BS: I'm becoming more conservative

Subject: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Donuel
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:04 PM

My stance on gun control and death penalty have changed. These are bench marks of a consevative ideology although I would not call myself a conservative.

As right wing minds are opening up, so are liberal minds. We might soon be able to talk instead of shout across the middle.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:16 PM

That'd be good, Donuel. Slogans make lousy communications and there are too many on both sides.

And here I thought this would be Bobert coming out of the closet..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:23 PM

The bench mark of a conservatiuve ideology is being suspicious of cahnge and resistant to it unless it can be porioved necessary.

In a decent society that would mean that being liberal and being conservative would mean the same thing.   

In the States it would seem pretty obvious that any genuine conservative would be passionately defending the remnants of the New Deal, now that it is an Old Deal and under attack from Right-Wing Ideologues with a radical agenda, who clearly have no respect for the traditional values it represents.

Issues like gun control and the death penalty are not ones which properly belong in the party political sphere at all.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: MaineDog
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:33 PM

I've heard it said that a young person who is not liberal has no heart, while a mature person who is not conservative has no head.
MD

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 09:48 PM

I ain't in the closet...

On the death penalty: No, no a thousand times no!!!

Gun control: Outlaw handguns 'cause they are only desined to kill people...

What else?

Okay, that oughtta cover it fir now...

No, it doesn't!!!! Gol dang it!!!!

Hey, what's with these danged deficits???? Hey, ain't his strappin' our kids and their kids with payin' fir *our* party???... Ain't nuthin' "liberal" about being against spendiong our kids money...

And how about attackin' folks because we think that one day they might, ahhhh, think about, ahhhh.... Ain't nuthin' "Conservative" about that either... Seems purdy friggin' radical to me... So put me in the conservative column on that one, too...

And, hey, look at the word "conservative"... What is the root of the word? Give up?.... Ahhhhh, like "conserve"!!!! Gol dangit... Now look around you as the so called *****conservative***** "Energy Plan is is playin' out!?!?!?!?... Anyone that calls millions of gas guzzlin' SUV's tryin' to run one another off the roads ain't like, ahhhh, "conserve" ative.... It's friggin' looney...

So, Donuel, if you want to slip off into the abyiss, then have at... But leave this poor hillbilly alone... I'm perfectly happy with my current set of values, thank you...

But have you a nice trip and don't firget to say "Hey" to DougR when you get there...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Ironmule
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 10:17 PM

Over on the Woodenboat Builder's forum where I mostly hang out, I'm tagged as a conservative; but I'm opposed to the death penalty until they quit discovering innocent people who've spent decades in prison for crimes DNA proves they didn't commit. It seems highly likely that some have been executed because the adversarial nature of the system, worked against some poor defendant.

When the innocent always get off, and the guilty always get convicted, then I'll become a pro-death penalty person again.

On guns,,,,I'm an NRA certified safety instructor, and long time shooter of flintlock muzzleloaders. I guess that makes me an arch conservative,,,,,,,or is it just a stick in the mud "Old Timer" VBG

Jeff Smith

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: mack/misophist
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 10:54 PM

Liberal Republicans and Conservative Democrats can be very similar. Once upon a time there was a complete spread in each party. Not any more.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 11:09 PM

Hey, Donuel -- wanna buy a .357? Knocks 'em down with one shot. Or a .375 Mag -- like they use to take out Brown Bears up in Alaska?

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with changing your mind, even a little bit. Some folks say that's called "maturing."

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Bobert
Date: 10 Jul 05 - 11:19 PM

Handguns, Rap, in some parts of the country ay be maturin' but in other parts ia a major problem....

Yeah, I know that you is big into guns but come to the D.C. area where every night someone dies from being shot be a ****handgun**** and maybe you getta a differnt perspective on just how meaningless they are as "sport's weapons" on the east coast, unless of course, one considers killin' ones neighbors as a sport...

No to handguns on the east coast...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 12:48 AM

Here are a semantic linkings of historical events that are seemingly unrelated---just a few extrapolated observations. --- You say: "Nothing wrong with changing your mind!"

I agree. Personally, I feel that is one sign I look for when determining if an individual is an intelligent person.

It's exactly what Bill Clinton did when the facts convinced him it was the way to go.

And that's when Bush and the conservatives of the Republicult Party labeled him Wishy Washy -- and assassinated the man as surely as if he was an Iraqi victim of a suicide bomber. Kind of a vigilante act of capital punishment you might say!? Just a political drive-by shooting--with a more lethal firearm---.

Aye, war, and killing the seemingly guilty ones, is just another scrum in that great game---the battle for our hearts and minds.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Kaleea
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:17 AM

That new position near the middle--it truly radical! In fact, being somewhat liberservative in the middle these days causes one to constantly look over one's shoulder. OK, I admit it--I'm one of those radical middle people! Please, don't shoot me! I don't have a gun to shoot you back.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:50 AM

Tell me more about the gun that shoots bears - we haven't got them in England yet.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:59 AM

What, bears?

Cos we sure as hell have the guns.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:26 AM

I have become a bit more conservative as I've become older, developing a greater respect for diplomacy and liaison as effective tools for negotiated change. I would like to see a government where both conservative and liberal agreed on fundamental issues, and agreed to have a "no go zone" - issues such as race, crime, health, education .. Negotiatiated agreements over such issues would stop the fear and bigotry-based electioneering which some politicians pursue very successfully. It would mean an agreement between all parties for certain social standards to be met.

In Australia we have a former very conservative Prime Minister working on race, refugee and human rights issues, while the current conservative government derides him. We also have supposedly "left" politicians who are far to the right on race issues. Gun control is not such a big issue here - we have no concept of the right to bear arms, its only criminals or farmers who are keen on having guns. The death penalty was abolished years ago.

In Australia those who hold respect for human rights issues are continually vilified as crackpots and dreamers. The media have become such a tool for manipulation of ideas that people need to be taught critical thinking at school. But unfortunately they're not, and politicians have mastered the art of convincing the masses to vote against their own self-interest..

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM

As a constitutionalist I realize guns are permitted to a well regulated militia. The problem is that privately owned guns are not regulated as well as automobiles. Heck even a purchase of Pampers has a database that exceeds that of guns.

I suggest that a mandatory minimum of 7 years to anyone whose gun ends up in the hands of a person who wounds or kills.

As for the death penalty, the advent of DNA technology can reduce many errors. Nature like it or not makes mistakes too. People who rape children should be executed.








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Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:31 AM

DNA technology is a great advance - but it is still open to being manipulated. an item of a person's clothing, a piece of hair etc can still be planted at the scene of a crime.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:32 AM

you're not really entitled to call yourself conservative until you have strange sexual habits that you keep quiet about whilst blethering on about family values and then get discovered in humiliating circumstances.....we may not have the guns that shoot bears but we know about conservatives in England.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:39 AM

When Tony Blair was going on about "the forces of conservatism" in a big Labour party conference speech, it became clear he was primarily attacking people who believed that the Labour Party should stick to its socialist objectives.

On other words, who were opposed to change which they saw as harmful and unnecessary, and therefore were in that context quite correctly to be termed "conservative".

It's better to avoid using terms such as "conservative", "liberal", "radical" and so forth, as if they had an absolute meaning, as a way iof getting some kind of knee jerk reaction, pro or anti.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:55 AM

Good point, wld, we currently have a conservative Minister for Foreign Affairs who has a predeliction for fishnet stickings and stilettos. And our most conservative radio shock jock has been caught in a very compromising position in a public toilet with a rather young looking man - conservative to the hilt, both of them!

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:30 AM

I don't buy into this semantic arguement that always gets brought up here -- that because there is a disconnect between the original dictionary words "liberal" and "conservative", then the common, contemporary usage of the words are illegitimate. Words evolve. It's not always a good thing that words evolve -- sometimes they evolve at the cost of clear communication. Still, they do evolve -- and making too much of the old meaning "conservative" and "liberal", while in some contexts may be interesting, usually it's just a red herring.

We're all quite aware that the philosophical differences between the two are real, even if disconnected from the original reasons for the name "conservative" and "liberal".

The bigger gap (bigger that the gap between dictionary definition and actual philosophy) is between the philosophical underpinnings of "conservative" and "liberal" and the political manifestations they take, adn the compromises one must (or thinks they must) make in order to come as close as they can to politically (by their vote) expressing their philosophys.

Because of the disconnect, liberals voted for Clinton, though he was not, in 1992, running as a liberal. He was what liberals thought was their only choice. Likewise, most conservatives (myself excluded) voted for Bush.

Those choices don't mean that "liberal" and "conservative" are meaningless. They mean that western politics aren't purely one or the other.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:32 AM

-phies (becoming increasingly incapable of proof reading)

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 01:52 PM

Word evolve, but they don't evolve in the same way in different places.

"Republican" carries a very different meaning in South Carolina and South Armagh. "Liberal" carries a very different meaning in the politics of the United States and Australia. "Conservative" doesn't mean quite the same thing in Manhattan and Moscow.

And the more traditional meanings still prediominate outside the field of party politics. At least, that is my conservative estimate.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

JtS considers himself a "conservative" and he considers GW Bush a radical, while many people in the US who consider themselves "conservative" tend to consider JtS a "liberal". My own opinion is that JtS is right and the others are wrong. But it just goes to show that there are too many popular usages for these words in the world these days for any of them to have any real meaning when used in discussions like this one.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM

You are not becoming more conservative, you are just finally growing up.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM

OK I changed my mind about the use of the words liberal and conservative as well.

I still would probably agree with Bobert on 98 out of 100 issues.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:17 PM

With any luck, Donuel, we may yet see a spring marriage between you and DougR.

I think it's a bit silly to characterize people as liberal or conservative. Most are liberal about one thing, and conservative about the next.

Isn't part of growing up learning to resist the tendency to make snide remarks at others' expence?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:35 PM

I'm not sure it's silly to acknowledge that people tend toward one philosophical POV or the other. If it's the name "conservative" or "liberal" that bothers you, I can assure you that if those words disappeared tomorrow, we'd have two new words tomorrow to describe what are obvious differences.

Just because one differs in a point or two...

1. they're still likely (as donuel just associated himself 98% with bobert) to associate more strongly with one side or the other because...

2. the reasons, the philosophical underpinnings of why one leans one way or the other, will still be there no matter what you call the rose. This isn't a cart-pushing-the-horse exercise. We don't choose to be conservative or liberal because we like the name -- the name merely points out that there are two BASIC ideas driving modern politics.

or not.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 02:46 PM

Except that there aren't just two basic ideas pushing modern politics. Especially when you take into consideration politics in the larger, global sense. The labels are just convenient ways for people to pidgeon-hole each other so they can avoid engaging in any real, meaningful discussion, or to come up with any new solutions to problems. Labels are for lazy thinkers.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:07 PM

Exactly my point, Carol. You put it in a nutshell.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:25 PM

I'm just curious as to what brought about the change of mind on those two issues, Donuel?




Hubby

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:29 PM

According to my father-in-law, in Newfoundland the difference between liberals and conservatives is that "liberals" voted for Confederation (Newfoundland becoming part of Canada), and "conservatives" voted against it. That's pretty much it.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 03:44 PM

Interesting thread. I'm liberal on some issues, conservative on some and radical on some. Don't get me going on abuse of any sort...kinda radical there....women, kids, animals.....etc....

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:09 PM

Conservative? Hell no - but many think I am.

o I strongly support G W Bush
o I support abortions rights, as they are
o I strongly support NRA positions
o I hate the entitlement programs
o I hate the social engineering programs
o I strongly support frredom of religion
o I hate PC mentality, including anti-christain bigotry (I'mnot Christian)
o I strongly support gay rights - but they have 'em already. Gay marriage? It's a legislative issue NOT a court issue - but would vote FOR it.
o I strongly support the war on terror as it has been prosected so far.
o Medical pot is a crock of shit, but a state issue. Let the people decide.
A
m I missing any major issue?

+ I'm a very strong believer in personal responsibility
+ I'm a strong believer in free enterprise, capitlaism and compoetition.
+ Charity is a personal responsibility NOT a governmental function
+ I'm a libertarian who doesn't smoke dope. so I vote Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:13 PM

prosected?? now there's a new word!!

Maybe I meant prosecuted.


oh - and capitalism

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:23 PM

Media news entertainment stations are always on the look out for stories that can be spun indefinetly: child in a well, missing coed in Aruba, MJ, OJ, OK. But when children are raped and murdered by sex offenders 2 days fresh out of jail the stories don't go national. Its over and done with. That is the case close to home.

The death penalty for child rapists* Abuse of the death penalty will never be fully resolved nor will serial rapist murders, but a good start is to send the priests, politicians and working class offenders to death row for their crimes.

Blanket gun control is no control at all. With more control over being able to trace each gun manufactured and sold, stiff laws would enforce respondsible security to keep guns out of the reach of unsupervised children. Most guns are still untraceable although spent ammunition can always be matched if the weapon is in hand.


* not including statutory rape charges between two teens.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 04:33 PM

"compoetition"

That one's my favorite.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:04 PM

...priests, politicians, and working class offenders...

Not the wealthy and influential, Donuel? Just the working class?

Personally, I'm opposed to the death penalty for child rapists. When convicted I think that they ought to be taken out to certain wilderness areas, stripped, kneecapped, and left to crawl back home -- say, fifty miles or so. Through cougar country.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM

Lazy? Maybe, LH, but if so, then this forum is the ultimate hammock.

Folks here revel in their individual takes on how they like their liberalism flavored, but they have NO problem pigeon-holing any conservative.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: MarkS
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:16 PM

Some time ago Ed Koch, former mayor of New York and a democrat, responded to a complaint that he was not really libral by describing himself in a new way, "A liberal with sanity."
He said that ment he was in favor of any program which would actually solve a problem, rather than stick to a position which is not working only because it made you feel good to hold that position.
Not a mentality which would win a popularity contest with either fringe of either party, but just might lead to responsible governance and improvement of social problems!
A point of view which would benefit both liberals and conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

Folks here revel in their individual takes on how they like their liberalism flavored, but they have NO problem pigeon-holing any conservative.

This is true. And the "conservatives" do likewise. Kind of gets in the way of reasonable discussion, doesn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:24 PM

Sure does.

Subject: RE: BS: I'm becoming more conservative
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 06:26 PM

There is a difference of temperament between those whose focus is on resisting the changes which they see as undesirable, and those whose focus is on on achieving the changes they see as desirable.

I think that as we get older most of us tend to do more of the former.

However unless we think the world is perfect, or totally screwed up, we're always going to be a mixture of teh two.

But I still think it's strange to observe a political system where pretty well all the heat seems to be about issues which just aren't about politics at all, they are about cultural preferances. Lilliputian The Bigenders versus the Littlenders of Lilliput, really... Religious wars.