BS: For Your Information: Torture.

Subject: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:22 PM

Today, once again, Vice President Dick Cheney came out in favor of waterboarding to get information from suspected terrorists.

Waterboarding:

The victim is strapped to a board and either tipped back or lowered into a body of water until he or she believes that drowning is imminent. The tortured person then is removed from the water and revived. If deemed necessary, the routine is repeated.

Although there are several forms of water-based interrogation, all variants have in common that the victim almost drowns, but is rescued or re-animated by his or her captor. The technique is designed to be both a psychological and a physical torture. The psychological effect is inherent in the fact that the victim is made to understand that he or she shall be killed outright by drowning unless the demanded co-operation is promptly given. This perception reinforces the interrogator's control, giving the torture victim sound cause to experience mortal fear.

The technique characterized in 2005 by former CIA director Porter J. Goss as a "professional interrogation technique, involves tying the victim to a board with the head lower than the feet so that he or she is unable to move. A piece of cloth is held tightly over the face, and water is poured onto the cloth. Breathing is extremely difficult and the victim will be in fear of imminent death by asphyxiation. Journalists Brian Ross and Richard Esposito described the CIA's waterboarding technique as follows:

"The physical effects of waterboarding can be extreme pain and damage to the lungs, brain damage caused by oxygen deprivation and sometimes broken bones because of the restraints applied to the struggling victim. The psychological effects can be long-lasting."

Dr. Allen Keller, the director of the Bellevue/N.Y.U. Program for Survivors of Torture, has treated "a number of people" who had been subjected to forms of near-asphyxiation, including waterboarding. An interview for The New Yorker states: "[Dr. Keller] argued that it was indeed torture. Some victims were still traumatized years later, he said. One patient couldn't take showers, and panicked when it rained. "The fear of being killed is a terrifying experience," he said.

Historically, waterboarding and similar techniques were used by the Inquisition to elicit confessions from accused heretics. In pre-Revolution American colonies, in some strict religious communities, a variation called "dunking" was used the get women to confess that they were witches or in league with the Devil. If they refused to confess, the dunking was continued until they drowned. If they confessed, they were hanged. Similarly, if the accused heretic before the Inquisition confessed, it was assumed that his or her soul was now saved and they were mercifully hanged. If they refused to confess, they were either drowned on the spot or were revived and taken to an "auto de fé" (public execution) and burned at the stake.

A Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, was tried in 1947 for carrying out a form of waterboarding on a U.S. civilian during World War II, and was sentenced to 15 years at hard labor. The charges against Asano included other abuses of prisoners.

On the issue of waterboarding, the United States charged Yukio Asano, a Japanese officer on May 1 to 28, 1947, with war crimes. The offenses were recounted by John Henry Burton, a civilian victim: "After taking me down into the hallway they laid me out on a stretcher and strapped me on. The stretcher was then stood on end with my head almost touching the floor and my feet in the air. They then began pouring water over my face and at times it was impossible for me to breathe without sucking in water. The torture continued and continued." Yukio Asano was sentenced to fifteen years at hard labor.

We punished people with fifteen years at hard labor when waterboarding was used against Americans in World War II.

On September 6, 2006, the United States Department of Defense released a revised Army Field Manual entitled "Human Intelligence Collector Operations" that prohibits the use of waterboarding by U.S. military personnel. The revised manual was adopted amid widespread criticism of U.S. handling of prisoners in the "War on Terrorism," and prohibits other practices in addition to waterboarding.

The revised manual applies to U.S. military personnel, and as such does not apply to the practices of the CIA.

In its 2005 Country Reports on Human Rights Practices, the U.S. Department of State formally recognizes "submersion of the head in water," as torture in its examination of Tunisia's poor human rights record.

Mr. Vice President, regarding your approval of waterboarding as an "acceptable interrogation method,

Not in My Name!

Don Firth

[Information gleaned from several web sites. --DF]

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM

Ah but that when a foreigner was doing it to Americans.

The other way round is a totally different matter.

I think the basic rule is, Cheney has said he does not approve of or sanction torture. Therefore anything which he approves of or sanctions cannot be classed as torture.

It's rather like when Blair at one time said, in effect, that if he had lied to the House of Commons, that would mean he would have had to resign, so, since he hadn't resigned, that proved he had not lied to the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:56 PM

It would not surprise me to learn that Cheny was the reincarnation of some really psycho Japanese official-torturer. He looks evil enough to have spent many lifetimes being a sadist. But, I shouldn't judge by appearances, I know. I think I'll go ahead and reach the same conclusions based on his performance.

A

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 03:56 PM

Fact is, what Cheney actually said, in response to a talk-show host's (Scott Hennen, a conservative radio show host from Fargo, N.D.) question "Would you agree a dunk in water is a no-brainer if it can save lives?" was that "it's a no-brainer for me," but for a while there, I was criticized as being the vice president for torture. We don't torture. That's not what we're involved in." The White House has distinguished between "dunking" and "waterboarding", although neither, IMHO, exactly amounts to compassionate conservatism..

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Amos
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:14 PM

Here's the more extensive WaPO coverage.

Cheney left his statement ambiguous, and only implied, with plausible deniability, that he was condoning waterboarding, because he COULD have been talking about pushing sopmeone into the deep end with their hands tied over and over, or pushing them underwater briefly in a lake, or any number of other of his possible "no-brainer" explanations.

Ambiguity, to a politician of his stripe, is a priceless commodity, no??

I'd love to have a senior politician who figured out what he meant before he opened his mouth, said what he meant, and made it clear what he was saying.

A

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:25 PM

Amos, I was actually visualizing an interrogator holding someone (gently, of course) by the hair and repeatedly holding his head underwater in a bucket.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:38 PM

IF Cheney hasn't been through a full-baptism, I am sure we could find a few volunteers...ones who might just forget how long he should be dunked in order to be *saved.*

NOT IN MY NAME, EITHER!

Thanks, Don, for info.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:50 PM

Waterboard (verb) Cheney...

Then when you crack him ask him why he is such an assh*le...

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 04:58 PM

I suspect that somewhere in Iraq, they got one guy to tell 'em something using this technique, so now it's an 'approved' method....just in case.

I am a funny mixture of saddened, sickend, appalled, angry, frustrated and ....embarrassed.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

Perhaps "no brainer", as a label for ideas that Cheney thinks make sense is fairly appropriate.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: SINSULL
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:27 PM

And what about the person trained to perform this outrage? Do you then set him loose on the general population while pretending he is psychologically sound? How do they choose them?

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: skipy
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:48 PM

scenario :- an individual has planted 10 bombs in a city, one has gone off in a school killing 200+ children, the other nine are primed to go, they are somewhere? churches, supermarkets, subways, trains, hotels, etc. They are set to go, you know that they have an end time (if not found and disarmed they will blow). The bomber is caught, you now have to find out where they are, when they are due to blow, how to disarm them, the city is now at a standstill.
Options:-
1 Do nothing
2 Talk to the bomber (nutter) in the hope that he/she will tell you all.
3 Scare him/her shitless with a tank of water to get the info you need.
YOUR CALL
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:10 PM

Skipy

problem is, ALL people (including, you, me and the President of the US) will say anything to stop torture. ANYTHING. and so, if we don't have any information, WILL MAKE UP INFORMATION to stop the torture, and thus lead investigators on a wild goose chase following up wrong information.

and if we are guilty and have people or an operation to protect, we will still MAKE UP INFORMATION to stop the torture, and thus lead investigators on a wild goose chase following up wrong information. and ten to one, being unethical, maniacal bombers, or being criminally insane, or being the President of the US, we will dob in people who we either suspect, hate or don't like and accomplish two missions in the one go - gaining favour with the torturers and thus gaining protection, and sending them off after our enemies.

Torture is an admission by the torturing authorities that they have no evidence. It is a wildly unreliable form of investigation. And it breaks down all the rules. If their government knows your government will torture, all POWs from your government will be tortured. and that could be you.

apart from being evil, cruel and ineffective, torture requires sociopaths to suggest it, observe it, and administer it. And once those people are in enough position of power in any society to do that, no one is safe.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: pdq
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:11 PM

skipy...

It depends on whether or not you live in that city or have relatives there.

"...ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally."

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: skipy
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:19 PM

Sadly, the time WILL come when we are in this situation, I did not go either side of the fence on this, I just posed the question. Those that know me well will know where I stand. Time will tell, there are many, I believe will change side.
Skipy

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:30 PM

former senior US security authorities talk about torture

This very interesting article is worth a read, and cites a number of ex-CIA and army intelligence officers.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:35 PM

The "lit fuse" scenario is a scary one, and it really is hard to say how anyone would come down on it in an actual case.

However, to me the issue is whether torture (or "rigorous interrogation") should be a matter of normal policy and procedure. Almost anyone who has ever been in the military would say, "certainly not." But, when the country is led by people whose closest exposure to combat has been John Wayne and Chuck Norris movies, that can be the result. I don't care much for the late Robert Heinlein's approach to political discourse (he made Cheney look liberal), but his idea of limiting the franchise to people with military service sometimes has some (limited) appeal.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:37 PM

the old line is "the exception proves the rule".

Can we write a script where we 'might' do something we ordinarily wouldn't? Sure...everything from jaywalking to stealing bread. That doesn't mean that the exception validates wholesale re-writing OF the rule....which is what these a**holes are trying to do.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:37 PM

You posed the question, but you ignored the answer to it given by freda.

Torture is unreliable - that's why it went out of fashion.

It doesn't save time, it wastes it. It dioesn't save lives, it puts them at grerater risk by diverting attention from rational ways of trying to deal with a crisis. It plays into the game of the enemy.

And after all, it's the easiest thing in the world to set up someone who knows nothing to be captured and tortured. They'll talk all right.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 07:51 PM

One of the problems with the advocacy of torture is that it highlights the lack of training in effective investigation techniques that can corrupt any investigation.

Merle L. Pribbenow, is a 27-year veteran of the CIA's clandestine Directorate of Operations. Writing in Studies in Intelligence, the CIA's in-house journal, he stated:

"If you talk to people who have been tortured, that gives you a pretty good idea not only as to what it does to them, but what it does to the people who do it," he said. "One of my main objections to torture is what it does to the guys who actually inflict the torture. It does bad things. "

He comments "..I have talked to a bunch of people who had been tortured who, when they talked to me, would tell me things they had not told their torturers, and I would ask, 'Why didn't you tell that to the guys who were torturing you?' They said that their torturers got so involved that they didn't even bother to ask questions."

Ultimately, he said "torture becomes an end unto itself."

Here is a report, which shows, in a completely different context (investigation of child abuse) the impact of the use of coercive interview techniques:

how poor investigation techniques can contaminate an interview process

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:00 PM

First of all, skipy, the hypothetical (and possibly, someday, real) situation you present is old stuff, and so is the answer to it, which goes as follows :

I am a terrorist in on a plot to plant multiple bombs around the city. And I get caught.

Okay, now I'm highly dedicated to my cause. And I'm not stupid. I figure that I'm dead meat anyway. Hell, when I got into this in the first place, I figured I might be strapping explosives around my waist, walking into a crowded restaurant somewhere, and blowing myself up. After all, if I die in the cause, I will be transported immediately to Paradise where there are seventy-two beautiful, juicy young virgins waiting eagerly for me, to ply me with milk and honey, and pleasure me for all eternity.

I go through the sham of allowing my interrogators to begin to torture me, waterboarding or whatever. But having thought all these possibilties out well ahead of time, for what I plan to do, I have to create an illusion. I hold on. I resist. I resist as long as I can stand it. When I really can't take it any more, I "crack." "Please," I beg. "Please! Don't hurt me anymore! I'll tell you anything you want to know!" And then I spill my guts. Anything to keep them from torturing me any more.

But I lie through my pearly whites. I send all of my captors' available resources off on wild goose chases, making sure to keep them busy until all the bombs go off. And resigned to my fate—in fact, looking forward to it—I sit in my cell, and when I heard the rumble of exploding bombs off in the distance, I lean back and laugh like a maniac.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:05 PM

exactly, Don!...anyone who know torture might be employed can EASILY plant fake info...or do as you point out.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: gnomad
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:27 PM

"There are nine more primed to go off"...How can we know that? Are we advocating torture on spec?

I couldn't support the idea if we did know. As we cannot know, then I reject it even more strongly.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:37 PM

Many of the afore-written arguments ahve appeared before on Mudcat--not that they shouldn't appear again. But that aside, are the Yanks gonna get the present garbage in Washington OUT of office anytime soon?

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: freda underhill
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 08:39 PM

as Kevin said, "And after all, it's the easiest thing in the world to set up someone who knows nothing to be captured and tortured. They'll talk all right."

And unfortunately the common scenario is that people in a political, religious or ethnic minority will be subject to such treatment by people from the majority in power.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:00 PM

Peace, we hope to make major steps in that direction a week from Tuesday. Being a country of laws (although sometimes that is hard to believe), we have to wait 2 more years to finish the job.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Peace
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:07 PM

I hear that, Art. I am wishing as hard as I can that both the Senate and House get a real shake up, and that the Republicans are beaten at the polls in two years. I still don't rule out a coup if it looks like both Houses will fall out of Republican control. At that point, Bush and the crew would have nothing to lose, because I really think a Democratic Congress might find the cajones to

1) hold some folks responsible for war crimes
2) usurption and misuse of office
3) sedition as it pertains to misuse of Executive power

I think your President and Vice-President are using the US Military to line people's pockets ate the expense of soldiers lives and well-being, and all at taxpayers expense. I will be dead before the real story gets out I guess, but in truth the sick kingdom Prince Hamlet spoke of is alive and well just to the south of my own country. And Ottawa seems to be catching the disease, too.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: GUEST,memyself
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:23 PM

"And unfortunately the common scenario is that people in a political, religious or ethnic minority will be subject to such treatment by people from the majority in power."

Someone with a name like "Mahar Arar". We're not talking "will be"; this stuff is already happening. The new laws simply remove the secrecy and shame - the torturers will be able to come out of the closet and be loud and proud.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 10:35 PM

Whole thing reminds me of:

"Yeah man, I'd never sell out my country! I wouldn't do it, no way man. I would NEVER sell my country out........uh,say...What are they doing with that other guy?..............They got his pants down............What are they heating up that lead for over there?..............Aw, it doesn't matter, I would never sell out, no way man..........uh, what are they putting that funnel in his ass for?.........That's OK, I would never......Hey, they're not going to pour that hot lead in the funnel in his ass are they?..............WOOOWWWEEEEEE!!! THEY DID!!! GEEZIZ MAN...........I'll tell you all the secrets....I'll MAKE UP secrets man.........Just don't give me the hot lead enema.........

Yeah, so that's it ain't it? If you can take the hot lead enema, you can cast the first stone............"



Spoken over forty years ago by Leonard A. Schneider, Stand-Up Philosopher

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 02:49 AM

Hi Spaw
I thought that was a Lenny Bruce act?

The VP all but gave his approval with a wink & a nod to waterboarding by not coming straight out against this. It doesn't matter weither or not he backs it, it is against the Geneva Conventions & no matter what US law supports torture, it's still a crime against humanity & a war crime. We cannot supersede the GC even though we continue to try. The Supreme Court also has stated that this is illegal but this administration is hell bent on doing as they please when they please & will worry about covering their asses later by making criminal acts like these pardonable offences even before the fact & before the act. If we, in this country cannot bring these criminals to justice the all nations who have signed on with World Court or are signers of the GC should uphold these instutions by declaring arrest warrants for those involved & hold them for trial if they ever set foot on their soil. I hope that, that day will come sooner rather than later or we here in the US can gain back our dignity by trying them here at home. Then there can be some healing from the wounds that these people have inflicted on our Nation.   

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: GUEST,Face the truth
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 06:11 AM

I never voted for the Republicans, twice over I never helped to elect Bush, then who the hell did?, do you know these people who voted for this gang of terrorists?, you are sure to encounter them every day. What a brain-dead country, a parcel of automatons led by a fool, please tell them that is what most of Europe think of them.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 06 - 08:50 AM

What difference does it make whether the bloke being tortured is tied to a board or not?

The relevant part of this procedure is having the head kept under the water, the board is just a technical detail. And Cheney's advocacy of "dunking" indicated that that part is fine by him.

"No, of course we don't pull peoples fingernails out with pincers. We use pliers."

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: fumblefingers
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 01:37 AM

we really need to protect those terrorists we capture. They may be human too. They need to be in good condition in order to cut the heads off our people when they nab them.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Grab
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 06:31 AM

Skipy, you're missing the obvious problem in that scenario...

We know there are nine more bombs ready to go off. We've arrested 500 people. One of them, or several of them, or none of them, could have been involved. Are we justified in torturing them all, on the chance that one of them who actually knows something might crack and tell you?

And are we justified in torturing them, given that nearly everyone will tell you anything to get the torture to stop, even if what they're telling you is pure fiction? I have to be honest here and say that if it happened to me and I *was* involved, I'd hold out as long as I could. But if I *wasn't* involved and the answers wouldn't hurt anyone else, I'd tell them anything they wanted to make it stop, because I wouldn't have any reason not to!

And that's the paradox of torture. It's the sledgehammer and nut problem in its purest form - whilst you've got the shell off the nut, the kernel (of truth, if you like) that you've extracted is so badly damaged and mixed with bits of inedible shell that it's of no practical use to anyone.

Your call indeed...

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: mack/misophist
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 08:20 AM

Although I denounce torture with the rest, let me add something that friends of mine who went through the Army's 'Prisoner of War' training school said. They were told that, if captured and tortured, they should hold out as long as possible. The problem is that, in trying to tell a believeable lie, they might accidently hit on the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 06 - 10:11 PM

So if you don't know anything, but are a supporter of the enemy, you will hold out, for fear of accidentally hitting on the truth If you are totally uninvolved, you will talk fairly rapidly, and tell lies without worrying about accidentally hitting the truth. If you are genuinely in the know you will talk fairly rapidly too, and your lies will avoid accidentally telling the truth.

In both the latter cases innocent people will be identified as guilty in the course of the lies. They will then be picked up and interrogated, giving rise to more lies which will lead to more innocent people being picked up...
......................................

An article worth reading here, in an online magazine called Slate - How torture begets even more torture

A taster quote: "In 1968, a soldier in the 1st Cavalry Division was court-martialed for waterboarding a prisoner in Vietnam. In fact, the practice was identified as a crime as early as 1901, when the Army judge advocate general court-martialed Maj. Edwin Glenn of the 5th U.S. Infantry for waterboarding, a technique he did not hesitate to call torture."

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Amos
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:30 PM

You can't trust a tortured brain: Neuroscience discredits coercive interrogation
September 21st, 2009
According to a new review of neuroscientific research, coercive interrogation techniques used during the Bush administration to extract information from terrorist suspects are likely to have been unsuccessful and may have had many unintended negative effects on the suspect's memory and brain functions. A new article, published by Cell Press on September 21st in the journal, Trends in Cognitive Science, reviews scientific evidence demonstrating that repeated and extreme stress and anxiety have a detrimental influence on brain functions related to memory.

Memos released by the US Department of Justice in April of 2009 detailing coercive interrogation techniques suggest that prolonged periods of shock, stress, anxiety, disorientation and lack of control are more effective than standard interrogatory techniques in making subjects reveal truthful information from memory. "This is based on the assumption that subjects will be motivated to reveal veridical information to end interrogation, and that extreme stress, shock and anxiety do not impact memory" says review author, Professor Shane O'Mara from the Institute of Neuroscience at Trinity College in Dublin, Ireland. "However, this model of the impact of extreme stress on memory and the brain is utterly unsupported by scientific evidence."

Psychological studies suggest that during extreme stress and anxiety, the captive will be conditioned to associate speaking with periods of safety. For the captor, when the captive speaks, the objective of gaining information will have been obtained and there will be relief from the unsavory task of administering these conditions of stress. Therefore, it is difficult or impossible to determine during the interrogation whether the captive is revealing truthful information or just talking to escape the torture. Research has also shown that extreme stress has a deleterious effect on the frontal lobe and is associated with the production of false memories.

Neurochemical studies have revealed that the hippocampus and prefrontal cortex, brain regions integral to the process of memory, are rich in receptors for hormones that are activated by stress and sleep deprivation and which have been shown to have deleterious effects on memory. "To briefly summarize a vast, complex literature, prolonged and extreme stress inhibits the biological processes believed to support memory in the brain," says O'Mara. "For example, studies of extreme stress with Special Forces Soldiers have found that recall of previously-learned information was impaired after stress occurred." Waterboarding in particular is an extreme stressor and has the potential to elicit widespread stress-induced changes in the brain.

"Given our current cognitive neurobiological knowledge, it is unlikely that coercive interrogations involving extreme stress will facilitate release of truthful information from long term memory," concludes Professor O'Mara. "On the contrary, these techniques cause severe, repeated and prolonged stress, which compromises brain tissue supporting both memory and decision making."

More information: O'Mara et al.: "Torturing the Brain: On the folk psychology and folk neurobiology motivating 'enhanced and coercive interrogation techniques.'" Trends in Cognitive Science

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:51 PM

I think it makes sense to recognise torture as one of the methods people adopt as a way of avoiding blame when things go wrong.

What I mean is, once you are operating in a context where torture (whatever it may be officially called) is accepted practice, then an officer who fails to adopt it is liable to be blamed for not doing everything they could. If the torture fails to produce any useful information that doesn't really matter, because the bottom line wasn't getting useful information,it was avoiding blame.

It's rather like a school adopting over-extreme safety procedures. The basic aim isn't to preotect teh childten, it's to protect the school and the staff from blame and litigation if something does go wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: sing4peace
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:35 PM

with all dues to Holly Near for her similar question about killing -

why do we torture people
who are torturing people
to prove that torturing people is wrong?

From Dunking stools to waterboards - guilty until proven innocent.

Your sister in Hope,

Joyce Katzberg
who has stood vigil with likeminded others in Memorial Square in Providence, RI every Saturday, rain or shine since May of 2004 (over 5 years) to host an open mike/speakout called "the no time to be silent vigil" to demonstrate solidarity with people around the world who are also speaking out against torture and terrorism and resisting the tyrants of their own time and place through persistant and creative non-violence. Carry it On...

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Janie
Date: 21 Sep 09 - 11:53 PM

Very interesting, Amos. Thanks for sharing that information. Research based finding like this are essential to convincing those that participate in torture, or who justify torture on moral or patriotic grounds (the ends justify the means thinkers) of it's ineffectiveness and unreliability.

In the current and recent conflicts between the West and the Mid-East, when Westerners are arrested or taken hostage and submitted to torture or coersion, we are quick to understand that "confessions" they may make under duress have no validity, and we have no trouble dismissing and/or forgiving what these captives may say in order to survive, physically or psychologically, but do not accept the same is true for "enemies" who are tortured or otherwise coerced.

Subject: RE: BS: For Your Information: Torture.
From: Rog Peek
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 12:40 PM

I know that couldn't happen here,
    so it must have been another country --
    Yes, it must have been another land.
    That couldn't happen in the U.S.A.
    We'd never treat a man that way.

Phil Ochs 1963


Rog