BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good

Subject: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 03:30 PM

Reading a posting of Poppa Gator's where he mentioned how much Mudcat had meant to him when he found out that he had cancer, and how helpful it was to be anonymous, it made me think about a time in my life when I needed to be anonymous. Let me explain.

Many years ago, I was buried under the rubble of my marriage which was collapsing on my head, the pressure of trying to be a good Father to my sons while clinging to the last vestiges of trying to be a loving husband and the Executive Director of a large Museum. I had moved out of my home and taken a run down room to sleep in and had to take a second job as a night watchman at a hotel. When I took the job, and the people I worked with asked me my name, I said "Just Jerry will do." It had been so many years since I'd been "just Jerry," that I'd almost forgotten who I was. I was Jerry, a husband, Jerry a Father and Jerry the Executive Director. Those were all a part of who I was, but I no longer knew who "Just Jerry" was. So, I didn't discuss my life, or my job, or my dire straits. I just related to people as "Jerry." That was about as anonymous as I could get. (It didn't occur to me to call myself Guest.)

I think that one of the beauties of Mudcat that Poppa Gator has touched upon is that we can check our reputations at the door when we join Mudcat. We can pick a moniker, and in here at least, that's who we are. And, there's a lot to be said for that.

There was another point in my life when I spent three months on an iceberg (by choice) doing research. There were 14 of us there, and we were from all over the world, and total strangers. It was like starting over for me. I left all of my baggage behind me and could be taken for who I am, with no history to weigh me down. Again, it was much like it can be in here. I enjoy Rapaire, brucie, Joe Offer, Bobert, Khandu, Sorcha and so many friends I've made in here, and I know them for who they are now, not in the context of a lifetime of successes and failures. We've all had a generous mix of the two. The fact that Joe Offer uses his real name, as I do and Art Thieme does, and Rapaire and Khandu don't isn't the real distinction. In a way, we're all anonymous to some extent in here, even if we use our real name.

Yesterday, I met DWDitty for the first time. He lives a twenty minute drive from me, so it was long overdue. I didn't stop to think if he was DWDitty or Rich Gallagher. I just immediately enjoyed him as a person.

There's a lot of complaining on here about people posting as Guests, but there are times when even that anonymity may be good for the person. Sometimes, we just need to be taken for who we are, without a name or a label.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM

I think you make a powerful good point, Jerry.

I have never had a complaint about not knowing a real name for anyone. My only problem is when the shielding of anonymity is used to communicate hateful or harmful ideas. To me, that is a double offense.

But I like knowing that this forum will provide you with the freedom to be anonymous when that is what you need.

Thank you for your story about THe Night Watchman. It has power in it.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:24 PM

Jerry

You and others know me by "Martin Gibson." I want you to know that if I ever had the chance, I would consider you to be one of the few here that I would stick out my hand to and say, "Hi Jerry. I'm ______ ________ and I'm glad to meet you.

regular posters who post as guests though tend to do so to not reveal how pathetic they can be when not in their regular poster attire.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:32 PM

Everybody is as anonymous as we wish to be, and there are all kinds of perfectly good reasons for using a made-up name here, in place of our day-to-day name, and Jerry touched on some of them.

And if we ever need to be more anonymnous than we normally are, it's easy to log-in as a GUEST; and good manners to add a label of some sort on that GUEST, to avoid getting confused with other people. Complaints about people who don't do that have never been about anonymity, because most of us are anomymous anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:36 PM

Mrrzy IS my real name. I've used it since I was a child. It may not be the name on my passport but that isn't the name I use. However, in assuming that nobody at the mudcat actually knew me first (turned out not to be the case) I figured it was as good as being anonymous... but when I needed anonymity I posted as Guest, Temporarily Anonymous, as it was germane to the discussion I was starting that it be known I *was* a mudcatter, just not WHICH one I was right then.
(Oops, I just gave it away, didn't I!)

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:43 PM

I know who you are, Mrrzy... they did a song about you: Mrrzy Doats. And your brother Dozey.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:52 PM

What I don't understand, is why is there the "need" to log out and become a Guest to say something.

Most situations seem to point to the fact that someone just doesn't have the balls to say what they want to without hiding behind something.

In other words, as Martin Gibson, I can tell you that you are wonderful or complete crap. If you have to hide to say that you are complete crap to someone, really, you are a phony.

The adversaries here that I have the most repsect for are the ones with at least screen names who don't have to hide and logout to say what's on their mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Janie
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:08 PM

Remember this?

I'm nobody! Who are you?
Are you nobody too?
Then there's a pair of us--don't tell
They'd banish us, you know.

How dreary to be somebody!
How public like a frog
To tell your name the live long day
To an admiring bog.

                   Emily Dickenson

ribbit, ribbit. splash.

Janie

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Janie
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:12 PM

Oops. Make that DICKINSON. J.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:23 PM

Hey, now; don't go quoting me without permission!
Ribbit, Ribbit... And don't go knockin' frogs; my princess already had quite a collection before she added me...
Frogprince

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM

There are times when a hothead gets a grip on a thread, and any time you show your face they go into hyperdrive with the insults and nasty behavior. If it's a thread where you still have something to say and don't feel like being run off by the cretin who is making up rhymes or cutting and pasting old remarks out of context or posting flimsy "evidence" to supstantiate their position, posting anonymous remarks in the conversation at least makes them stop to think if they're aiming at the right target. Most of the rest of the group still knows it's you, but it slows the perps down a little.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:35 PM

... and I'd say. "Hey, ____________ ____________, how ya doin'?" "Good to finally meet you"

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:37 PM

SRS, that's BS.

Like sticking your head in the sand and hiding from it.

Be a man and if you still have something to say, "look them in the eye and say it."

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:49 PM

Martin Gibson, do a search on *daylia* and then come back and tell me that. You don't know what you're talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 05:56 PM

All kinds of good reasons why someone might want to post in a way that wasn't tied in with their normal Mudcat name It might be they wanted to talk about something personal, that they wanted to keep private, but talk about - and Jerry have an example of this in his first sentence.

Or perhaps someone has constructed a Mudcat person that doesn't actually match up with the way they were. I can remember Martin Gibson telling us on several occasions that this was the case with him , and I'm sure he isn't the only one. But then, for some reason they want to say something in their own voice that won't be coloured by the type of things they've been saying "in character", and logging in as a GUEST with a name is one way of doing that.

And I'm sure there are any number of other reasons.

What defeats me is why anyone would feel a wish to come in as a nameless GUEST, except by accident on occasion, or as a new user. The only reason I've ever seen given is "because I can" and that's not a reason for doing anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:14 PM

I agree with MG and McG. I must admit that I've never come in as a Guest to say something outspoken. If I feel the need to say something critical of another member or what is going on in here, I say it with my name. For me, saying nasty stuff under the guise of Guest is like wearing a cyber sheet. With eye holes. At the same time, I have no problem at all with Guests who for whatever reason just want to come in and join into the conversation in a non-inflammatory way. Sometimes folks are going through some tough stuff and want to talk about it, but feel that they can't with their regular identity. That's fine with me. I'd rather they do that than not come in. And McG, I believe that people have given other reasons for coming in as a Guest. You acknowledged that at the start of your message. If they feel the need for anonymity for reasons other than being obnoxious, I don't care whether they call themselves Guest/Aardvark, or just Guest.

Just Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:20 PM

I must add, Martin, that advising SRS to be a man is both counterproductive and unnatural, and violates my sense of aesthetics.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:23 PM

Personally, I don't see any difference between a member whose 3D identity is well known in the Mudcat posting as an anonymous guest for the purpose of making personal attacks on other Mudcatters, and a member who keeps their 3D world identity a secret from the Mudcat at large so they can make personal attacks on other Mudcatters.

As with the last thread on this subject, I'll second what McGrath said about not posting anything in this forum that one wouldn't be willing to say to say to someone else face to face.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: PoppaGator
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 06:51 PM

I try to be truthful hereabouts in everything I reveal about myself, and certainly in the opinions I express, but y'all are not getting the *whole* truth, not by any means.

Part of the appeal of being anonymous, or semi-anonymous, or of maintaining a synthetic identity, is that *nothing* is truly "personal." I consider these discussions as an arena for ideas and stories, and I feel free to express my differences (when I have them) as baldly as I please without intending *any* personal attack -- and I generally expect the same in return.

If I experience anything remotely like "hurt feelings" when another poster attacks or disagrees, I manage to supress the feeling pretty quickly and easily -- because it ain't me you're arguing with, it's the phantom known as PoppaGator.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 12:57 AM

Then there is the guy who gives you the finger only from the safety of his speeding car as it goes by. MG, I think, is one of those. That's my complete opinion of his way over-the-top value judgments on this forum. As I've said, I'd like to shake his hand. And while doing that I'd pull him close and kick him in the b...s !

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 02:06 AM

This discussion of anonymity does beg an important related question. It reminds me that on occasion at Mudcat, and in other written communications, there is a question of the intended voice of the writer vs the received tone of voice supplied the reader. These are not always in sync. I generally find it surprising when people read something that I have written in a frank and unadorned manner as brusk or rude. Considering again what I've written, I find that it is their reading, their state of mind providing an emphasis on certain words, that makes it so. Plain speaking seems to be less common in this world, where there is such a verbosity that all words are all devalued. Ideas must be embellished to be polite? I'm by no means a woman of few words, but it is surprising how many people bring their own anger to what they read and assume it was there at the time of writing. We seem to live in a time when people require sugar coated words. All fluffy and Politically Correct. Civility and conciseness are not mutually exclusive.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:59 AM

Hey, people are two faced, lie, cheat and are downright mean in real life, why should we all expect this place to be any different?

Trouble is, people get disappointed, upset and downright wounded on here as well as real life. Just as I would try not to join in a conversation with real people who were bitching about one other, I try not to post inflammatory stuff here. Sometimes you just can't help it if other people from different backgrounds don't understand your brand of humour or lifestyle.

Anonymity is something that we are all losing, slowly but surely. We have an unlisted telephone number at home, but we still get at least 10 unsolicited calls a week wanting to sell us double glazing or lend us money or revamp our mortgage.

To be able to become someone else, to be the real 'me' instead of who people expect me to be, is a much needed escape route that we all need. To be able to post anonymously is a great help in requesting advice for a difficult personal situation. Not everyone wants their dirty washing aired in public, but sometimes it needs that external view.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Blowzabella
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 04:38 AM

It is also true that, because most people on Mudcat are not known to one another in real life, a person might wish to discuss something that they don't want to be 'traced' to for more important reasons.

Let us say, for instance, someone wants to talk about a problem at work. Who is to say that the 'problem' they want to discuss isn't being caused by another Mudcatter (unknown to the original poster). Or that the 'problem person' wouldn't read the posting as a 'lurker' or non-member. Over the years, people give enough snippets away about themselves in different posts, so that if someone wanted to build a pen-picture of another Catter, reading their posts would give a fair assessment and might get them into serious trouble. It isn't just the members and guests who read this forum. I wouldn't be a bit surprised to discover that many people, who we never come into 'contact' with, just read - people watching.

Like in those scary movies when the scared person runs for help and pours out their heart to the very person who is after them (usually only the viewer knows this bit though!)

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:17 AM

Members who don't use their own name, and have not posted a profile or photos are chosing some level of anonymity. I don't see anything wrong with that. There are many Catters I enjoy in here who I don't even know whether they are male or female.

John Lennon and Yoko Ono made a thought provoking appearance on television once wearing full length paper bags covering them. The point they were trying to make is that people are judged by their appearance, by their color and ethnicity. If everyone wore a full length paper bag, no one could be prejudiced by color or race, and people wouldn't be thought of as ugly or beautiful because of their appearance. I thought it was an excellent point to make.

Most Catters wear full length paper bags.

And that's fine with me. It kinda strips life down to its essentials.

Jerry (I guess we'd all be in the bag, then...)

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:31 AM

I suppose there'd be some kind of snobbery build up about having the right sort of bag. Or sponsorship, with logos all over the bag. Or stuff like bumper stickers - "Baby Aboard" or "If you can read this you are TOO CLOSE".

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:44 AM

i agree that anaonymous is good, for me its essential, and without it i wouldnt be able to be part of mudcat. I work in a job where I'm not allowed to comment publicly on anything, so i enjoy the anonimity that using freda's name provides.

my cat name, freda underhill, is derived from Frodo Baggins' name (Mr Underhill) that he used when they all went incognito to the prancing pony at the beginning of their big journey ( and freda is a bit like frodo). as well, I have caroused in as nurse ratched, as bleeding gums boris, natasha smasher, and amalia clawall on the vlad the inhaler threads. these names are for fun, not for the purpose of making mean or snide comments. nurse ratched may need a little taming sometimes, she seems to have developed a life of her own. i also pose as a guest when i want to say something thats very personal, and want to get the info thru without being judged.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 11:14 AM

Aha! The truth finally emerges, though I think many of us had guessed at least about Ratched. (BTW--You've done a very nice job of creating Nurse Ratched--she's one of my favorite visitors to the recovery ward and the Mudcat tavern).

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 12:57 PM

All of the following is my own opinion, each statement should be read with an implied "for me," "personally," "I think/believe" in it. I'm just sharing my perceptions and not trying to tell anybody what they should believe. I'm right, though.

Nobody you're arguing with is as much of an asshole in real life as they seem in print. I'm not sure why some people want to believe they are or respond to them as such.

Members occasionally go anonymous just to say something nasty to a person they don't like. I don't like it, I don't respect it, and I think it's chickenshit. It's one way I judge if I really should be saying what I'm saying - if I start thinking "jeez - I oughtta log out if I'm gonna say THAT," then it's a clue I shouldn't be saying it at all. It keeps me honest, and it keeps me from acting like too much of an asshole. I also know how I've felt as an 'innocent bystander' when someone else does it. Was this anonymous asshole somebody I thought I liked and respected? Who is it, I wonder? Was I nice to them, because if I was, I'm going to feel a bit betrayed. This going anon to post something they're just a bit ashamed of is the only thing that bothers me about anonymity these days.

Writing about personal matters, being a character/persona, asking questions, or even expressing an opinion such as "I really hate Emu Burgerflotz's version of that song!" don't bother me. Not so long as posts don't contain negative things about people who're likely to read them.

When I first posted song lyrics, I did it anonymously. I did it that way because I was worried that people would say "nice song" simply because they felt a compliment was the polite thing to do for someone they 'knew'. Like when you're in a song circle or HearMe or elsewhere, and a person does a song completely off-key and folks say "nice song." I WANTED people to tell me about things they didn't like, problems, and flat-out mistakes. Nobody did anyway. Either the songs were perfect, people figured "It might be someone I'm friends with, and will be upset if I don't like their song," or "this is a shy person who's afraid of saying she wrote the song, so I'd better give her some encouragement." Or maybe folks just weren't good at critiquing things. That was then. These days, there's an equal chance somebody will just tell a person their song sucks because they don't like the individual.

In any case, posting anonymously is perfectly fine if a person doesn't want to deal with prejudiced (against OR for) responses. People carping about the anonymity of someone who's being reasonable and considerate is much more obnoxious.

McGrath, I think fear is a big factor with people who are determined to post as a nameless GUEST. They don't want folks to read their past history here, they don't want their posts linked. Why they don't is just too deep of an issue to try to figure out. They might think people won't pay any attention to them if they know "Oh...it's that person again," or they may be concerned about people following them around and flaming them whenever they post. Maybe it's happened previously, or maybe they're just worried because it could happen. Life's too short to try to figure out their motives.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 01:41 PM

You said it all, Jeri. Or is it Just Jeri? You never know what has happened to a person that might make them feel insecure about using their right name. Most Mudcatters don't either, for that matter :-)

So, where are all of our much-maligned Guests?

You're welcome in here.

Just Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:25 PM

Art, before you start wanting to kick some one like me in the balls (spell it out, Art, it's really not a cuss word), try to find your own balls in dealing with your own demons.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 03:38 PM

Martin I sometimes think you should have chosen the psuedenym 'Devil's Advocate' you just can't resist stirring people up. I used to do that when I was younger, as a means of provoking a more honest reaction. Now I've learned to trust my judgement, and take people as I find them. I know it's difficult to judge people when you can't see them, but that cuts both ways, and is a curse as well as a blessing.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:06 PM

I can understand why someone uses another Mudcat name than the real one, but I cannot understand why
people uses different Mudcat names to play different roles
people log out to insult others
people play here another persona than they are in life.

I even can't really understand why people chose anonymity when talking about something potentially embarrassing. When I talk to friends about something potentially embarrassing I do it openly since I trust them. When something is so embarrassing that I trust nobody I know I might prefer to talk about it anonymously to people that do not know me. But the choice to talk to people that I do know and that do know me anonymously I can't understand. I think I'd PM people I trust in such a situation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Chris Green
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:11 PM

Wolfgang, you're an intelligent and incisive bloke! Well said, mate!

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:31 PM

Tolerance is about recognising and accommodating the fact that others have different needs, feelings, and/or behaviour.

the UN put it well -

1.4 Consistent with respect for human rights, the practice of tolerance does not mean toleration of social injustice or the abandonment or weakening of one's convictions. It means that one is free to adhere to one's own convictions and accepts that others adhere to theirs. It means accepting the fact that human beings, naturally diverse in their appearance, situation, speech, behaviour and values, have the right to live in peace and to be as they are. It also means that one's views are not to be imposed on others.

http://www.unesco.org/tolerance/declaeng.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 06:37 PM

But when you talk on the Mudcat you might be talking to friends, but there are people listening in who might not be friends. And people don't always want to lay all their problems on all their friends and acquaintances, but they still might want to talk about them.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 07:57 PM

exactly.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:49 PM

No matter how many good-hearted Catters there are, talking on Mudcat doesn't even faintly resemble talking in person to a close friend.

Group revelation works alright in Group Therapy. On the internet, you takes your chances..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 09:54 PM

Ah, MG, you prove it once again.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:20 PM

As one of the more minor characters here, I see a need to defend the failure to post a profile or photograph. I'm just not important or interesting enough to bother. There's nothing to promote, nothing that needs to be said. So why bother?

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:27 PM

I haven't posted a profile either, but that's because this is open to the public so I don't post that kind of stuff. I have posted plenty of personal information, but someone would have to do an awful lot of reading to put any of it together from the 5112 posts I've sent to date. There is a photo, but that is only because there was an occasion that was suitable to document for other Mudcatters to see.

I believe it is Gargoyle who slammed 'catters for posting the obscure pieces of information about themselves, and for posting profiles and email addresses. It's not often I agree with Mr. Gargoyle, but there have been times when I've wondered about the extent of the information that some folks post here.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 10:30 PM

Hey, Mack:

Filing a photograph or a profile isn't self-promotion. And I for one would enjoy finding out more about you. None of us are important enough, and yet all of us are. And, I don't know anyone who isn't interesting to me.

But as I said, sometimes anonymous is good..

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Oct 04 - 12:24 PM

Yes, Art. I've proved that the word "balls" is not a cuss word.

Subject: RE: BS: Sometimes Anonymous is good
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 25 Oct 04 - 11:40 AM

MG---You've once again missed the humor. Like religions often do, you have concretized and confused my metaphor. I don't mean balls. I meant wherever it might have the best effect.   ;-)

Art