BS: Can Obama Command.

Subject: BS: Can Obama Command?
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:16 AM

This is in a way a much more open question than the same one about McCain. I was a lot less sure about it before this morning. But George Lakeoff, a smiling, bearded professor of UC Berkley, has convinced me that Obama has powerful tools to be a leader.

Lakeoff talk

Obama may be the first Democratic Party leader in a long time to really understand the opposition. The talk I linked to is very eye opening. It really puts the Clinton's, Conservative think tanks, and Karl Rove in perspective for me.

Obama, gets it. He really, really gets it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:21 PM

First off, and most important, he has a high IQ Lacking that, you have W

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

HE demonstrated the ability to apply that intelligencve over and over again in managing a highly improbable campaign for the nomination. His campaign has been more skilled and more fiscally steady than either Hillary's or John's.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 01:24 PM

I looked on the web for IQ's. Its tough to estimate because there are two different scales with vastly different measures. But considering that he went to Columbia and Harvard on scholarship and Graduated summa cum laude from Harvard. I am at least convinced that he has a great ability to acquire knowledge and communicate it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

That's a very insightful talk, Jack. Impressions are everything when one is campaigning, because people form their judgements on impressions which are created mostly by subconscious triggering. The Right has understood this for some time, and has been using it to great effect. Obama also appears to understand it.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Bee
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

I have read somewhere (might even have been on Mudcat) a description of Obama as a professor by a former law student of his. It was, as I remember, a very reassuring portrait of a man who is not egotistical, is intelligent and thoughtful, careful to consider before diving into anything, is not a follower and not a person who likes 'cronyism', and has a good dose of kindness in him.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

I was impressed to read about how he was president of the Harvard law society and editor of the Harvard review - a document which informs and impacts on US law.

That the guy has guts, determination, focus, and a clear head is obvious to me after all the nonsense of the Democratic nominee campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:05 PM

I think that everyone should remember that good leaders are not necessarily good commanders (if you mean in the military sense), and of course the other way around also. For someone to say, "I am the commander in chief and what I say goes" is neither leadership nor a good command, but the ego of a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: kendall
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

General Useless S. Grant was a war hero but a piss poor president.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 06:55 PM

Kennedy was a war hero and he almost started World War Three.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 09:44 PM

It's only my opinion, but I think Jimmy Carter was the last real leader and commander the US has had.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 16 Aug 08 - 10:59 PM

Rapaire - I agree with that completely. Jimmy Carter really made a super-human effort to take-on and deal with the really hard, long range problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:06 AM

I'm curious to know what criteria are being used to determine that Carter was a real leader and commander. (Not because I disagree, but because I feel I don't know enough about Carter.)

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: kendall
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:05 AM

Carter was a military officer who served without distinction as far as I know. As president, he was a micro manager; a job way too big for him, or anyone else. He was also an outsider. He took a lot of crap for things that were not his fault. He also got Israel and Egypt to sign a peace treaty, an act that got Sadat killed.

After leaving office, he took to building houses for the poor while Ronald Raygun was flying around making speeches at a million dollars a pop.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:23 AM

Carter's efforts in the Middle East did more to bring civility to the region than anything else. It's unfortunate that Sadat was murdered, but anything he did at the time would have angered somebody, and that's the way they deal with problems there.

                Carter established the Department of Energy, and tried to put into place all of the alternative sources that are being talked about today. If he'd been able to serve a second term, I doubt very seriously that we'd even be talking about energy now.

                He also established the Department of Education. And if he hadn't been bushwhaked by Teddy Kennedy, the Ayotollah Khomeini, and others, and had been allowed to serve a second term, we wouldn't be worrying about letting in more foreign workers under the H1-B visa program. The high-tech industries would be very happy to simply hire American workers.

                The world would be a much better place today if the US had not subjected the world to 8 years of Ronald Reagan.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:55 AM

Ah, Rig, truer words were never spoken.

There's hope for you yet!!! :D



A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:39 AM

Lakeoff is a compelling analyst and identifies the reasons behind the Obama phenomenon.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:59 AM

Completely agree Rig, he was touted as the Peanut Farmer but in truth he turned out to be a 1st class World Ambassador which if he weren't bushwacked, railroaded & put up as a sideahow who got side tracked by others he would've far out done in 8 years what every other 8 yearer has done since.

Anyway, back to Obama. It would be a rare treat to finally after so long have some one in office, anyhigh office that had a good working knowledge of the law instead of a background of circumventing it & also some one again who had a level of respect for the law. MaCain, IMO has as little respect & knowledge for the law as Bush, even contemt if it's in their way. Without those qualities one has no right to be in a position to command.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: bankley
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

slightly off-topic but, I watched a docu-film the other night called "Jimmy Carter. Man from Plains"... done less than 2 years ago when he was on the road promoting and taking flak for his last book.
Very well done... and the music is good... now I understand why he wasn't in Plains, Ga when I dropped by there last year.... but I have a T-shirt... it's plain too...

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:11 AM

In addition, to have someone who understands the framework of thought that makes the law work.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:17 AM

When the attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran failed (because of wide-spread f**ckups) Carter went to television and said, in effect, "I'm the Commander-In-Chief and as such it's my responsibility."

When 283 marines died a few years later in Lebanon, Reagan went on television and said in effect, "Heads will roll!"

Carter, who has a degree in nuclear engineering, went to TMI to see what went wrong and how to fix it. W, who has a degree in, I think, business, simply looks for ways to continue the sins of the past.

Leadership? Command?

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 10:56 AM

I think history will treat Carter a lot better than he's being treated now.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:20 AM

Ayeh!

Dang, Rig, I must be slipping--that's two comments you made I agree with completely! ":D


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

Not any better than you can piss on command!

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:23 PM

Rapaire, here's something interesting... You said:

"When the attempt to rescue the hostages in Iran failed (because of wide-spread f**ckups) Carter went to television and said, in effect, "I'm the Commander-In-Chief and as such it's my responsibility."

When 283 marines died a few years later in Lebanon, Reagan went on television and said in effect, "Heads will roll!"


Yeah. Okay, so here's what happened in those two cases.

1. Carter was honest. He took responsibility. Result? He was seen as a weak sister by the majority of the American public!

2. Reagan made exactly the right political move. He blamed someone farther down the chain of command, blamed the enemy, and talked tough! Result? He was seen as a strong, decisive commander by the majority of the American public!

You see, being honest and taking responsibility will not necessarily get you anywhere good in politics. Nor will humility. ;-) Not if you have an ill-informed public with the attention span of a fruit fly and the emotional maturity of a 16-year-old. Uh-uh. What will get you somewhere in politics is creating a superficial impression of strong and decisive command and repeating bellicose patriotic cliches. Reagan did that.

An intellectual will approve Carter's approach and recognize it for what it is. Most Americans are not intellectuals, in fact they are anti-intellectual. Reagan played it in exactly the way that would make him look strong and it worked for him.

The fact that the Republicans have a good understanding of that is one of the things that has helped them hold an advantage over the Democrats in the last few decades. The Republicans deal in simplistic emotional BS...and it works, politically. That's because most people are not all that rational, and they don't pay much attention to logic, evidence, or detail...they pay attention to overall outward emotional impressions which are partly subliminal and not very rational...but extremely powerful.

Reagan was a master when it came to dealing with that.

And so was Clinton, actually. ;-) That's why he won 2 elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

I seem to recall that the hostage 'rescue' was a SNAFU because a helicopter went down before they could achieve the assault.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

That's right. There was a helicopter crash in the desert. It may have been a collision between 2 helicopters...don't remember exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 02:16 PM

THe Lakeoff discussion linked in the first post by Jack is really intelligent and an interesting take on the stale pictures of politics. Highly recommended.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

Among other things, the maintenance people didn't put the requisite dust filters on the 'copter engines and they basically tore themselves to pieces with gritty oil. And that was only the start!

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:38 PM

Is that a common thing... forgetting to put the dust filters on, or was that a freak occurance?

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 04:38 PM

Carter came to office at a very bad time. Oil crisis, the aftermath of Watergate, Chickens coming home to roost in Iran.

Most Americans wanted to be lied to. Individuals wanted to be told that they could be as greedy and wasteful and they wanted, that the future was bright, and easy and as long as they stuck to their "values" "God" would look after their needs. While Reagan was telling them the above and making deals with terrorists. Carter was telling America it had to be adult, make sacrifices, solve the energy crises and tale responsibility for its actions. His skills as a leader had little to do with why he lost the election.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 05:34 PM

MIght have been caused by a Purple Haze, Carol. It is not usual in anyone trained in desert ops.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 06:15 PM

I don't think Amos was way off the Mark

Morale in the military was at an all time low.
It was a very complicated intra-service, special operation.
They just didn't have the equipment or the people to pull it off.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:16 PM

That's right, Jack. People want to be lied to (not literally, but they want to be told what they want to hear, right?).

That's one of the reasons the political scene has become so phony and manipulative.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 07:41 PM

"Can Obama Command?"

             In a word, no. By the time he got the orders out, the war would be over.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 08:10 PM

Bull-pucky, Rig. His _genuine_ response to a question is more rapid, relevant and immediate than any of the PR kneejerk automated response systems of which his opponents are so fond.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Riginslinger
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 09:53 PM

The absurdity debate they had the other night seems to run counter to that observation. But I do think what Obama says he believe is right on a number of things. I'm just not sure I can put much stock in what he "says" he believes.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 08 - 11:55 PM

Well, man, that is something you have to come to terms with one way or the other. I think he's a clearer thinker than anyone else in the field.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 12:00 AM

No one knows if anyone can command until he takes command...(unless they have known him personally for some time and seen him under stress).

No one here knows Obama personally.

Further speculation on the matter, therefore, is just a lot of blowing smoke, and it reveals nothing more than the poster's prejudice either for or against Obama.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Jack The Sailor
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 06:32 AM

The reason I asked the question in the first place was in reference to the link to the talk I had posted. I think that professor Lakeoff makes a case that Obama has exceptional skills and insight. He, so far may be unique in these skills among Democrats.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Obama Command.
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 19 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM

The plan to rescue the hostages was a mess from the beginning, and too complicated to run smooth. It was bound to fail. An acquaintance was in the situation room when this was going on, watching it from the satellite images, and though he advised against it, they did it anyway..and as it unfolded, he wept for the men in the mission, when the crash was watched, and their fate happened. It was completely avoidable. We lacked HUMINT..and that was the problem. There was a window of opportunity, earlier, that came and went..be we did not act. ..for what its worth...I don't know if anyone is really interested, or if you're just having a discussion, for the sake of yakking, but I have a whole lot of data on this....that never made the news..but..so what?
Also the reason why the kidnapping, and what it was that got them released....NOTHING LIKE WHAT WE HEARD ON THE 'NEWS'....