BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:34 AM

What do we reckon to Bozza missing 5 fibre meetings?

From the Daily Heil so a not to be accused of bias :-)

Oh, and 200.

Unless I missed it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:36 AM

Can you Chadwick! Nicked 200 and didn't even say owt :-P

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:37 AM

Barb'ry, talking politics is a vigorous and lusty pastime, not best done walking on eggshells. I'm a product of those hard-left smoke-filled rooms of the 70s, the difference from here being that we can't eyeball each other on this forum. That gives Iains the "courage" to routinely offend, provoke, and insult. He'd have been given the order of the boot in short measure had he tried that in those heated real debates, for the astonishingly simple reason that he can't debate. We just didn't do what he does. So let us have free rein, within reason. Counsels of perfection are fine, and we should aspire, but we are human beings. Please delete posts that take the mick out of our names ("backwardman," "little jimmie," "shaw" and the like), and that lack any of the sensible content you'd expect in talking politics. And while I'll defend his right to the hilt to make constant references to his favourite far-right criminal blogger and muse, he really shouldn't be sneeringly telling us just about every day that Mr Staines is the only infallible source of political analysis. Don't let him do it. That way, you won't have to keep sending us those green "love-letters." We promise!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:56 AM

Some are merely a product of something. Some are are independant intellectuals and some are painstakingly wise. Idiots go without saying.

The mass produced 'products' annoyingly cry to the teacher/mod that 'so an so' isn't being fair. What a waste.

Stop being a waste product and build something new and improved.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 08:21 AM

Last word on this from me
I go along with Steve with a compromise suggestion
This has been going on for as long as I pointed out and it has sunk many important threads - even made them permanent no-go areas
As Steve says, over-enthusiasm from all of us can be a problem that can be solved without using the pub "no politics, no religion, no football" approach I had to get used to in Liverpool
What happens here is Iain's gets to the point where we all fall into his trap, he realises he has gone too far and tomns his behaviour down for a while (as now) and we all breathe easy until he gets bored and kicks off again
May I respectfully suggest that next time it happens (as it inevitably will) Workingtonman's suggestion is tried
I was barred twice by Joe without hesitation (I believe unfairly) for something off the cuff and far more mild than this - two musical subjects became forbidden which caused us permanently losing a veteran researcher (feel free to go and check - I'm happy to provide the complaint I made to Max - which didn't receive the courtesy of a reply even)
If punishment can be this stringent - why not to our worst serial offender ?
There's th' end on't as far as I'm concerned
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 08:53 AM

What do we reckon to Bozza missing 5 fibre meetings?

Try this: A Government spokesman said: ‘This article (Sunday Times)contains a series of falsehoods and errors and actively misrepresents the enormous amount of work which was going on in government at the earliest stages of the Coronavirus outbreak.’


https://healthmedia.blog.gov.uk/2020/04/19/response-to-sunday-times-insight-article/
It must be pointed out that at least one of the co-authors is more suited to writing fairy tales.Brought by Guido, the man yet to be caught peddling false news!

https://order-order.com/2020/04/21/sunday-times-journalists-discredited-track-record/

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 08:53 AM

Apart from saying go away, Donuel, as you have nothing useful to say, I'll agree with that. Now is not the time to say more.

It must have have been a cold night over on those white cliffs of Dover for those anxious Tories, still fruitlessly scanning the heavens for any sightings of the possible arrival of Turkish kit. It would be bloody funny if it wasn't, in turns, both pathetic and tragic.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 09:00 AM

Agree with Jim, that is. I don't see a denial in either piece about Johnson missing five meetings. Like I said, you don't debate, you merely sidetrack. Not good enough for here.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 09:08 AM

He missed the meetings. Gove admitted it in the Mail piece (of all places).

"Mr Gove, who is part of the so-called 'quad' of ministers steering the government's response while the PM recovers from his own battle with the disease, this morning called the allegations 'off-beam'.

Speaking to Sky's Sophy Ridge, the minister for the cabinet office said: 'There are one or two aspects of the Sunday Times report that are slightly off-beam.'

He confirmed the PM did not attend the Cobra meetings, but added: 'He didn't. But then he wouldn't. Because most Cobra meetings don't have the Prime Minister attending them.'"

Depends who you want to believe, I s'pose...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 09:26 AM

Conversely, ‘Blair and Brown never missed Cobra meetings’, says former Downing Street chief aide

Gove said for a PM to miss Cobra meetings is normal. I think it would be relatively easy for someone with access to the minutes - i.e. some appropriate civil servant, to collate the information for all Prime Ministers from, say, Thatcher onwards. Then we could form our own view how 'normal' it is.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 09:59 AM

Every good story has a villain. I've gone as far as to say Iains was a Russian bot product. But getting rid of the only villain does not mean villains don't exist.
Not being omnicient, sometimes the villain is ourselves.

At worst any villains/trolls here are ankle biters.

Conservatives in my country identify as a culture warriors. The UK conservative is a different sort imo but share with Amurikans an attitude that they hate more than what they aspire to.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 10:20 AM

‘Blair and Brown never missed Cobra meetings’, says former Downing Street chief aide
Interesting Headline from The Scotsman. The use of inverted commas suggests that it is a direct quote from a former chief aide.
What he actually said (in the attached article) was not quite as positive:
The chief scientific adviser under Tony Blair and Gordon Brown has said he cannot recall a Cobra meeting which was not attended by the prime minister of the time.

Just quoting facts, as opposed to headlines, which, for some reason, are often misleading.

And it's COBRA (Cabinet Office Briefing Room A), not FIBRE (something to do with diet).

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 10:21 AM

Whatever the truth of the matter there is little doubt that the Government did not take this virus seriously until it became a major problem - 5 weeks seems a fair estimate
While many countries are preparing to or actually have returned to normal, the Government is still being lambasted by medical staff for it's failure to provide protective clothing
- "leftie fake news" to some, bu not to those who are grateful for the sacrifices these people have made
Pity some people arenet more prepared to discuss failures rather than defending them - rather like squabbling over the results of an inquest
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 10:24 AM

According to the Institute for Government (IFG), “COBRA’s purpose is high-level coordination and decision-making in the event of major or catastrophic emergencies, including natural disasters, terrorist attacks and major industrial accidents or disruption”.

The IFG also says COBRA is designed to "keep ministers appraised of the situation, to ensure that the wider response of the government is coordinated, to record and disseminate key decisions and updates to all relevant ministers and officials, and to provide ministers and the prime minister with up to date information on the situation for any decisions that they may need to make".

The presence of the PMis a red herring as he/she would be fully appraised of any decisions taken and ready totake direct action if required.
The viewpoints of some:
George Eustice was a junior minister in the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs during the 2014 floods when the Government was being heavily criticised for lack of action.

He said that when local authorities had been caught out by the Christmas break, COBRA was an effective means to “give everybody a kind of proverbial kick up the backside and get things moving”.

But COBRA has also been criticised in the past. Charles Clarke, who was home secretary during the 7 July 2005 terrorist attacks, warned that ministers should be careful to avoid COBRA meetings “taking up the energies of the key operational people”.

Lord Blair of Boughton, former commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, similarly warned that the frequency of COBRA meetings could cause problems, especially if they were called at "the whim of the chair".

Andy Hayman, the former assistant commissioner in the Metropolitan Police, said that Government should avoid making COBRA meetings too frequent to make sure that operational staff were not "running around servicing meetings but not actually achieving anything”.

There is no point in debating the issue until accurate figures from other premierships are obtained.
It is hardly likely any response would be directly actioned without the consent and knowledge of the acting PM or his acting deputy.
But carry on believing whatever you want to believe.
In 2002 blair convened cobra three times within the first 5 years of taking office.

The meetings referred to as being missed by Boris were convened in January and February. It was not until March 19th that the WHO declared a pandemic.
From the Guardian: Civil servants caution that Cobra is not necessarily at the heart of how British government should be run. It was designed – after Britain watched West Germany’s hapless response to the 1972 Munich hostage crisis – to give a cross-government focus on an emergency incident, a terror attack or a mass-casualty disaster. Officials say it is not part of the normal Whitehall machine.

Some of its meetings, which tend to be hardly reported, are attended only by civil servants. Others are chaired by departmental ministers – Amber Rudd, when home secretary, chaired a Cobra meeting during the Skripal crisis, for instance. The presence of the prime minister is by no means necessary, although in each case the decision to hold a lower-level meeting should have been signed off by No 10.

Some would like to level a charge of incompetance or dereliction of duty it would appear. Totally without substance in my view, and judging by the increasing levels of support Boris is receiving,most would appear to share my view.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 10:46 AM

In my comment next to that link, Nigel, I described a simple way of testing whether it is true Brown and Blair never missed a Cobra meeting, while simultaneously checking Gove's claim that PMs missing such meetings is normal?

Would you support getting actual factual information about attendance at Cobra, rather than relying on Gove's assertions or other people's memory? If not, I am prepared to rely on the advisor's memory in the absence of anything better.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 10:48 AM

Hadn't realised there was a pandemin in 2002 - isn't that whet we're discussing ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 10:53 AM

No it was cobra meetings.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 11:36 AM

Whatt happened to Blair et-al has nothing to to with the almighty cock up that is still happening, other than to act as a convenient diversion
What meeting Blair missed in relatively serene times measures minute next to the disgraceful way the present spider in the Number Ten web acted in a national emergency - including refusing to be checked after he hobnobbed with virus sufferers - good example for the rest of us, eh what !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 11:47 AM

What meeting Blair missed in relatively serene times measures minute next to the disgraceful way the present spider in the Number Ten web acted in a national emergency

I recommend a perusal of the Chilcot report and the utter condemnation of Bliar blair taking us off to war under false pretenses. Lack of PPE for troops,lack of dury of care to MOD personnel, not to mention Court action over troops being killed in death trap snatch landrovers. Would you like more?
There was precious little serenity back then as I recall - go ask an Iraqi !

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 12:03 PM

I described a simple way of testing whether it is true Brown and Blair never missed a Cobra meeting, while simultaneously checking Gove's claim that PMs missing such meetings is normal?
Would you support getting actual factual information about attendance at Cobra, rather than relying on Gove's assertions or other people's memory? If not, I am prepared to rely on the advisor's memory in the absence of anything better.

I would always favour facts over opinions. But Gove was not asserting that the PM was there (which would be the opposite of the The Scotsman claim), but that the PM was not required to be there. The frequency of Brown/Blair attendances does not influence that fact.
From: The Institute for Government
Who sits on COBR?
The composition of any COBR meeting will depend on the situation being discussed. It will be a mixture of officials and agency personnel, alongside ministers, from relevant departments and agencies. The meetings are often chaired by the most senior minister in the room, and the prime minister if he or she is attending, but not always.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 12:07 PM

"I recommend a perusal of the Chilcot report and the utter condemnation of Bliar blair taking us off to war under false pretenses.
More whataboutism - Blair was a political thug as is the present crowd
What he did has sfa to do with the presnt crisis other than to act as a diversioion
What about Chamberlain and that piece of paper? - about as relevant as that

I'm not surprised at you but I must say, I expected more from Nigel
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 12:16 PM

Cobra ? cobblers..

just another time wasting waffle distraction..

..at least potatoes were tastier to think about...

Wonder what tomorrows distraction tactic will be...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 12:25 PM

As for Iains - for whatever mudcat mod's reasons, we are stuck with him/them,

..so let's at least get some use out of his/their 'contributions'..

I can and do on my own terms...

We need to recruit some more conservative mudcatters to our UK BS debates,
to prevent them stagnating into our own little lefty love-in..

Too much stress has been place on Iains to fill the vacuum left by ake, tezza, and dear old keith..

No wonder Iains shows signs of multiple personality disorder,
having to fill all their shoes...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 12:32 PM

"Cobra ? cobblers.."
At least it adds a bit of sting to a somewhat circular discussion - where's me whistle
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 12:43 PM

You should know by now that leftie love-ins never happen, pfr. If there's one thing I learned from those smoke-filled 70s rooms in East London, it's that if you put more than about four lefties in a room for half an hour, you'll end up with two bitter factions...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:05 PM

My original question, "what do we think of Bozza missing 5 COBRA meetings" provides no surprise answers really. The right wingers on here try to justify it while those of us further left condemn it. The excuses given are hinged around whether it is common practice of not. The government supporters say it is but, as I have pointed out before, they are not to be trusted. Just look at the litany of lies I have referenced previously to see why that should be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:13 PM

"you'll end up with two bitter factions..."
You must have attended different meetings than I did
Only two ?
The left would have strolled home decades ago if they had stuck to socialis principles rather arm-wrestling over tactics
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:17 PM

"We need to recruit some more conservative mudcatters to our UK BS debates"

You don't have to look far. Almost any yank here will do.. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:19 PM

Steve - "lefty love-in"..
you can guess which cheeky smiley emoticon
I would have used...

4 lefties in a room.. only 2 factions.. that's a bit optimistic innit...???

.. more like 6 - 8 factions - we're that good at it...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:19 PM

"Almost any yank here will do.. "
Surely we need English-speakers who aren't always late for everything ;-)
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:20 PM

Absolutely, Jim. After ripping each other to pieces for two and a half hours we'd reassure ourselves that we were on the same side but that we merely had "different perspectives..." :-)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:23 PM

It would be reasonable, I think, to expect senior cabinet ministers, including the Prime Minister to attend all COBRA meetings.

These meetings are called to address urgent issues and again to my mind it would be essential that all senior staff would be au fait with the issue. All parts of that issue.

To receive any information "second hand" does not normally allow a full and clear picture of the situation to be arrived at.

Thus any minister, and certainly the Prime Minister, missing these meeting could be construed as a dereliction of duty.

Please note this applies to any government of any persuasion.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 01:32 PM

What is clear right now,
is that emergency contingency planning
has so far not been anywhere near good enough..

Retro blame games are too much of a distraction.
Now is year zero for starting over fresh, and getting it right for our future...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 02:02 PM

Cobra is not a universal panacea. At the end of the day the day the question to be answered is did the government recognise the severity of the problem and did they step up to the plate? It does not matter if they met in the parlour or squatted in the outside bog. It is not about where they held the meetings as much as how did they deal with the issue.
I am quite happy for an enquiry when the flak settles. Inevitably lessons will be learnt and perhaps even acted on. The opposition constantly needling just illustrates what an absolute mess they are in. They cannot even present a united argument(see Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:32 AM) This is hardly surprising as they have split into a series of squabbling factions.
Just like the flu this virus carries a mortality rate with it. Some it will kill regardless of what medical techniques and equipment is thrown at it. This seems to be overlooked. Have the medical facilities been swamped?
No not yet
Have we run out of ventilators? It has not been reported.
Have we run out of oxygen? It has come close but the German company owning BOC has a similar problem. In Gernmany it is reported demand has increased 10 fold. Manufacturers are demanding regulations are relaxed in order to satisfy demand.
PPE shortagesj are a problem not unique to the UK. The US has been accused of runway piracy, an exaggeration I am sure. European countries have tried commandeering contracted supplies, namely France and Germany. Having outsourced most of its production to China and India, those low prices have come back with a sting in the tail.
Turning over production takes time and any existing contracts on home produced material requires honouring first. NHS procurement also has a part to play in this unhappy tale - they are certainly not blameless.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 02:09 PM

Iains sounds very reasonable. Bottom line, we gotta change our ways.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 02:14 PM


Cobra is not a universal panacea. At the end of the day the day the question to be answered is did the government recognise the severity of the problem and did they step up to the plate?

That is so. But by the account you posted :
According to the Institute for Government (IFG), “COBRA’s purpose is high-level coordination and decision-making in the event of major or catastrophic emergencies, including natural disasters, terrorist attacks and major industrial accidents or disruption”.


That is, COBRA is specifically intended to enable the government to 'step up to the plate'. So whether the PM did or did not attend is a good indicator if he did that plate-stepping.

I agree with pfr that what happens from now on is more important than what went before, but it is unfortunate fact of life that if people make a mess of things, they often need to be faced with it to bring about a change. It is one reason why most businesses do 'Personal Development Interviews' or whatever the jargon is/was in your company. Loking back on what didn't work is an important guide to doing better in future. I don't hold with idea of just keep pushing forward without looking at what mistakes if any are being made ( (c) P Patel) and only when all this is over in who knows how long, have a inquiry lasting a year or two and preferably only reporting after the next election ...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 02:16 PM

Funny, innit. When Labour were in power in 2008 and there was a GLOBAL financial meltdown going on, it was all Labour's fault. Why, we still occasionally hear them blamed, even today. Yet when the Tories execute an almighty screw-up, including ignoring a report from four years ago that shudderingly and precisely predicted that the NHS under the Tories was not fit for purpose and would be pitched into peril should there be a pandemic, it's all the fault of squabbling factions not in power who dare to criticise. We've done worse than every other country except for the US, and the light is not at the end of the tunnel. That can't be explained away by moaning about the opposition.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 02:27 PM

"Cobra is not a universal panacea"
This is real get-out-of-jail-freeism
Whatever the shortcoming of the present system (which only appear to surface hen the cock-up merchants need digging out of Klart-ups of their own making) that is what Briaish politics choose to work with and, if that's what they've got, they are to blame for it
I'd have had my arse kicled from here to breakfast--time if I tried "my screwdriver didn't work boss"
These fuck-pups are unacceptably life threatening (and taking) errors which have been noticed widely by the public and the press but are still being ignored
Perhaps it's time to re-visit Dr Ryan's film blog (Dave?) and note when he was demanding heads should roll

This is excusing the inexcusable for Party political purposes while far too many people are still falling ill and dying   
Maybe it can be pinned on Tony Blair or Corbyn ?
Nothing would surprise me anymore
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 02:41 PM

Philip Pullman in the Guardian:

Philip Pullman has said that the UK government “should be arraigned on charges of conspiracy to murder” if it is found that “for Brexit-related reasons” MPs did not take part in the EU procurement scheme to buy PPE.

The government has previously said it was unable to join the EU schemes as it had not received an email of invitation. But the Guardian revealed last week that the UK missed three opportunities to be part of the EU scheme to bulk-buy masks, gowns and gloves.

In a bitingly critical essay published by Penguin, the author of His Dark Materials says the entire front bench should resign if it is found to be true that MPs declined to participate “for Brexit-related reasons”. But Pullman predicted that no resignations would follow because the MPs responsible “have not a single grain of shame”.

“So they should be arraigned on charges of conspiracy to murder. Nothing less will do. They knew the risks, and thought they’d rather appease the foaming zealots of Brexit..."

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 03:18 PM

So whether the PM did or did not attend is a good indicator if he did that plate-stepping.

Maybe maybe not. But Not enough data to judge either way. It is also important to note the meeting may have been charged to present the PM with reasoned options.As was said earlier it is not essential for the PM to be present. The meeting was in cabinet office briefing room A. We have no knowledge of the frequency of meetings, the subjects discussed, or the constituent members.
The only gaugefor comparison we have in the public domain, that I can find, is that Blair attended 3 cobra meetings in the fist five years of his premiership. Apparently it is a big deal Boris missed a couple of meeting over the space of 2 months. Without knowing the members, or matters up for discussion it is merely a smear from the left. More "window" thrown out to needlessly distract the government from their job, while they have to refute the more outlandish media distortions. I would have thought the left would be better served seeking unity than constantly sniping at thee government, because once those court cases start labour is going to be a busted flush - straight down the pan.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 03:18 PM

.. so what's the peace time equivalent of "War Crimes"...???

.. and not even against a foreign enemy, but your own nation's citizens...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 03:25 PM

buggering cross-post 3:18.. mine should have posted first.. bah...

but anyway..

"I would have thought the left would be better served seeking unity"

Don't worry about that, we are more likely to make genuine attempts seeking that after the crisis,
despite inevitable tory resistance and cover ups...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 03:40 PM

According to this report in The Indepent the is a problem that much of the PPE is the wrong size for women.

I have referred to the book "Invisible Women" before which has a lengthy section on PPE being the wrong size and shape for women. It is mainly taking about army and police kevlar vests and similar, which only fairly recently discovered women have breasts it seems, since they made no allowance for them.

A completely different type of PPE of course, but is it plausible people are thinking more about numbers than whether they will fit? Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 04:02 PM

Whatever spin the rabidly-deluded Tory-boys here attempt to put on Johnson’s abject performance so far (words like ‘lipstick’ and the gloriously-apt ‘pig’ spring to mind!), Polly Toynbee nails it in The Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 04:05 PM

"Apparently it is a big deal Boris missed a couple of meeting over the space of 2 months."

2 = 5

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 04:24 PM

I should ask D. Abbot the queen of mathermagic!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 05:00 PM

More evidence that we are in the hands of a dangerously-incompetent government. From today's Guardian:

"The government has missed opportunities to secure at least 16m face masks for NHS staff in the past four weeks, amid growing frustration from companies who say Britain is losing much-needed equipment to other countries.

As ministers faced relentless questions over a shortage of personal protective equipment (PPE) in hospitals, suppliers said their offers to deliver UK-standard face masks were being met with silence from the government.

And on another day of chaos over the government’s PPE procurement, a senior civil servant said that its decision to stay out of a joint EU scheme was politically motivated. However he was forced to retract his claim within hours after he was contradicted by the health secretary, Matt Hancock.

Adding to the confusion, Hancock claimed that the UK had now joined the scheme – only for EU sources to note that that had happened recently so Britain would not benefit from the supplies of emergency equipment."

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Iains
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 05:17 PM

As soon as the Guardian is quoted we know it is an opinion piece, full of malicious inuendo and shy on fact.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 05:42 PM

You really do have to stop this. The piece I quoted is a news report, not an opinion piece. Comment is free. Facts are sacred.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Politics. Moderated thread
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 21 Apr 20 - 07:04 PM

"As soon as the Guardian is quoted we know it is an opinion piece, full of malicious inuendo and shy on fact."

well.. I'm not a big fan of the Guardian either..
so I can try to see that as an attempt at a jokey wind up..


But if you seriously believe your accusation is true...!!!???

that's exactly the same kind of crazily biased nonsense
parroted by fanatical far right BBC haters..

oh well.. each to their own conspiracy theories...