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BS: Britain ready to end discrimination
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Subject: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: beardedbruce Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM Almost, anyway... Govt mulls allowing Catholic monarchs 37 minutes ago LONDON (AFP) - The government is drawing up plans to end a 300-year-old exclusion of Catholics from the line of succession, as well as ending the priority given to male heirs, according to a newspaper report. The Labour government would introduce the necessary legislation after the next election, according to The Guardian, which has long petitioned for a change in the law that critics have condemned as discriminatory. Prime Minister Gordon Brown's office declined to comment, although Secretary of State for Justice Jack Straw said in March that the government was "certainly ready to consider" reviewing the "antiquated" ban on Catholic monarchs. Rules laid out in the Bill of Rights 1688, the Act of Settlement 1700 and the Act of Union 1706 state that the monarch must be a Protestant, and any royal who marries a Catholic is barred from the line of succession. Earlier this year, a Catholic engaged to one of the Queen's grand-children, Peter Phillips, had to be accepted into the Church of England before the couple could marry, or her husband would have lost his claim to the throne. Changes to the rule stating that the crown automatically passes to the first male heir were also planned, The Guardian said, and could see a first-born daughter of Prince William, second in line to the throne, become queen. Former prime minister Tony Blair said in 1999 he had no plans to change the law, mainly because it would require amending several pieces of legislation and would have to be approved by the Commonwealth nations. A parliamentary briefing paper published in August warned that changing the law "could open up extremely complex constitutional issues". There were "problems inherent in trying to disentangle matters of religion and politics, being, as they are, at the heart of core aspects of the British constitution", it said, in reference to the monarch's role as head of the Anglican church ------------------------------------------------------------------- "the monarch must be a Protestant, and any royal who marries a Catholic is barred from the line of succession." I guess Mormons, Jews, Hindus, Moslems and others are still ruled out, though. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Stu Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM Pathetic piece of legislation. Here's to the day they finally get rid of any monarchy of any religious persuasion and have the good sense to declare us a republic, finally free of these overprivileged, parasitic, inbred gits. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,lox Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM If the Monarch is catholic then who is the head of the Church of England? And if the head of the C of E is a Roman Catholic, doesn't that effectively reunite the two faiths? 500 years of religious/political turmoil in England would suddenly have its importance snuffed out in a wisp of embarrassment. As Henry VIII gurgles with evil laughter from his grave. All because he didn't produce any healthy XY sperm - oh and wanted to be allowed to kill off his old wives and replace them with new ones without anyone telling him he was a bad boy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Rapparee Date: 25 Sep 08 - 12:16 PM Find Cromwell, dig him up, and wrap him in copper wire. Replace his tombstone with a big magnet. His spinning the his grave will generate enough electricity to supply London. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Teribus Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:25 PM I don't know why such surprise after all it most certainly is not the first completely idiotic idea that Nu-Labour has come up with, but as they have next to no chance of winning the next election it is all rather academic. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Stu Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:40 PM "Find Cromwell, dig him up, and wrap him in copper wire. Replace his tombstone with a big magnet. His spinning the his grave will generate enough electricity to supply London." . . . and that's better than he deserves too. Come the revolution, that statue's coming down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,the sash Date: 25 Sep 08 - 01:41 PM well the catholics will be happy but the rest of us after all Britian is a Protestant Country and I hope it will remain so, this is the minorty telling the majorirty wahat to do |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Backwoodsman Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM Don't panic Mr. Mainwaring, within the next 50 years it'll all be academic - Britain will have become an Islamic Fundamentalist State and the monarchy will have been done away with in favour of the Mullahs. And I'm only slightly joking. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Richard Bridge Date: 25 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM It would be more sensible to bar the constitutional monarch from professing any religion. Their private religion is no-one's business. Religion has no place in a modern state. Look at the harm it has done in the USA. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Dead Horse Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:24 PM It has done a darn sight less harm in the USA than in almost any other nation on this earth Richard. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Don Firth Date: 25 Sep 08 - 07:39 PM Well, I dunno. . . . Despite the Constitutionally mandated separation of church and state, it has been a major factor in getting a president or two elected recently, and look how that worked out! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Folk Form # 1 Date: 25 Sep 08 - 08:25 PM Come the revolution, the statue of Cromwell is staying exactly where it is... or I shall instigate another revolution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:15 PM "I guess Mormons, Jews, Hindus, Moslems and others are still ruled out, though. They never have been, specifically. Just Catholics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Sep 08 - 09:26 PM "Britain ready to end discrimination..." Why start now? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:10 PM
ummm.....how about putting some archbishop in charge, and taking government out of the equation? -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,Dandy in Aspic Date: 25 Sep 08 - 11:44 PM Britain is not a racist country. It doesn't discriminate againist those who come to it's shores seeking shelter, benefits and an easy ride through life. On the other hand it does discriminate against the very people who built this great country, yes if you are of good old British stock you have to sit with your bloody mouth shut in fear you offend someone and watch your government help Tom, Dick and Harry in the four corners of the world as British people face hardship. Dandy in Aspic |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:08 AM "I guess Mormons, Jews, Hindus, Moslems and others are still ruled out, though" As well as Agnostics and Atheists? "It has done a darn sight less harm in the USA than in almost any other nation on this earth Richard." Call for an Ambulance please, I'm feeli.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Dave Hanson Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:56 AM You couldn't be more wrong Dandy in Aspic, this disgrace of a government is actively discriminating against our most loyal and fiercest allies the Ghurkas, any bloody terrorist or illegal immigrant can sneak in and get a welcome, but not the loyal heroic Ghurkas, this bloody government is fighting tooth and nail to keep them out. eric |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Georgiansilver Date: 26 Sep 08 - 03:11 AM Christmas message year 2050??????.... "Good Mownin peoples. I's yo queen speakin'"... Can't see there being much change to be honest.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Gurney Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:00 AM There are very good historical reasons why catholics are barred from having any chance of becoming the monarch of GB. Whether these reasons are still valid is debatable, but much of Britain's, and Ireland's and Scotland's, historical troubles were certainly supported or even fostered by the Catholic Church, attempting to revive their old (pre Henry VIII) influence in the realm. That's why catholics are specifically barred from the succession, and no other reason. England even executed one catholic king. Less justified is the discrimination against women, since the best monarchs Britain has ever had were/are female. But that's just my opinion. I'm not a historian, I just read a bit, and form my own opinions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: DMcG Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:16 AM While Charles I's wife was Catholic, he wasn't, so I'm not sure which "one catholic king" England executed. He was certainly more tolerant of the Catholic viewpoint than many at the time, but that's not actually the same as being Catholic. I'm not a historian either, but I'd be pretty confident that the historical troubles (and 1666 in particular) were much more about which local bigwigs and claimants had power over what than really Protestant-vs-Catholic. That is, the l.b's wouldn't have many qualms about enlisting/demonising the Catholic Church/Spain/The Netherlands/Uncle Tom Cobley to further their personal ends rather than for some abstract greater good. It's how we behave now, and I very much doubt that we've ever behaved very differently (except for rare cases here and there.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Stu Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:24 AM "ummm.....how about putting some archbishop in charge, and taking government out of the equation?" It's nothing to do with the government. The Monarch is head of state and head of the Church of England and the Prime Minister reports directly to her, on a weekly basis. The Monarch appoints and accepts the resignation of Prime Ministers, and also her permission (at least in theory) is needed to dissolve parliament, such as before a general election. The Monarchy is of course, an anachronism and tremendous waste of taxpayers money (she has more than enough of her own) and should be replaced with an elected President. "Come the revolution, the statue of Cromwell is staying exactly where it is... or I shall instigate another revolution." Well, I thought it might be better in this modern age we don't celebrate the activities of a mass murdering, Irish-hating bigot who even bullied the progressives in his own country into submission. Take it down, melt it down and re-cast it into a giant urinal with his face at the bottom so we can all take a slash on it. Mind you, this is 'Great' Britain and old hatreds seem to linger all over these Isands, so who knows? They'll be wanting to put up statues of Thatcher at Orgreave next. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,ruth Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:32 AM the power struggles which saw France and Spain continually plotting for power over the English throne were a huge factor, as was the somewhat dizzying to-ing and fro-ing of certain 16th and 17th century regimes, back and forth between Catholicism and Protestantism, which thoroughly de-stabilised the government for decades. Banning Catholics was an expedient and effective measure, suited to the times. Of course it's now an outdated piece of legislation, but the Monarchy itself is an equally outdated irrelevance. Judging the past by contemporary standards inevitably leads to silly and wrong-headed conclusions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Gurney Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:42 AM D, 1588, that was the first big push, I think. I do take your point about the local powers-that-be, but local is still better than foreign when it comes to control. And Spanish troops were sent to assist Ireland in it's struggle. Henry's supplantation (is that a word?) of the Pope with himself as head of the church (at that time he still considered himself a catholic) had several reasons, personal, political, and venal. At the time, devout landowners had bequeathed the Catholic Church with about 25% of England, (which he grabbed) but he also wanted a successor and a wife who could give him one. (A successor, I mean) He tried divorce first, but the church wouldn't let him keep going. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: John MacKenzie Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:43 AM Guido Fakes Charles Edward Stewart etc etc. Get rid of the church and keep the monarchy! XG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,ruth again Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:46 AM agree about Cromwell. Melt him down. They're putting up a statue of Maggie in Grantham - they have to stick it on a traffic roundabout, so that people can't deface it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: goatfell Date: 26 Sep 08 - 04:50 AM I'm a protestant however I think that it right for to have a Catholic on the throne and stop this nonsense once and for all, but then I want Britain to be a republic and then we can get rid of the royal family once on for all, mind you it's thier lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Georgiansilver Date: 26 Sep 08 - 08:21 AM >>>>>>They're putting up a statue of Maggie in Grantham - they have to stick it on a traffic roundabout, so that people can't deface it!<<<<<<< How long will it be before a car goes 'out of control' and mangles the statue? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Mrs.Duck Date: 26 Sep 08 - 09:39 AM It's worth the loss of NCB! That's no claims bonus btw! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Teribus Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:09 AM I do not believe for a second that Oliver Cromwell made any distinction between English Rebels, Scottish Rebels or Irish Rebels, he sent them all to the West Indies as slaves if captured. Right up until the Napoleonic Wars the rule was that once a city was beseiged it was given the chance to surrender. If those inside refused that offer they did so knowing full well that the attacking force, who would now be subject to greater risk and far higher casualties, were free once the city had fallen to exact their revenge on the defenders, so Cromwell was hardly a "Mass Murderer". His troops behaved as any others would have done at the time considering it as being perfectly normal, although I note he did stipulate in his orders that only those under arms were to be killed. The Head of State of the United Kingdom is precisely that. The King or Queen serves none apart from the people of the United Kingdom of England, Scotland and Northern Ireland and as such can have no such confessor as the Pope in Rome to answer to. The King or Queen is titular Head of the State's Official Church and that is as it should be, that obviously prevents the monarch from being anything other than a Protestant Christian. This arrangement has held England and Scotland clear of the machinations of troublesome Popes throughout history since Henry VIII broke with Rome and established the Church of England, I see no good reason whatsoever to alter that state of affairs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Stu Date: 26 Sep 08 - 11:11 AM "I do not believe for a second that Oliver Cromwell made any distinction between English Rebels, Scottish Rebels or Irish Rebels, he sent them all to the West Indies as slaves if captured." Her certainly did - his hatred of the Irish is well-documented. He may not have been alone in this during this time but I think you'll find the Irish see it very differently and I agree with them. " His troops behaved as any others would have done at the time considering it as being perfectly normal, although I note he did stipulate in his orders that only those under arms were to be killed." No, they behaved like animals at the end of the siege of Drogheda and killed 80% of those inside, including many innocent people (source), and there was a clear distinction between his treatment of the Irish and the Scots and English. "This arrangement has held England and Scotland clear of the machinations of troublesome Popes throughout history since Henry VIII broke with Rome and established the Church of England, I see no good reason whatsoever to alter that state of affairs." Damn those Catholics eh, Tezza lad? Centuries of persecution and misery to be upheld because one fat old git with an oversize ego was incapable of getting his unfortunate wives up the duff with a boy? Perhaps an end to these centuries of intolerence might be one good reason - after all if ditch the monarchy, establish a republic and elect a head of state we won't have any obligations to any religion anywhere, and that can't be a bad thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,lox Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM The reason why a catholic can't become king or queen is that if they do, the church of england disappears in a puff of logic. C of E is basically Catholicism with the English monarch at its head instead of the pope. This arrangement was set up by henry VIII to legitimize his divorce. So the very existence of a catholic Monarch would render the church of England non existent except as a wing of the catholic church. Part of the reason for the British empires success was its "moral" certitude that God was on its side. Elizabeth the virgin queen led Britain as Gods angel/general on earth. If she willed it then it followed logically that God willed it. What a clever claim to authority. Thanks Dad (Henry) British culture still reserves an element of righteousness based on this. The monarch doesn't have political power anymore, but remains as a reminder that Britain is Great and that God is British. We'll ignore that the tudor line weren't actually legitimate heirs to the throne. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Stu Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:28 PM "We'll ignore that the tudor line weren't actually legitimate heirs to the throne." They were Welsh at least, so they had one saving grace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,lox Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:33 PM Who was Grace and why was one of the Tudors saving her? And why would being Welsh have made this so important? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Big Al Whittle Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:37 PM 'Right up until the Napoleonic Wars the rule was that once a city was beseiged it was given the chance to surrender.' Teribus mate, you don't half talk bollocks. I mean seriously - can you imagine any military commander of those days saying - oh no! what is the protocol in these circumstances? I really must follow the rules of engagement..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Stu Date: 26 Sep 08 - 12:52 PM "Who was Grace and why was one of the Tudors saving her? And why would being Welsh have made this so important?" Grace was saved by a number of Tudors in during a wild storm just off the coast of Pembrokeshire near Manobier Castle (birthplace of Giraldis Cambris who was found in a nest or something) in a boat with many rollocks (t'wern't a coracle like they have on the Tefi Dewi Afon) which they rowed out at no small risk to themselves and when they saved her they all rowed back through the surf and spume and had laverbread and cockles and bacon and a tot of something rum to keep them from getting a chill so that's why being Welsh is important and if you have to ask the question then there's obviously no Welsh blood in you and that would make you like that bloke who lived around the corner from me who hadn't any too. There's luverly for you! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Teribus Date: 26 Sep 08 - 02:50 PM Load of bollocks eh WLD? Take a look at what happened at the following seiges during the Napoleonic War in Spain: Cuidad Rodrigo (7th to 20th January, 1812): On January 8, the Light Division stormed and took the Grand Teson redoubt and began digging positions for the breaching batteries. The Santa Cruz Convent was stormed on January 13 and the San Francisco Convent fell on January 14. The batteries, which opened fire on January 14, included twenty-three 24-lb and four 18-lb siege cannon. In five days, they fired over 9,500 rounds and opened two effective breaches. Wellington ordered an assault for the night of January 19. Major-General Thomas Picton's 3rd Division was ordered to storm the greater breach on the northwest while Robert Craufurd's Light Division was sent against the lesser breach on the north. Diversionary attacks by Denis Pack's Portuguese brigade would probe the defences at the San Pelayo Gate on the east and across the Agueda River on the south. All told, Wellington planned to use 10,700 men in his assault. Launched at 7 pm, the assault was completely successful. There were two cannons embedded in the wall of the greater breach that caused the most casualties in the storming. The 88th Connaught Rangers Regiment took one of the guns while the 45th Nottinghamshire Regiment took the other. Allied losses in the siege were 195 killed and 916 wounded, although amongst the dead were Major-Generals Henry MacKinnon and Robert Craufurd. The victory was somewhat marred when the British rank and file thoroughly sacked the city, despite the efforts of their officers to stop them. Badajoz (March 16-April 6, 1812): An Anglo-Portuguese army under the Earl of Wellington, besieged Badajoz, Spain and forced the surrender of the French garrison. The siege was one of the bloodiest in the Napoleonic Wars and was considered a costly victory by the British, with some 3,000 Allied soldiers killed in a few short hours of intense fighting as the siege drew to an end (2,000 men died in under two hours attempting to carry the main breach a space about 6m x 5m), and as many as 4,000 allied Spanish civilians, including many women and children, massacred by the allied troops after the battle. San Sebastian (8th to 31st August 1813): The British engineers emplaced their breaching batteries by 26 August. By late on 30 August, two breaches were blasted in the walls by 15 heavy cannon firing from the south and 42 from the east. The main breach was made near the southeast corner and a smaller one on the east side. Graham ordered an assault for the following day. Because the attack had to be made as the tide fell, it was scheduled for 11:00 am on 31 August. The 5th Division made the assault from the south on the main breach. The soldiers dashed across the 180 yards from the trenches to the foot of the breach with little loss, but then the French opened a terrific fire. Again and again the men of the 5th Division rushed up the rubble-strewn breach, but they were cut down in swaths. The French had built an inner wall that stopped the redcoats and killed hundreds. Graham committed 750 volunteers from the 1st, 4th and Light Divisions, but they were unable to beat down the French defenders. A Portuguese brigade splashed across the Urumea and attacked the eastern breach, but their drive also stalled. After two hours, the assault was a costly failure. The survivors hugged the ground to avoid the searing fire. Graham and his artillery commander, Alexander Dickson fired on the inner wall, despite risk of killing many British soldiers who lay so close under the barrier. When the British heavy guns first fired over their heads, the survivors of the attack began to panic. But, when the smoke cleared, they noticed that the big guns had wrecked most of the inner wall. With a yell, they charged, reached the top of the breach and spilled into the city. The French resisted in deadly house to house combat until nightfall. Rey then pulled his 1,200 survivors into the castle on Monte Urgull, where he held out until 5 September before asking for terms. He formally surrendered on 8 September. Meanwhile, the British rank and file ran completely amok, pillaging and burning the city even though the population was anti-French. Order was not restored for five days, by which time only a handful of buildings survived. The rest of the city burned to the ground. This tragedy is remembered every year on August 31 with an extensive candlelit ceremony. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,lox Date: 26 Sep 08 - 05:06 PM lol Stig, Ida thought theyda tudor up ... Unless you mean they saved her for later ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Ed T Date: 26 Sep 08 - 06:54 PM Yes, they haven't allowed Roman catholics in this high post, and give preference to males? Well, at least they aren't like the Roman Catholic church and do allow some women (the curennt Queen included) to ascend to the highest levels:) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Sep 08 - 07:38 PM Teribus reminds us why the Union Flag acquired its nickname "the Butcher's Apron"... And I'm not in any way suggesting that there was anything uniquely British about that kind of thing. Sadly, far from it. Massacres of civilians have always been part of war, and more so today than ever, though the techniques used are soetimes more technically sophisticated. ("Shock and Awe"...) And they have always been acts of murder. ...................... There's no particular reason the technical and at most ceremonisal head of the Church of Engkand should have to be a member of that church. There are always ways round these little difficulties. To take a somewhat recherché parallel, the joint heads of state of Andorra, the co-princes, are, technically, the President of France and the Bishop of La Seu d'Urgell in Spain. Neither is Andorran or particularly likely to ever visit Andorra. (Well, the Bishop probably would, it's not very far to go.) And of course the Prime Minister, who in fact, and in law, holds the powers which ostensibly lie with the Queen or King in relation to appointing bishops of the Church of England, can be of any religion or none. Except Catholic, it has been assumed, on dubious grounds. Hence Tony Blair's decision to delay things until he was no longer Prime Minister before becoming Catholic. Though it seems more likely that this was less to do with this daft law than it was to do with fears about destabilising things in Northern Ireland and causing Ian Paisley to explode. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: Ed T Date: 26 Sep 08 - 10:19 PM A Greek and Italian were sitting down one day debating who had the superior culture. The Greek says, "We have the Parthenon" The Italian says, "We have the Coliseum" The Greek says, "We had great Mathematicians" The Italian says, "We had the Roman Empire" and so on and so on and then the Greek says: "We invented sex" The Italian says: "That is true, but it was the Italians who introduced it to women" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Britain ready to end discrimination From: GUEST,Justin Urqhart Date: 27 Sep 08 - 03:33 AM Well said Al. Teribus you got it wrong big time mate (and not for the first time). |
