BS: Language Pet Peeves part II

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 08:10 AM

There are three sounds in both "ask" and "ax."

So it isn't laziness. It's a reversal of the order of the sounds. This is called "metathesis."

Oxford shows similar forms in use since Old English (before 900 AD). Here's a good example from the Coverdale Bible of 1535:

"Axe and it shall be given you."

(The first published English translation of the Old and New Testaments, predecessor of King James Version.)

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 01:27 PM

"Lazy American mouths" continue pronunciations that were in use long before English-speakers came to 'America'. What the heck is wrong with them?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: gillymor
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 02:38 PM

In the U.S. "ax" (for ask) has become a part of the language for African-Americans, nothing to do with laziness.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 03:49 PM

Interestingly, Oxford offers no examples, ever, of "ask" being used for "ax."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 04:30 PM

AKS.
https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/12074/why-is-ask-sometimes-pronounced-aks

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 05:05 PM

Interesting to read that "aks" was "down to 1600 the regular literary form."

So according to those of a mightily prescriptive bent, "aks" should be correct, and "ask" is an illiterate variant.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Mar 24 - 05:33 PM

"Trump frustrated as bond deadline nears and key bacteria identified in colon cancer cases."

There's now a name for these syntactically ambiguous sentences. They're called "crash blossoms."

Why? According to Merriam-Webster:

"While crash blossoms themselves are as old as newspapers, the term dates back to 2009, when editor Mike O'Connell saw an ambiguous headline that appeared in the newspaper Japan Today— 'Violinist Linked to JAL Crash Blossoms' —and wondered in the Testy Copy Editors forum, 'What's a crash blossom?'"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Mar 24 - 03:33 PM

I shall uae the term crash blossom going forward.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 04:53 AM

Has anyone brought up* the overuse of the term "key"? I can see why newspapers use it instead of "vital" in headlines (shortage-of-ink error), but I find use of it in speech to be unforgivably jarring, especially when overuse makes it a stand-in for "important", "noteworthy" or "interesting". There's so many "key" issues these days that there's no room in the door for anything else but locks.

"Key" is the 2024 equivalent of the 1960s "top" - everyone was a top scientist, a top politician, etc - until some comedian brought out a book called How to be Top, when it gradually faded away.

Words as analogies have these fashions. A few years ago "relish" was the trend, and it really annoyed me.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 05:36 AM

Talking of fashions in language (and my gripe is about pronunciation rather than actual vocabulary), am I the only one of our UK-contingent who has noticed the current fashion for pronouncing 'st' as 'sht' - so 'student' becomes 'shtudent', or 'street' becomes 'shtreet'? I've recently heard 'superstore' pronounced 'supershtore', amongst many annoying others.

It seems to be a BBC-driven phenomenon - the first offender I noticed indulging in this verbal mangling was that Richie character who presents the traffic bulletins (he also pronounces 'bus' as 'buzz' but, having worked with a guy from Dudley for a number of years, I'm used to that one). Unfortunately, 'sht' seems to have become the widely accepted pronunciation and I'm probably just a moaning old wrinkly, but it really boils my piss!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 05:56 AM

pronouncing 'st' as 'sht'

Sean Connery was the first one I noticed doing
it. Other than him, I can't say that I've noticed it much.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 07:11 AM

You need to listen to BBC Radio 2 Doug. They’re all doing it on there, and it’s spilling over to BBC TV Channels too.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 07:24 AM

If I listen to the radio at all, which I rarely do, then it's generally Radio 4. There is far more in the 'cheery' chat in between the music, on Radio 2, to annoy me, than the way they pronounce "st"/"sht".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 24 - 07:50 AM

When I was in Edinburgh a dozen years ago, I heard it a lot.

Listen closely to "Dr. No," etc., and you'll hear Sean Connery saying it regularly.

In my experience, it isn't as, er, "pronounced" as strongly as the letters "sh" might suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 10:37 AM

I haven't noticed Sht for St, but in Ireland I heard Chewsday, which comes after Monday, Chune, which you sing, and Jew, which forms droplets on grass in the early morning...

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 10:42 AM

> a book called How to be Top

There was a similar fashion for using "rules OK" in headlines (usually in the Sun iirc), which only died the death once some comedian or other pushed out "Dyslexia lures KO". They'd never get away with that death-stroke these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 24 - 10:57 AM

Heard about "Travel Reshtrictions" this morning from the BBC Radio 2 Traffic Nincompoop. WTAF?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Apr 24 - 10:59 AM

I keep reading about that hospital destroyed "after a 2-week raid" - isn't a raid a quick action? Somehow, if it lasted weeks, it wasn't a raid, to me. Attack, onslaught, not siege which lasts but you aren't in the place you are besieging, so, what? I don't think raid is the mot juste, here.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: leeneia
Date: 01 Apr 24 - 09:09 PM

"ax" (for ask) has become a part of the language for African-Americans, nothing to do with laziness.

Nah, I have heard white people from the south say ax. One of them was my own sister-in-law.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Apr 24 - 04:05 PM

I looked it up. A raid is "sudden" so no, it can't last weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 04 Apr 24 - 11:20 AM

Heard on local radio this morning: "It is almost impossible to understate his contribution to the world of comedy" ......

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Lighter
Date: 04 Apr 24 - 02:01 PM

Compare G. W. Bush's "misunderestimate."

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Apr 24 - 08:30 PM

What about the stupidity of the American people?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 24 May 24 - 02:26 PM

"Visible rocks and sandbars can be seen in the river .... "

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 May 24 - 10:14 PM

I somewhere, somehow acquired the notion that "fuzz" for the police arose as a sarcastic diminutive for "whiskers" and alluded to "Mr Whiskers," slang for Uncle Sam. Unlikelier things have turned out to be true.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Joe_F
Date: 24 May 24 - 10:23 PM

It is far too late to protest, but I will not use "stomach" to mean belly, which (IIRC) Fowler condemned as genteelism. When I was in high school, I had a teacher who, when he was in high school, had a teacher who said "The stomach is an internal organ. You can no more lie on your stomach than you can lie on your liver".

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 25 May 24 - 02:46 AM

I used to think "solar plexus" was a euphemism for the victim's, er, naughty bits.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 May 24 - 04:02 AM

..... I will not use "stomach" to mean belly, which (IIRC) Fowler condemned as genteelism.

The alternative is "abdomen".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: mayomick
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 06:07 AM

"it's all starting to kick off"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Aug 24 - 12:21 AM

I got interested in Chinese porcelain, and I was reading about cobalt, (actually cobalt compounds) which is what provides the blue paint in blue and white porcelain.

Much cobalt on the market today is mined in unregulated mines in Africa, where conditions are dreadful and thousands of children are put to work.

The language problem is that this cobalt is described as "artisanal." Talk about a weasel word!

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 12:07 PM

I had not come across the term 'gagging away' before. I read it today in The Guardian, writing about the USA mens 4 x 100m relay team.

"Even without Noah Lyles, who was out of the lineup due to Covid, the US entered the race as favorites. But over the past 20 years, they’ve had a knack for gagging away Olympic opportunities. The last time they captured a medal was in 2012, but that was later stripped for a doping violation."

A quick google revealed a few uses of the term, the earliest back in 2003. It does not appear that common.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 10 Aug 24 - 04:49 PM

It's not common enough for me to have heard it before. I can think of more common alternatives.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 06:43 AM

A perfect example of the misuse of the word "may" when "might" is correct: Washington Post headline says

Heat killed a sanitation worker. Pending safety rules may have saved him.

Oh? The man died, but then he was saved?
Nope. When you read the story he died. He wasn't saved. The headline should read "Heat killed a sanitation worker. Pending safety rules might have saved him"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 11 Aug 24 - 08:09 AM

Humans are not naturally good at computing risks. There seems to be a sliding scale involved:

* Will not happen
* Cannot eliminate the possibility that this will happen
* Might happen
* Could happen
* May happen
* Is likely to happen
* Cannot eliminate the possibility that this will *not* happen
* Will happen

That's why people tend to be scared of flying, but will happily take the greater risk of driving to the airport.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Thompson
Date: 14 Aug 24 - 04:54 AM

Excellent, Filk.
Meanwhile, there's a baffling misunderstanding of the use of 'immigration'.
Immigration is when you migrate into a country, emigration is when you migrate out of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: leeneia
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 01:12 AM

I don't think "gagging away" will ever catch on if all it means is wasting an opportunity. The gag reflex has too big a hold on our minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 02:00 AM

It’s not a term I’ve heard in use in the UK. Here, we would be much more likely to say ‘pissing away’ or, ever since our Blond Buffoon of a PM popularised the expression, ‘spaffing away’.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 02:38 AM

The use of the word" like"

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 06:54 AM

Re. Gagging.

I guess it is just a variation on the theme of choking, to choke, choker, which are quite often used in relation to sporting events.

I am not sure that it will catch on.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 12:19 PM

Gagging, I have heard the term used in Essex in rather a crude way,sommetimes with sex connotations
to be very eager to do something
to be very eager to do something: I was gagging for a pint of cold lager

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 12:39 PM

Hm: "gagging" in this sense may be a shortened form of lollygagging: dawdling, or fooling around (the latter with naughty implications). There's also lallygagging, which is slightly different. HTH.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 01:30 PM

Backwoodsman: "It’s not a term I’ve heard in use in the UK. Here, we would be much more likely to say .... " It entered this discussion as having appeared in The Guardian. No one so far seems familiar with it on either side of the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 04:51 PM

I have heard the expression, used by Essex people and cockneys.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 16 Aug 24 - 08:20 PM

But the expression, as it appeared in The Guardian, seems to have a different meaning than you're familiar with, so it's the same words expressing something different. From The Guardian: " ... they’ve had a knack for gagging away Olympic opportunities. The last time they captured a medal was in 2012, but that was later stripped for a doping violation" - so not meaning, "to be very eager to do something". Unless it is supposed to mean that the team in question gets so eager that they make mistakes or break rules (doping, for instance) ... I don't know - maybe that IS what it means ... ? Anybody?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 03:15 AM

yes, i have never heard it used like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 04:10 AM

Re. 'Gagging away'

It seems to be an American expression. I did find a use of it from 2002.

My favourite example is from the Wall Street Journal 13th August 2003

"Ben Curtis, who won last month's British Open not quite gagging away as the field gagged even more, and Thomas Bjorn, who in some parts has ..."

The article is titled Returning to the Scene Of the Choke Hill Crime

It is behind a paywall.Google search provided the snippet above.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 07:32 AM

So ... what exactly does "gagging away" and "gagged" mean, in that context? A quick google search hasn't helped - maybe I gagged it away?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Aug 24 - 08:49 AM

From Merriam-Webster

Choke

to lose one's composure and fail to perform effectively in a critical situation

had a chance to win the game but he choked.

Ben Curtis nearly choked but held on, unlike the chasing competitors.

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: meself
Date: 18 Aug 24 - 08:30 PM

So "gagging" in this sense is synonymous with "choking", then ... in which case it strikes me as an odd usage, in that, to my mind, when a professional athlete "chokes", it is an anomaly; otherwise, the athlete in question wouldn't be professional - so, for example, a basketball-player might "choke" when he's taking the foul shot that will win or lose the game, and miss the basket. The idea of a whole field of professional athletes "choking away" is almost comedic - but maybe that's what happened ... ?

Subject: RE: BS: Language Pet Peeves part II
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Aug 24 - 03:03 AM

Linguistically confusing since gagging means something else amongst essex women