BS: nader, please tell us brits about him

Subject: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Melodeon
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:11 PM

I keep seeing the name and I assume he is a left wing presidential candidate but the british media ( with the exception of "The Socialist") appears to be ignoring him and as far as they are concerned there are only two candidates.

Please excuse my ignorance but I really am interested..

Viv

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM

he bacame famous many years ago writing about the Chevrolet Corvair...and has had a lot of publicity since as an 'independant' consuner advocate...but like many people, he is not content to stay in one area...his opinions have expanded and now he is lookinf for a MUCH broader forum....

(short answer)

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:17 PM

Ralph Nader has been a pain in the ass for years. A self styled consumer advocate who won recognition for declaring that the Chevrolet Corvair was "Unsafe at any speed". He stands about as much chance as a snowball in hell, and, at best he will draw 12% to 15 % of the votes. Probably just enough drawn away from Gore to put the empty hat in the white house. Of course, Pat Buchannan will draw some votes away from Bush, but, not nearly as many. %

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:22 PM

I have met Ralph Nader on a number of occasions, and am happy to speak about him. He first came to fame for exposing various flaws in American automobiles, during which he was followed and harassed by auto company detectives and thugs. He used his fame and tireless activities to set up groups of "Nader's Raiders" -- young people and young professionals to examine various practices of corporate and government malfeasance. He has been totally incorruptible, which is why he is hated (though some of his recent fundraising has received attention). He lives a very simple life style. He first ran for the Presidency 4 years ago, and for some reason did not take it seriously -- maybe because the Green Party was such a mess. This time he decided to take it seriously, and has been frozen out of the prime time debates (run by the two major parties, etc.).
He is an odd character: very old fashioned, believes in citizens, democracy, free speech, a fine speaker. I heard him once in Chataqua where I was also giving a speech, and he spent the entire speech assaulting the audience, made up of rich liberals. They were completely shocked, and got angrier and angrier at him, but when he ended they gave him a standing ovation just because he was so honest. A great American, I think (I am a Canadian). If he was President, they would kill him on day one.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Melodeon
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:32 PM

Thanks Peter T, he sounds like my kind of politician, but I hope that he does not let in Bush because although many of us over here cannot see a lot of difference between the other two, I for one would be horrified to see another Bush in the White House.

Viv

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:43 PM

He refuses to own a credit card! How unAmerican can you be? But he and Ed Koch are the only "honest" politicians I know of.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:55 PM

Go Nader!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:16 PM

Melodeon, you can learn a bit more about Nader here:

brief history at www.nader.org

He's not really a politician at all, and he's not running to win the presidency. Briefly, he's running to consolidate the Green Party in the US and secure federal campaign funds for the party in the 2004 presidential election.

Just curious: why would you be "horrified to see another Bush in the White House"? I know the stock answer in the US, I'm curious what the British take on this is.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:16 PM

Nader is a humorless and rather paranoid character--and is said to be considerably more wealthy than he allows people to know--he has been reported to control singificant amounts of stock and security through dummy corporations, and is reported to have deliberately kept his campaign spendings below the level that require financial disclosure--

He is said to be something of a cruel task master, and apparently fired a number of employees who tried to unionize his staff.

It has also been said that, when a university tried to make student contributions to his organization voluntary rather than required, he responded with threats of lawsuits on a variety of unrelated but polically correct issues, unless they rescinded the change immediately.

And, though he claims to lead a simple life, he seems to own and reside in a very expensive home in a very exclusive part of Washington.

As to his belief in democracy and citizens, he seems more inclined to believe in rule by the Trial Lawyer's Association--

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:36 PM

Here's the link: Nader's Skeletons, if you either don't believe me, or want to know more.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:40 PM

ah, yes, realchange.org, the Weekly World News of political web sites. Particularly interesting is the "quote" from Charles McCarry, which looks like an outright fabrication.

In the '96 campaign Nader kept financing below the $5000 limit, above which he would have had to open the books. The speculation is that he did so to avoid jeopardizing the tax-exempt status of his various citizen action groups. In any case, it's a moot point in the current campaign, the books are open.

Nader is worth about four million, invests in the stock market (duh!), and is an extremely capable and aggressive litigator. I'm not aware that these are crimes, what am I missing here?

OK, here's a "scandal" they missed. Nader is heavily invested in Cisco, which holds a position in the server market similar to that held by Microsoft in the desktop OS market. I'm sure we can make something ominous of that...

PIRG funding through student fees at participating universities IS voluntary, the issue has been whether a student enrolling in a participating school should submit the form to opt out (the current system), or to opt in. Make of that what you will, but the story as reported is deceptive.

enh -- if anyone's read this far, I can personally refute the idea that Nader is humorless: he's made me laugh. If your taste runs to big shoes and seltzer bottles, Ralph is not your man for comedy, true.

To be fair (oh, why bother) the site doles out its hysteria and incompetence in somewhat equal portions for all the candidates. I'm not sure I'd call that an endorsement, though. If I may be allowed to speak plainly, what a load of horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 12:25 AM

well, well. I thought I detected a familiar stench. Here is the real source of the hatchet job on Nader at realchange.org.

Alan Caruba at etherzone.com

Now who, you may ask, is Alan Caruba? Well, among his many shining accomplishments, he's a sleazy PR flack for the chemical industry. Alan is a very busy boy, "debunking" such dangerous whacko myths as ozone depletion, global warming, dioxin toxicity, you name it. Here's a prime sample of his work:

Alan at the top of his game

Gosh, it looks like the realchange sleaze who did the cut-and-paste forgot to credit Caruba -- well, I'm sure it's an honest mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: thosp
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 01:06 AM

thank you Luther -- My vote is for Nader ( DougR i know you'r smiling )

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:09 AM

All of the above is true. He has been the greatest advocate of truth in advertising we have ever seen. Also, he is rude. I think a lot of people (such as myself) are deliberately NOT voting for him as President, because we would like him to keep doing the job he has done so well, as Number One Consumer Advocate. == Johnny

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 01:17 PM

Ah, yes, paint everyone who speaks against Ralph is a liar and vicious--let people check out the site, and the references, since all of the the info comes from actually published, sources themselves Luther--

It is no crime to be a capable and agressive litigator, and it isn't necessarily a crime to invest and make money, but it certainly is hypocritical to publically claim to live a simple, austere, life of self denial and voluntary poverty, while privately living in luxury and building up a considerable fortune--

As to the PIRG funds, they were automatically charged to students, unless, if they had the time (and realized that they had been charged for the "contribution" amongst the myriad of college fees, tuitions, and other charges) obtain and file documents that would exempt them from the fee.

Ralph didn't doesn't like it when the banks tack on hidden service fees for the atm machines, and he doesn't like it when Comumbia Record House sends you a CD unless you fill out a form asking them not to--why should we accept it when Ralph does the same thing?

I can tell you from personal experience that the PIRG fundraising operation uses the same, unscrupulous door to door techniques that fly by nite jewelry, magazine, kitchen ware, and home cleaning product people use.

They incorporate Fagan-like groups of underage recruits, who often taken by the carload to remote cities and even across state lines, where they are routinely forced to work up to 12 hours a day, often in extreme heat (summer being the time that kids are out of school), and without even the guarantee of the minimum wage.

The kids are only given a small commission on what they collect, and it is not unusual, especially for the new recruits,to return from a twelve hour work day in 90 degree heat with less than twenty dollars.

As you can see above, when someone speaks anything less than praise for Nader, their is someone in their face, immediately. He has a lot of powerful friends, as well as an army of zealots who are always willing to do whatever he wants--

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: paddymac
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:04 PM

I guess I would characterize Nader as a professional contrarian, and a damned good one at that. I've not looked into his reasons for running, but he and any one else willing to think, plainly knows he has no chance of winning. Personally, I think he has and does make a worthwhile contribution to the body politic, whether I agree with him or not on any particular issue. When you look at voter registration dat from most anywhere in the US, the fact that is evident, and surprising to many, is that we seem to be moving slowly but steadily away from the classic two-party system. Here in FL, registered "Independants", the largest single grouping other than Ds and Rs, typically vote Republican, and there are Democrat strongholds that consistently vote Republican in national elections. That is thought to be a case of the local party operation being very strong, by tradition and organization, but its members feeling a greater kinship with the "other" party. The bottom line, I think, is that the various "others" have reached (or nearly so) a sufficient mass that they can no longer be safely ignored. So, who's going to win in November? Hmmm! Think I'll take by betting money and buy a pint instead.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:15 PM

From The Skeletons Link:

According to his former editor David Sanford, Nader is a hypochondriac who refuses dinner invitations from anyone with pets, because he thinks cats cause leukemia, and simply hates dogs.

Well, that's it. He loses my vote!

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:33 PM

I read the above web site and I had to laugh. The article makes the scandalous allegation that Nader lives in a "$100,000 home in a posh neighborhood of Washington, D.C." A $100,000 home in Washington, D.C. can't be very posh. $100,000 would buy you a fairly modest 2 or 3 bedroom older home in a middle-class neighborhood in St. Paul MN - the kind of place a couple of teachers might live in, and teachers are not highly paid. And I'm fairly certain real estate prices are higher in Washington. He must be frugal indeed if he's a millionaire or better.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Scotsbard
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:39 PM

The translucent altruism deliberately cultivated by Nader and his organization, including his presidential campaign, for some reason upsets my intuition in the same way that the Osmond's saccharine schmaltz did many years ago. Something just doesn't ring true, but I find it difficult to put my finger on it.

He doesn't exactly tilt at windmills, because many of the consumer and environmental issues raised are significant, but his whole organization's analyses of cause and effect are often flawed. For example, the "problem" with Corvairs which gained him national intention was not truly inherent in the vehicle's design, but in the overinflation of front tires due to stupidity or ignorance. The anti-establishment bias promulgated by Nader and other groups unfortunately focusses on large monolithic targets instead of root causes that are distributed throughout the population. Just to give an example, is it industry's fault for building gas-guzzling SUV's or the consumer's fault for demanding them?

(For some reason, I keep getting the image of a bunch of ex-hippies tooling down the road while planning to protest a polluting steel mill by buying Japanese cars. Of course now they've all got haircuts and brokerage accounts and the flower painted VW Micro-bus is now a Chevy Suburban, but it still trails blue smoke like a stunt plane.)

Yeah, Nader and his cronies have some valid concerns, but something about their approach to resolving complex issues always seems overly simplified, and usually with a consolidated anti-authority bias that borders on being an inverted inferiority complex. Sort of the consumer version of a loose canon: only useful as long as its actually pointed somewhere near an appropriate target.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 03:00 PM

Wow, $100,000? Just payed $80,000 for a friggin' shack in the country. I'm selling it today and catching the bus to D.C. :D

Also, like Luther said, Nader isn't running to win, but to raise the status of the Green Party. I don't mind if Bush wins; that's only a short-term setback. I urge anyone who would like to vote for Nader, but is afraid of putting a Republican in the White House, to look beyond the next four years when you decide. Otherwise, in four years, you'll be force-fed the same two major party drones again, and again four years after that...

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:32 PM

$100,000 in 1972. The year when the average american house cost about $28,000.One suspects that the value today would be well into the six figures--

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM

Wow, M.Ted, and it's on a poorly designed website... All that info supplied by disgruntled former employees and Nader foes MUST be true!

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST,emily b
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 04:50 PM

Thread creep alert! To American Voters: No matter who is in the White House for the next 4 years, they may have much power to decide the direction of the Supreme Court in that time period. Several Justices are nearing retirement and the new President will get to appoint their replacements. Roe vs. Wade (legalizing abortion) is potentially in jeopardy as I'm sure are several other more liberal decisions made in the last 20-30 years. This is the most important aspect of this race, IMO, and not many people are talking about it.

I too dislike the 2 party system here and have often voted for the 3rd party candidate. I always felt I was sending a message. This year's race is too close for me to feel as though I can afford to throw my vote away. Just think about the further ramifications of your vote. That's all I can ask.

And may the American public win come November.

Emily B

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:26 PM

M.Ted: Where'd you get 1972? The article was written in July 2000 and refers to the present time. Is that your idea of a joke?

Anyway, $100,000 is six figures, if anybody's counting.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM

I love the part about canvassers being routinely forced by presumably Bill Sykes and his dog into cars and taken across state lines to remote cities (far from civilisation) where they are presumably seduced by white slave traders. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:26 PM

thosp: Hee heee heee!

Emily: Not so out here in Arizona. That's all I have heard people (women in particular) talk about in relation to the election.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: kendall
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 07:27 PM

Emily, you just quoted me almost word for word!

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:48 PM

I was in college in the late 70's, and went back for grad school in the mid 80's. In both cases (and two widely seperate states, Colorado and Massachusetts) the PIRG donation was clearly marked among the fees on my tuition papers, and the do pay/don't pay options labeled in big friendly letters.

And while I never went out stumping for PIRG donations, I have a friend who did, and who didn't think of it as a paying job. It was volunteer work, plain and simple, and the little money that she was given was to cover her lunch.

Sounds a little different from the previous version, neh?

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:59 PM

yep, kendall & emily...that's the long & short of it...if Bush gets in, this discussion will be VERY different in a few years..(if we are having it at all)...once the supreme court is totally conservative and most of the institutions which work FOR the little guy are crippled, it will be interesting listening to those who bad-mouthed Gore back-peddle...

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:40 AM

Oh, COME ON, Bill... 'if we're having it at all'?!?! As much as I despise Bush, he's not the antichrist (yes he is) and the country isn't going to implode during his inauguration. We've survived Republican presidents before, and can do it again. Blehhhh... :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: DougR
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:04 AM

Well, Lepus Rex, I'm not so sure. I suspect the world might come to an end the day after the inaguration! I'm buying property in the hills of Arizona and stocking up on spam and a variety of canned good. For good measure I'm brushing up on my survival techniques, just in case.

DougR

P. S. I'd encourage votes for Nader just so I don't have to endure the hardships of the wilderness, however. :>)

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:23 AM

Jim,

I read the material in the website "Some investigation showed that Nader's brother purchased the house -- worth $100,000 even back in 1972 -- though he was an underemployed educational "consultant" And further:

"When the Washington Post's then-society columnist Maxine Cheshire asked Nader about the reports, he knew every detail of the house's financing and couldn't resist rhapsodizing about what a great tax break buying a house was. "He talks about that real estate investment the way some men talk about sex. He's so excited about the whole idea of tax write-offs and all that. I mean, did I realize that that's the greatest investment you can make, the biggest tax advantage, bla bla bla bla bla bla."

I am not a conservative, or even a Republican--my politics are probably somewhere between socialist and anarchist--however, I am not a Naderist--whatever noble ideas he may hold or put forward--He often seems only to be a champion to people whose opressor happens to be a corporation with deep pockets and a high profile--

There are a lot of other trial lawyers out there who are doing the same things that he does, but they don't feel the need to generate huge amounts of PR telling how noble they are.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:27 AM

Having been employed at Consumers Unmion when Nader attempted a takeover (along with Ditlow and some other cronies) I can attest that the man was (and is) dedicated, unscrupulous, unselfish, poorly informed, anti-business and (IMO) somewhat unbalanced.

He performed a wonderful public service back in the mid-sixties in forcing manufacturers to be legally responsible for their goofs, and has done little of any value since. He has the personality for leading crusades, but little concept of what to do when the crusade is underway; he seems to have the idea that the government should rescue the individual from all dangers, including those the individual would prefer to encounter. He's a strong advocate of litigation (tort deform?). He'd probably make a better President than Rush Limbaugh, but not by much.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:29 AM

M.Ted: Sorry, I misunderstood. I was referring to the article "Who's the real Ralph Nader?" (for which GUEST,Luther provided the link under the name "Alan Caruba at etherzone.com") where it says ". . . other sources say he lives in a $100,000 home . . ." Obviously you were referring to a different article, "Nader's skeletons" which I only just now noticed. Still, if his house was worth $100,000 in 1972 it's probably worth about $425,000 today, assuming Washington has had the same inflation rate as St. Paul. Still, I don't think that's out of line. I wonder what Bush's and Gore's houses are worth? As to the confusion about where Nader REALLY lives, it wouldn't surprise me if he owns both an efficiency apartment in Washington (you Brits would call that a bed-sit) and a house in either Maryland or Virginia. I think a lot of Washington bigwigs do that, because of the difficulty of commuting.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:52 AM

Housing has gone up a staggering amount here in the DC area. even in the last couple years. We bought this house last year, and the selling prices in our neighborhood this year are out of our range. I am almost tempted to call a realtor friend, who can access the recent sales in his neighborhood to find out what the area is worth(in the District, housing is much more expensive than in the suburbs) but I there are some fairly modest looking places for sale in the $1.5-2 million range--(there are condos that run to $10 million!)--

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:57 PM

Ah, but the last few Republican presidents we've survived have had Congresses controlled by the Democrats. I firmly believe that a split ticket (one party in the White House and the other in Congress) gives us the least grief, but my oh my do I prefer the Democrats in Congress.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: tradsteve
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:08 PM

I won't vote for him, simply because I drive a 75 Pinto.

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:10 PM

Bill Sykes and his dog, I love it!! thank you, Peter T ;) I'm still stuck on the bit about how that crafty devil Nader tried to hide his connection to this $100,000 house, by "rhapsodizing" to the Washington Post society columnist about it "the way some men talk about sex".

y'know, I think I was a bit hasty earlier -- we really could use some big shoes and a seltzer bottle right about now...

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:30 AM

M. Ted: What do you suppose Watergate condos are selling for these days? I had an apartment up the street on Virgina when I lived in the District.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:47 AM

I dunno' know Doug.......I've heard the security there is pretty bad. I guess they've had some break-ins or something.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: DougR
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 03:06 PM

That was a long time ago, Spaw. I suspect the price of condos has increased considerably since the early 70s. And if they haven't improved security by now, well ... DougR

Subject: RE: BS: nader, please tell us brits about him
From: M.Ted
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:03 PM

I am calling my realtor friend tomorrow--there are important questions here that must be answered!! Don't forget that Monica Lewinsky lived in the Watergate--and Bob and Libby Dole--