BS: Who can vote?

Subject: BS: Who can vote?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 05:05 AM

A couple of weeks ago, I read that many absentee American voters will lose their vote due to the paperwork being sent out too late for them to get registered in time. Today I read that nearly 50% of NY immigrant voters will lose their vote, due to an administrative backlog. What with all that, and those disenfranchised due to their having been on the wrong side of the law, seriously or otherwise. Add that to the missing votes in Florida last time around, and the gerrymandering in Texas, and I begin to wonder whether voting is a right or a lottery in the US.
Not saying we are perfect over here, but that's the way it looks from my side.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 10:19 AM

It's like kids in a playground. Ya make enough rules and eventually they stop playing.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:56 AM

Probably won't matter anyway. The voting machines will be deciding this election (or at least whoever is most successful in rigging the machines to favor their candidate). But yes, the election process in this country really doesn't in any way resemble what one would expect in a democratic country.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Amos
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:01 PM

The right to vote does not prevent others from fucking up the paperwork, accidentally or covertly on purpose.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:24 PM

I mailed back my absentee ballot three days after receiving it. I did my part. I'm hoping both the British Post (OY!) and the ballot counters in Hawaii do theirs.

It's a sucky system. Has been for years. Fingers, eyes, and toes now remain crossed until the elections.

Typing will be a challenge!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 01:34 PM

As Ellenpoly says, this is not a new problem, nor is it limited to areas dominated by one or the other of the major political parties. IMHO, the problem has more to do with our nation mania with technology and with our quest for "absolute fairness" than it does with anyone's desire to rig the election. Newsweek article about it here;
be patient...it took me several tries to load it because of all of the ads, etc., on the page.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:12 PM

There's an old saying about the difficulty some people might have in organising a booze-up in a brewery...

It sounds as if you've got people like that running your elections in some parts of the USA.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 02:24 PM

I had to vote absentee because on Election Day I'll be in Portland, OR. I walked into the courthouse, showed my driver's license, told them my correct address, they looked me up, I signed for a ballot, and voted. When I'd marked my ballot (with a pencil!) I folded it, put it into an envelope and sealed the flap. I left the voting booth and was handed a second envelope, in which I put the first envelope; signed across the flap of the second envelope and put it into the locked box that was bolted to the desk.

No sweat at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 06:40 PM

Thank you, Rapaire. You did your part to maintain "liberty and justice for all".

The more folks who gripe and give up and DON'T vote, the less honest and responsive the system becomes. The more who do what's required to cast a ballot, whether "absentee" or on THE day at the polling place, the more openness and honor is forced on the system.

Not only will I vote, I am an alternate judge at my precinct's polling place, answerable, in part, for the integrity of the vote. We hope for a record turnout. FIND YOUR VOTER'S REGISTRATION CARD OR CERTIFICATE, KEEP IT IN YOUR BILLFOLD/PURSE (with your driver's license?) AND USE IT AT THE POLLS. THAT'S WHAT IT'S FOR. It will help any pollworkers get you through the line faster and smoother. Voice of Experience.

VITE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE. VOTE...   Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:36 PM

Requiring voters to show ID is illegal in New Mexico.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:09 PM

Not even a voter registration card, artbrooks?

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 08:36 PM

Rap, You're going to be in town on election day?

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 09:16 PM

On Bill Moyers tonight they talked about a lot of the intimidation practices going on in Republican strongholds, where (for example) one local party is hiring uniformed security guards with vans that just happen to look remarkably like Border Patrol people and vehicles. And they spoke about how the "high terror alert" on election day will mean a lot of cops are out and people who have trouble with cops will be likely to avoid voting to avoid cops. Much more along those lines.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 11:13 PM

Yeah SRS because polling stations in Black neighborhoods are prime terror targets. Makes sense in bizarro world.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 10:52 AM

Nope. You walk in, say "I'm Art Brooks and I live at so-and-so." They look you up, hand you your ballot, and point you at the machine. Not a damn thing to prevent somebody else from waltzing in and voting on my behalf.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 05:42 PM

Here ya go, folks-

Practice voting at this site...go on, I dare you!

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: GUEST,Margarita
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

What documented, vote-eligible US citizen would be afraid of the border patrol ? Sounds like you're whining because the illegals may be afraid to vote. I don't personally care if they stay here, but I draw the line at granting them voting rights.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 05:10 PM

Thanks for the practice, Ellenpoly. A little different from the machines here in central Texas.   Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

Margarita, if they are eligible to vote, they should be able to vote. It's that simple. And if someone is trying to intimidate a block of voters because they tend to vote one way or the other, that is wrong. Again, as simple as that. Now go back and sit through your high school civics class again and report back when you get a passing grade.

I voted this afternoon at Early Voting. The only person looking intimidating was the tired woman at the door asking each and every person if they had a cel phone and telling them to be sure it was turned off. Too bad someone has to spend a whole day giving that instruction, but common courtesy evaporates when it comes to cel phone use.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:46 PM

One thing I hadn't realised is in almost half your states there's a law saying that the "electors" (the states reps on the Electoral College that never meets) are legally bound to vote for whichever candidate gets the most votes.

Which means, I take it, most popular votes in their particular state. But it occurred to me that by making it obligatory on them to vote for whichever candidate got the most votes nationally, that'd be an elegant and simple way of solving an embarrassing situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:52 PM

Not everyone follows the rule. I remember one year when I guy from Spokane or somewhere equally western cast his vote opposite what everyone else on the state did, simply because he could. It has probably been 20 years or more since that event (and something similar may happen more often for all I know). The electoral college is damned annoying. When you really think about it, the federal government is just humoring all of us by letting us vote at all, because they really don't have to pay any attention to the popular vote if they don't want to.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:34 PM

Democracy in America is a joke...

Voting is purdy much a joke...

The system is so rigged that Tepubocrats will win 100% of all the federal elections. The repubocrtas will win 99.9% of all other elections.

And they call that voting?

And we made jokes about the last election in Iraq where Saddam Hussain got like 98% of the vote? Take the Green Party's 2% out and we have about the same level of democracy as Iraq had prior to Bush invading it to bring democarcy to it?

I mean, like go figure. Heck, if Nadar only get's 1% of the vote the U.S. might wanta hire Saddam as a consultant to help us shape up our flagging democracy...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:22 AM

I see from todays NYT that New Jersey voters are trying to stop the use of electronic voting machines. Do you think they suspect the results might be manipulated? The Democrats in texas have also got permission to challenge the congress's rezoning [gerrymandering] in the courts, but too late to affect the upcoming election!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 11:32 AM

I voted yesterday, and was dismayed to see that in all of the uncontested races, the candidates were uniformly republican. It's like democrats don't even attempt to take those offices any more, they know the republicans will fight dirty to win. Why risk your good name? In one of the contested County races down here, the republican has tried to dredge up 20 and 30 year old business records to make them an issue against the democrat, who has served steadily and consistently well in the various municipal or county jobs he's held since his early attempts at being a private businessman. Like small startup businesses aren't ever supposed to have financial difficulties or go belly up. He moved on, got a job, and that is that. Until now. . .

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:23 PM

Carol C: enlighten me please. What is unfair about the U. S. voting system?

The only block of votes I have heard might be blocked are military votes. The Democrats are aware that the military strongly favors Bush and they would love to have those ballots cast by service people get lost.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:31 PM

The electoral college, for one thing. It disenfranchises large numbers of people. And then the new voting machines that don't leave any paper trail for another.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:08 PM

Change the laws on the Electoral College, then, to force them to reflect the percentage of the vote cast in each state for the candidates. No problem -- except getting the "winner take all" mentality in the US changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM

My suggestion is much simpler. Just have a law that all electors are bound to vote for the candidate who gets the most votes nationally.
.....................

The only block of votes I have heard might be blocked are military votes.

What about all those people barred from voting because they might or might not have a conviction for which they've already been punished (apart from the ones who didn't have any conviction in the first place, but still had their vote stolen)? That's wouldn't be legal in most democracies - and probably isn't actually constitutional in yours, if it ever got tested through the Supteme Court.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:23 AM

Just have a law that all electors are bound to vote for the candidate who gets the most votes nationally.

I see what you mean: Bush 35 %, Kerry 33 %, Nader 32 % and Bush gets 100 % of the votes of the electoral college.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:34 AM

Marijuana 'petition' actually voter registration form




By: MARGARET GIBBONS , Times Herald Staff 10/19/2004


COURTHOUSE - Montgomery County Community College (MCCC) students recently received a real-life lesson: Do not sign something unless you thoroughly read it.


Students, who last month signed a petition that was being circulated on the Blue Bell campus to legalize marijuana for primarily medicinal purposes, now are finding out that they are registered Republicans.
"This is just very disheartening," said Plymouth resident Jennifer Fugo, a 24-year-old continuing education student who describes herself as a "victim of voter registration manipulation."
"Everyone is encouraging young people to register and vote and then they experience something like this," Fugo said Monday. "This is just outrageous."
Fugo, who had been living in New York, this summer returned to the area and, in August, had her voter registration transferred to Plymouth. Her new registration card at that time correctly listed her party affiliation as a Democrat.
Imagine her surprise last week, said Fugo, when she received a new registration card from the county that listed her as a registered Republican.
"It is disgraceful and detestable, not to mention illegal, to alter anyone's voter registration without that person's consent," Fugo said. "The thought that there is a special interest group in my area that is knowingly defrauding citizens voting records is outrageous, no matter what party or interest group is perpetrating this act."
When she contacted the county's voter registration office, she was advised that she was not the only MCCC student who was a victim of registration fraud.
County voter services Director Joseph R. Passarella said that his office has received "less than a handful" of complaints from MCCC students complaining that they have been registered as Republicans and all were tied into the same petition drive.
His office has not been able to pin down the group that submitted these registrations.
Passarella speculated that there are various organizations this year who are paying people to register new voters in specific parties and that this was the work of someone trying to cash in on the registrations.
The good news is that it does not make any difference in what party a person is registered in the upcoming election because a registered voter can vote for any candidate on the ticket regardless of party, Passarella said.
However, if a person wants to vote in next spring's Democratic or Republican primary elections and is not registered in the party of his or her choice, he or she can change the registration after the Nov. 2 general election, he said.
"I think these kids learned the hard way to make sure they read things before signing them and not sign anything that is questionable," Passarella said.
Fugo said she had questioned the signing of the registration form, telling the petition circulator that she already was registered to vote. He told her they were just using the form for information purposes and that she could not sign the petition unless she also signed the form.
Susan Adams, MCCC's director of marketing and communications, Monday said she was first alerted to the situation last Friday after the school had received calls from a student and the parent of another student.
Adams said that all persons circulating petitions on the college's campus must first sign in with the school.
No one signed in nor received an OK to circulate the marijuana petition, Adams said.
MCCC in early September did host a voter registration drive where the Republican, Democratic and Green Parties participated, Adams said.
"That was very successful," said Adams. "There is a lot of interest in this election."
Montgomery County Republican Committee Executive Director Adam Gattuso said the county GOP did not condone such registration fraud and did not learn about it until late last week.
"That is despicable and not something we would do nor need to do," said Gattuso.


Margaret Gibbons can be reached at [e-mail] or 610-272-2501 ext. 216.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:51 AM

I'm intrigued by the media hoopla regarding "early voting." Here in Idaho, the polls have been open since about September 30 -- and you do NOT have to be out of town or otherwise absent on Election Day to use them.

Of course, Idaho hardly gets the media attention that some place like Florida gets. Of course, if Kerry wins Sun Valley will have wall-to-wall reporters.

Come to think of it, I hope Kerry wins just so we can collect sales taxes from all them reporters.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 08:58 AM

That would be an imperfect result, Wolfgang, but the result would be no different from under the present system, which, with those votes, would mean that it would go to Congress to decide, and they'd put Bush in. (And if the postulated voting figures had been Nader 35 %, Kerry 33 %, Bush 32 %, I think they'd probably still put Bush in.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 09:32 AM

What does 'registered' mean in this sense. In the UK we can join a political party if we wish, even then we are not obliged to vote for that party, or even to vote at all. Our biggest problem is voter apathy, so few people bother to vote. This can cause an area with 60000 people on the electoral register to return a candidate who gets 20% of the vote, in which maybe only 35% of the electorate voted. This means that 4200 people decide the representation of 60000, it's all wrong.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:10 PM

The meaning of "registered" member of a party is different from state to state, Giok.

We have "primaries" here, which are basically means to narrow down the field of candidates. For example, there may be 4 people who consider themselves Democrats and want to run for a particular office, such as Dog Catcher. We would have a primary to see which of the 4 gets to compete in the "real" election, against their opponents from the other party/parties. In some places, where one of the major parties has little or no presence, the primary actually decides (for all practical purposes) who will finally be elected.

In some states, you have to be a registered member of a party to vote for the candidates in that party's primary. Other states allow crossovers from one party to another with some controls imposed, and some have open primary elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:56 PM

Imagine the surprise when all of those new "republicans" vote democratic. At the polls they have to be given a ballot with ALL of the candidates. You vote a straight party ticket only if you choose to. But it is a dirty trick.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Who can vote?
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 10:01 PM

I think the big problem with that voter registration fraud is, as with the example given above, if the person thinks they're supposed to vote in one state, when they are in fact registered to vote in another. If they didn't find out in time where they were supposed to vote, they might not be able to vote at all.