BS: Student Fees UK

Subject: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:26 AM

How do people see the situation now.

The Libdems have sold their soles and secumbed to increasing fees at University. I am sure that will come back and bite them in the bum.


However, the reality is that we are now encouraging our children to go hoeplessly into debt.

If you take the latest fee suggestions + interest, a student could have a debt of over £30000 for fees and if they take a loan for their accomodation, then that will incur another £9000.

Is that truly what we want for our kids to grow up on.

Blimey that loan would get them a house. How will it affect them when they try to get a mortgage? Is the student loan taken into account? If so, they have no chance of buying their own house.

Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:29 AM

- should that be "souls", or are you worried about their podiatry?

- yes, it's another step on the road to abandoning learning in HFE and valuing things like "MBA" degrees (translation, how most effectively to swindle the rest of the world).

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:34 AM

It's bad enough at the moment - my son gets the maximum loan he can but it goes nowhere near covering his accomodation and living expenses. It's costing us about an extra £6000 a year to keep him at uni (plus help from his grandmother). It's a real struggle for us so what happens to families that just can't afford it?

My daughter is now 11 and by the time she's at uni I'll have retired (I'll be 69) so I dread to think how she's going to manage. Under this government society is becoming more and more devisive. This is one of things I'll be going to London to protest about on March 26.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:37 AM

Or 'divisive' rather.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:01 AM

We're looking at the extra years a vet studies followed by twins being old enough to go into bankruptcy. Suddenly, encouraging them to work in fast food for minimum wage, looks like a major economic improvement all round.
Quack!
GtD.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Lox
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:33 AM

"If you take the latest fee suggestions + interest, a student could have a debt of over £30000 for fees and if they take a loan for their accomodation, then that will incur another £9000."

... But don't you see ... this is necessary to get the country out of debt ...

... er ... no ... I mean ... um ... that is to say ...

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:40 AM

Ah Souls LOL Yes Richard. Rushed the post. Naughty me.

My daughter is at University and we can't afford to pay for it. So she is saddled with the fees and accomodation loans.
She wants to be a teacher (god help her) and that requires getting a degree. So no matter how hard I tried to get her to do an apprenticeship, it didn't happen.

That is one big regret I will have when I go to my grave. The fact we couldn't afford to pay for our daughters costs.

Incidentally, this represents a 200% hike in fees!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM

Quote from Lox
... But don't you see ... this is necessary to get the country out of debt ...






Yes and shouldn't we as parents be deeply ashamed and embarrasssed for putting our children into this mess.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Stu
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 06:00 AM

It's somewhat typical of the sort of governance of any stripe we seem to be lumbered with these days that their utter inability to look past the short-term means any investment in our future is dumped. All we are doing is shifting our country's debt onto the young. These kids should be educated FOC in world-class universities.

Who knows which future innovator or genius is now going to slip through the net because myopic tossers in suits want to protect their own interests?

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Lox
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:32 AM

"All we are doing is shifting our country's debt onto the young."

Exactly!

In fact there is no "we" about it.

I have always been frugal and spent within my means.

Somebody else is shifting their debt onto my Daughter.

Shame on THEM!

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 10:03 AM

That's about it Lox

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:22 AM

it is interesting how the LibDems can promise the earth when they have no chance of trying to deliver... I assume this absurd climbdown will make them think twice about raising peoples' hopes up with undeliverable promises come the next election. No? thought not.

I am rather lucky in that I am of an age when higher education was cheap, even though I served an apprenticeship and had my HND paid for by The National Coal Board (AMEME (hons).

Ironically, the academic things I did afterwards I paid for fully myself, both my MBA and my PhD. (The PhD was funded by a collection of companies, mine included.) So in terms of personal experience, I never had to scrape to start a career after education. My youngest however has just finished his Masters, having now spent 6 years at uni'. if it wasn't for me paying, and luckily, I can do so, he would have been saddled with thousands and thousands of debt. Under the new proposals, that would have been a few thousand more...

My only dissent to the general consensus on this thread is that the last government decided that university was the preferred option for all young people to aspire to, yet other ways of education such as apprenticeships and less academic training was looked down on. That was a mistake. A big one. My eldest did a similar 5 year apprenticeship to me, in mining, and is now a director of a company with all the opportunity and lifestyle that offers. Again like me, he prefers to employ his engineers from the ranks of tech colleges rather than universities. the overall useful knowledge is still there, but with the advantage of knowing how to hold a spanner. Quite.

For me, the PhD was useful when I was in business, but now, the only qualification of use is my MBA, not for telling me how to think, but letting on to how others think and for that, it is most useful. My point being that university for university sake is not an answer but to aid a career with a coherent qualification is the best option. if a university can offer that, fine, but young people should be encouraged to look at other options, and employers should join the debate...

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:26 AM

American guy on the radio this morning, saying that the cheapest US university costs were about £12000, going up to stratospheric amounts like £30000 for top colleges.
How do they manage?

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:39 AM

I think it's sad when a university education is simply seen as a means to getting a job. By withdrawing funding from the Humanities, this government is saying that the millennia of learning, thought and even history that have created our civilisation is not worthy of study. Or is it that they want to concentrate REAL learning amongst a small, wealthy elite?

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 11:57 AM

Quote
I think it's sad when a university education is simply seen as a means to getting a job.
Unquote

Well if you want to be a teacher, you need to get a degree and steep yourself in debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 01:50 PM

I remain of the view that an MBA is a degree in how to awindle people.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:02 PM

Perhaps if you knew anything about one, you might just...

Oh never mind. You don't need help expanding your knowledge, you just need help. Sorry that many of those who get on with running things so that society can function just happen to have one? Envy again is it Richard III?   

This is a thread about student fees, not which qualifications you need to be an armchair socialist. My MBA is, as I said above, the one qualification from whose course I find useful in my present role. I don't swindle people therefore one of us is talking out of his arse again. Hang on, let me think.....

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:44 PM

I wonder how long they'll start charging tuition fees for any young person who wants to stay on at school into the sixth form. After all, the chances are that they will end up earning more than kids who leave earlier.

Education should be free at all ages.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 02:45 PM

I wonder how long they'll start charging tuition fees for any young person who wants to stay on at school into the sixth form. After all, the chances are that they will end up earning more than kids who leave earlier.

Education should be free at all ages. If people earn more, that's what income tax is for.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:18 PM

Precisely, Kevin. And if the really high earners paid more tax, as they should, we wouldn't be in this position.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:21 PM

Guys, I've been trying to tell you for years now that everyone's been sold a dream.

Education is an INDUSTRY, from which there are many people making loadsa money.

Also, if you want a population to be easy to control what do you do?
Well, you make them so snowed under with debt, worries, depression, stress, examinations, constant studying and loss of hope that they literally have no emotions left, no interest in taking to the streets, because they feel their lives have been buggered up already and there's no way out.

For years there have NOT been any jobs for all these Uni Graduates...plus, of course, they've lowered and lowered the pass rates, to ensure that the vast majority of folks will want to go to Uni in the first place, to gain useless degrees that mean fuck all 'out there' in Reality Land, where Dime-a-Dozen-Degrees now carry little respect from employers...

Yes, they *demand* that you're Uni Educated, but that doesn't help you get a job!

It's all part of the bigger plan..and folks need to take a step back and realise what a total dream of utter crap they've been sold...then get mind-blowingly angry and take to the streets about it all.

I mean, come ON, think about this logically....IF *everyone* has a degree, what's the point of them????

And most jobs want you to have other exams anyway, like NVQs, and of course, you can't have last year's one, but need to have THIS year's one..because it's all been updated and so you couldn't possibly understand your job without one...

It's an INDUSTRY!   

GCSEs, A Levels, in different parts these days, Degrees, Higher Degrees, Lower Degrees, Three Degrees (they were good gals!) ;0)

Tell you what...get your kids to take an Open University Degree. If you're on a low income and they are too, then they'll get a grant (at the moment, anyway)...if not, well, they can work whilst they're studying and 'pay as they go', choosing the time they take to gain the degree they really want...

TELL your children it's all shite, and NOT the way forward...Get them to get a SKILL rather than a degree. A SKILL that they can take to any country in the world, one that's not going to go belly-up with everything else...a skill that people will always need...

But studying Ancient Icelandic, Media Studies, Football or Dance ain't going to get you a job, just a huge hole in your pocket...

Of course, it's all very clever, because The Corporate Education Bastards have made it very difficult to find ANY job without the 'proper' examination pass..but you have to rise above all that, sell yourself, be different, bring out the entrepeneur in your children...

Then of course, you hit the Brick Wall of 'applying for a job online' where you have to pass STOOPID psychological tests, giving them the answers they're looking for, so they think you're the right kind of robot to work for them..Don't tell them their jobs are shite, and their ethics and morals are FAR worse, 'cos that doesn't go down very well...

I've already told M&S this, and Waitrose, and Sainsburys, and....Hell, it made me feel better!! LOL    I also got them scurrying round to explain to me why they penalise folks who either aren't computer literate, or who have dyslexia...That put the legal shit up them, I can tell ye! ;0) Now, they'll deal with you on the phone and help you fill their forms in...not that that helps, because...you still have to pretend that you're a cloned prole with no mind of your own, just there to do as you're told...

My friend's son, who has a Masters Degree earns less than my daughter, who's still studying for her Open Uni degree, whilst working her socks off in a full time job that she loves. She bought her own car for £600, pays for it herself and is damned proud that she's done it all on her own...because it means so much to her...

Other friends have just taken out a loan to buy their daughter a car..??? Why??? You work, you save up, you buy your own car...or at least, that's what folks used to do. My daughter worked out that it would take her 3 years to afford such a car..and she told her pal that, who'd never even given it a thought...because Mum and Dad just paid up and provided as ever...

Do NOT let The Corporate Bastards make you feel guilty about not caring for your children...It's all madness..but it's been very cleverly done.

You wanna help your kids? Then teach them to be Independant and Individual...and they'll get along just fine in the end..

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Arthur_itus
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:22 PM

Well I think this will do a lot of damage to Condoms

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:36 PM

"get your kids to take an Open University Degree."

What exposure I've had to the OU - albeit second-hand - has convinced me that the quality of tuition is jolly good and actually more rigorous and critical (by which I mean neither easier nor harder, just more useful for the student) than what I received as an undergraduate.

Otherwise for all there is to recommend it, the OU also lacks most of what University offers young people. Including the extremely broad range of subjects that can be studied. I still think it's a very good option for working adults.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:49 PM

Funny, Willie, I get the distinct impression that that's the ONLY thing you have any interest in. DO tell us, what do you actually do that is useful or for the public benefit rather than to line your own pockets with money taken from others?

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:56 PM

The thing is, so many have now been 'conditioned' into the Conveyer Belt of Life, as I call it...They simply move along it, without questioning...

I never went to Uni, never wanted to, like living with Mum and Dad, wasn't made to feel I *had* to move out, or that I *should* move out, as so many kids feel today. Most of my friends stayed at home until they got married, I was no different in that respect...

I worked full time from the age of 17, as most of us did back then...There were a few who went to Uni, but they were few, pretty brainy too, as I recall. I don't remember anyone sitting round in puddles of tears bemoaning that they couldn't go to Uni, we simply just got on with earning some money, and enjoying ourselves.

You can learn at ANY time of your life.

My friend was told, by Sidmouth College, that her daughter would *never* be able to catch up on her English (she'd missed a few weeks, due to illness)...What a load of boloney!

You should never stop learning...and if we had school functioning in the right way, then most kids would have an innate love of learning all sorts of things. We muck it up by testing, examining, failing, pressurising, stressing, demoralising..

And don't even get me going on The School Prom and Gap Year Corporate Bastards, else I'll be here all night! LOL ;0)

(And yes, I can hear the jokes..."What? You, Lizzie? Not been to Uni? Surely not!") ;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: MikeL2
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 03:58 PM

hi

Much to think about on this thread.

But I happen to agree with SW about the way in which far more students attend universities than are needed.

Successive governments - not just Labour - have wanted more school leavers to go to university. Originally this was to massage the jobless figures, now it's more to keep up with the Jones's than anything else.

My parents were too poor to be able to afford for me to go to university. At that time nobody in our situation went so there was no disappointment or jealousy.

I went into the RAF and was taught a trade - electronics and communications. They paid for me to go to University to study languages...in my case Russian. This has stood me in good stead and I know that I have done much better than many of my peers at school whose parents could pay for them to go to university.

I have two boys neither of who wanted to go to university and took engineering apprenticeships with large engineering companies who paid them and paid for the necessary college attendances etc etc.

They have both done well and have started their own small businesses that are doing fine despite the gloomy financial situation.

My eldest grandson ( the only one of working age at the moment) was lucky to be able to secure an apprenticeship with Eon and was chosen from a shortlist of five from 700 applicants. Such apprenticeships are scarce !!!

He has just this year come out of his time and now commands a well-paid job with excellent prospects for the future. Most of his school friends have been ( or are still at ) university. Several of them with almost useless degrees and jobs with no prospects and paltry salaries.

The problem for todays school leavers is as Lizzie says. They are part of a plan to drive them all to university like flocks of sheep, with the direction of a sheepdog.

University today is seen as a life experience rather than an education for most of the attendees.

Me.......I went to the University of Life...and so did my kids.

Cheers

Mikel2

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:13 PM

It's nothing more than the Tory's cynical way of making a University education elitist again, aided by the fuckwits, who will go back on all their election promises when Cameron tells them to.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:18 PM

Possibly one of the few moments I find myself in agreement with Willie (keep getting the Zappa playing through my head). There must be more options. Many of my family - and in particular those who where very financially successful - entered their working careers via apprenticeships. A blanket "degree" cannot be the answer.

Personally I found the attempted amalgamation of old-style academic Universities with vocational Polytechnics to be a sort of 'brave new world' embarrassed attempt to brush "lesser" physical type work, under the educational carpet by "raising" them to the 'socially aspirational' status of more classically red-brick academic degrees.
In any event I found it all that pile of poo.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:20 PM

Botched editing, but never mind!

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 04:44 PM

Well it appears now you can go to the local public toilet, which has been granted the right to issue degrees, and come out with a degree in shitology

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Nov 10 - 08:49 PM

And Thirty years of debt as well John

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:42 AM

Me? I take sweets off children, kick old ladies' sticks from under them, swindle pensioners by asking them to put the kettle on whilst checking under their mattress, evict tenants if I reckon I can get more money from a different tenant, flick dogs' balls with rubber bands, choke up the planet towing an old caravan with a decrepit Volvo, waste university resource by being paid to talk bollocks, sing off key...

Oh, hang on. Starting to drift into other peoples' nightmares again.

Sorry about that.

Ok, Richard III, howsabout this? if were religious, I could feel smug enough about the fluffy cloud awaiting me as a thanks for my altruism.

Just to answer your question respectfully, (not that it matters as you have a preconceived idea of me that happens to differ from the opinion you have of the real me,) I spend most of my retirement time "interfering with health and social care." For that, I get my out of pocket expenses. Takes up about 3 days per week. I call it putting something back.

To everybody else, sorry about this, I know it seems to be derailing the thread but Richard III split the thread by questioning the merit of some qualifications versus others. To bring that around to this debate, perhaps coherent versus general education is something to be debated some time, especially as with the tuition fees, students and employers will need to be a bit sharper.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 05:45 AM

No everyone wants to go to university, but those who do should be able to without saddling themselves (or their families) with years of debt. Our country and our society will be a much poorer place (in so many ways) without this option.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:16 AM

"The problem for todays school leavers is as Lizzie says. They are part of a plan to drive them all to university like flocks of sheep, with the direction of a sheepdog."

Which is, presumably, why they're trippling tuition fees. Please, not another conspiracy theorist.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Jim McLean
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 06:22 AM

I think we should point out for the benefit of non UK Mudcat members that this is an English issue and does not affect Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland. There was an outcry recently concerning Scottish MPs voting on English issues in the UK parliament. Danny Alexander is a Liberal MP in Scotland and chief Secretary to the Treasury, will he vote against or abstain along with Menzies Campbell and Charles Kennedy, high profile Scottish Liberal MPs, against the raising of Uni fees in England?

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 07:45 AM

I don't think I have ever used any of the stuff I was formally taught at university, or for that matter in the sixth form, in the course of earning a living.

What matters are some of the skills you pick up along the way. And the main value of those are likely to be for what you do in between earning a living, which are likely to be the most important things.

The idea that university is primarily about producing people who will be more equipped to work more productively (or whatever) strikes me both as wrongheaded and naive. Unfortunately we seem to have reached a situation where a degree is seen as a necessary label people have to carry in order to get an increasing range of jobs which they could do just as well without a degree. But in order to get that label young people are required to saddle themselves with an enormous debt.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:01 AM

"he Master of Business Administration (MBA or M.B.A.) is a master's degree in business administration, which attracts people from a wide range of academic disciplines. The MBA designation originated in the United States, emerging from the late 19th century as the country industrialized and companies sought out scientific approaches to management. The core courses in the MBA program are designed to introduce students to the various areas of business such as accounting, marketing, human resources, operations management, etc. Students in some MBA programs have the option to select an area or multiple areas of concentration and focus approximately one-third of their studies in this subject."

Accounting - whether 2+2 = 5 or 3 depends on whether you are buying or selling.
Marketing - the ability to get people to pay for things they don't need
Human resources - the expertise in how to fire and bully people without getting sued
Operations management - the expertise in bullying, bribing, or coercing others into doing what you want them to do whether it is or is not part of their proper responsibility.


Academic learning includes philosophy, theology (if you can call it academic rather than inspirational), law, mathematics, ancient languages, modern languages, literature, fine arts, hard sciences like physics or chemistry. You might even include economics at a push.

You gave the game away Willie when you admitted that you found your MBA the most useful of your qualifications. Now we know where your heart lies.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 08:08 AM

It's amazing how many graduates during my time at Binder Hamlyn who admitted that the final examination of the Institute of Chartered Accountants was infinitely more difficult than any endured at university despite their "fast track status", and I would imagine that to be even more so now.

Subject: RE: BS: Student Fees UK
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 04 Nov 10 - 09:27 AM

Yup, my heart lies (or lay to be exact) in business efficiency.

When I chaired an NHS trust, efficiency led to more funds available for front line services. When I was in business, efficiency meant "don't interfere with what you cannot measure."

MBA was the most academic course I ever took, especially using your definition of academia. Economics were at a push, a huge bugger of a push. Philosophy underlined everything. After all, we were not raw kids learning how to, but comparing what we did with what others did and how they measured their success. Like most post graduate courses, based on understanding yourself more, so perhaps I could add your theology and modern languages?

You know, the evil warped fat cats you are so paranoid about have more chance of having an MBA than have, say, a media studies degree. But that is about as relevant as saying they also hold a UK driving licence, therefore all drivers are evil.

Sounds silly? No more silly than your paranoid ramblings that those who get on with running things all have bad motives. Pathetic my friend, sadly pathetic. (I look forward to citing of publications that prove me to be wrong. If it helps, I hear The Morning Star has a section in the fiction part of their library....)