last point Dave made is the key one - if smokers had been to the fore in demanding that pubs made it possible for them to smoke without inflicting their smoke on other users and on staff it might have been a different story. But that just didn't happen in any of the countries where bans have been introduced.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:42 PM

I've already accepted that I can no longer smoke in pubs. You can be happy with that situation or not, it does not affect me any more. Silly jibes and spurious logic are now nothing more than a bit of amusement as far as I'm concerned. I am far more bothered about keeping my habit away from children, as it is a bad influence. They are the innocent ones, not non-smoking bigots who are well able to protect themselves if they wish. I wonder how many of you are happy to, for example, drink in front of your children, being as how it's so harmless and not a social problem or threat..

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 03:49 PM

I know that I'd never have seen any reason not to drink in the presence of my children. Getting drunk, now that is a very different matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:03 PM

A question of degree I think.
I apologise for bringing up alcohol, as it were. It's not that relevant here and would only lead to more silliness if one were to start comparing addictions and social effects. There are responsible drinkers as well as responsible smokers.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:11 PM

"I've already accepted that I can no longer smoke in pubs. You can be happy with that situation or not, it does not affect me any more. Silly jibes and spurious logic are now nothing more than a bit of amusement as far as I'm concerned."

That's a load of total bollocks, Ol' Dopey. If it doesn't affect you, and "silly jibes and spurious logic are now nothing more than a bit of amusement", why have you spent so much time whining about the ban on this thread?

"There are responsible drinkers as well as responsible smokers."

Yep, and if smokers had behaved more responsibly, and removed themselves from the pub when they needed a coffin-nail, the ban wouldn't have been necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: GUEST,Ol' Smokey
Date: 21 Mar 08 - 04:19 PM

I'm not whining about the ban, I am forced to accept it. Find yourself another good cause, this one's finished.

Subject: RE: BS: The smoking ban & pubs
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 08 - 03:29 AM

GOOD