BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.

Subject: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 02:54 PM

Have you seen the Pounds to Pocket advert on UK telly?

Couldn't believe the small print on the screen. Still not sure if I've misread. loans at 287% APR.

If a bloke kicks in a shop window, he gets sent to the nick for crimes against the community. However when the country is already in the shit with too many people in debt, the lawmakers have made it legal for some rich asshole to injure our society even further with acts of usury.

This is potentially much more damaging to society than getting falling down drunk, or some small act of larceny.

Where is the morality in this situation?

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:01 PM

"Where is the morality in this situation?"

As my ol' pappy used to say, "Son, there's no point talkin' morals in a whorehouse."

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:27 PM

From Wikipedia (Payday Loans In The UK):

A typical payday loan could cost £20 for every £100 borrowed, meaning a £300 loan would cost £360 if it was repaid after one month. Since there are no legal limits on rolling over loans in the UK, if the loan was rolled over for six months it could cost as much as £660 to repay the loan in full. There are no restrictions on the interest rates payday loan companies can charge: one UK company offers a "typical APR" of 1355%, although this takes compounding into account; without compounding the APR would be 300%. Another lender advertises an annual rate of 2,225%. Most companies charge 25% for an advance repayable at the end of the month, which explains the high rate; a few charge 30%, which is equivalent to an APR of over 2,000%.

In Canada:

Payday loans in Canada are limited by usury laws, with any rate of interest charged above 60% per annum considered criminal according to the Criminal Code of Canada.

On August 14, 2006, the Supreme Court of British Columbia issued its decision in a class action lawsuit against A OK Payday Loans. A OK charged its customers 21% interest, as well as a "processing" fee of C$9.50 for every $50.00 borrowed. In addition a "deferral" fee of $25.00 for every $100.00 was charged if a customer wanted to delay payment. The judge ruled that the processing and deferral fees were interest, and that A OK was charging its customers a criminal rate of interest. The payout as a result of this decision is expected to be several million dollars. The British Columbia Court of Appeal unanimously affirmed this decision.

The US situation is much like that of the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: gnu
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 03:51 PM

I believe interest on cash loans should be regulated to be a certain percentage above the prime rate on the day of signing. I also believe that percentage should be no more than three times the prime rate but the legislation should allow the government to make adjustments as seen fit... with due cause and with at least three months notice of the intention to do so.

The very idea that credit for those in need is allowed to force them into ruin is certainly criminal. 60% in Canada, Rap? I did not know that... makes me ill.

Of course, I maybe talkin outta my ass on this one on accounta I really am no expert on any of this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 04:37 PM

I believe that everyone should contribute as much to society as they can, and that everyone should take as much as they need, but no more. But we're dealing with the Mafia here, and they are the ultimate economic liberals.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,Ms Penelope Rutledge
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:31 PM

You must be mad, Big Al. Of course posh folk should make the laws! Who else will properly govern society and maintain normal standards of British decency and order if the rich do not take up the task of doing so?

The vital thing, however, is to see that the nouveau-riche do not hijack the process, as they have neither the breeding nor the cultural/familial background to match their recently found wealth. A person has to have inherited class and character through a long line of aristocratic forbears, it can't simply be purchased.

* PR

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 06:36 PM

I thought the US also had fixed maxima on rates of interest, at least in some states.

I don't think it's anything much to do with "posh" people making the laws. After all the Consumer Credit Act does enable courts to strike down "extortionate credit" although a maximum rate would be a good thing. The Consumer Credit Act is positively draconian in some circumstances - the best example, if I have the name right, was Mrs Dimond. She went to a moneylender for a loan against her BMW. Due to non-compliance with a very technical requirement about how to calculate and state the APR (the Annual Percentage Rate) the agreement was void and she kept both her car and the money she'd borrowed!

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 08:12 PM

No, so far the rates on payday loans in the U.S. are still through the roof. They have good lobbyists. The new department to oversee consumer affairs will deal with payday lenders, which I heard can end up at about 400% in a year.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jan 12 - 09:12 PM

Can't you see what I'm saying?

Our legal system is allowing one group of people to do terrible damage, quite legally.

Whereas relatively trivial offences get the full power of the law.

Like that idiot who climbed up the cenotaph - bonkers but everyone's done daft shit at times. These Pound to Pocket people are engaging in an activity that will take people to despair and perhaps suicide.

And moreover its not a moments madness - its a set of acts of considered evil.

I reckon these people will be giving money to political parties, posing as public benefactors, running sporting events - and they should be pariahs.

Whoever has contrived these legal situation needs to be in the dungeon - along with the CEO of this nefarious organisation.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:49 AM

With that, Al, I wholly agree.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 06:24 AM

First and foremost, I agree that interest rates should be capped, by law, and I would suggest a maximum in line with store cards (about 30%-35% APR).

The reason given by government for failing to clamp down on these firms is that doing so would simply drive their clients into the waiting arms of the friendly neighbourhood loan shark, and that does have some validity.

However, a cap on interest would possibly remove the most avaricious usurers from the scene, leaving only the few who would find that lower interest acceptable.

Time to give the government a nudge in the right direction!

Maybe if enough of us propose that "38 Degrees" take it up as their next project instead of moaning about it here?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 07:16 AM

Just looked up Wonga, and their rate of interest is 4214% !!!!!! That's four THOUSAND two hundred and fourteen percent!!! I agree that this is wicked and something should be put in place to cap these short term loans. They're bait for anxious and not-too-savvy folk in serious debt already.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 08:07 AM

I agree with the your last post too, Al. But what has it got to do with 'posh' people?

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 09:02 AM

And what exactly are 'posh' people?

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 10:34 AM

well in this country we have posh peoples law. I remember when we had a record out in Germany . the generally held view was that we would get at least three times as much loot as if the record company was English - in other countries ordinary folk are more protected.

In this country, the monied classes have a licence to rip us all off. And that is of course why Murdoch wants the politicians in his pocket - they take care of him.

if you want fair remuneration for your work, or protection from moneyed villlains - we get all the usual bleating about the 'politics of envy' - the Thatcherite war cry.

Bloody crooks, the lot of them!

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Musket
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:12 PM

Steady on Al..

Attitude and money are not always related. I'm dead posh and financially comfortable.

I'm not a crook though.

Though I am dead posh. Being brought up in Worksop makes you posh, or at least it does in comparison to those raggy arsed buggers in Dinnington.

Great that you bring up crooks, as that is a great levelling career. There are posh crooks and there are rough as a badger's arse crooks. Sorry mate, but your pre-emptive strike on the subject of politics of envy was a bit too obvious. In the real world, I find there is a hell of a lot of it about. Now.. if you reckon that makes me Th*tcherite, we might just start rolling sleeves up and brace yourself for a Manton handshake.

Just out of interest, would you vote for a politician if that person promised to take care of what you need from society? If saying nice things about them helped get them elected, would you complain or say nice things about them? You know, like the dirty digger does?

Just a thought..

Anybody would think that politics is about by the people for the people...

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 12:47 PM

Rather a simplistic view I know, but if one sat down hard on the 'posh' (by which I think you mean the wealthy and exploitative) would they not take their wealth elsewhere? And would that not be Bad Thing for the country? We'd be left with a lot of saintly poorer folk, who wouldn't spend much, neither would they consume or invest? Our economy would stagnate or slowly descend.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 01:47 PM

The law does seem to favour the stinking rich. Why else would these guys like Murdoch have whole floors full of lawyers working for them to manipulate the law to do their bidding? Find loopholes to excuse them from their obligations.

This isn't just something that's happened overnight in England   Take a look round Brighton Pavilion sometime, you'll see how the Prince Regent had fabulous parties, the best chef from France, amazing banquets - and outside the law was enforcing the bloody code - hanging children for stealing a loaf of bread, etc.

Its part of the English psyche - inequality.

What would have happened if Lonnie Donnegan and The Beatles hadn't been cheated out of their money - by labyrnthine legal and tax system?   they would have spent the money - in England, paid purchase tax on everything. Everyone in the music nusiness has horror stories of how much they've been ripped off. people who've given us the soundtrack for our lifetimes - classic singles - reduced to poverty. Its not right. but if you're a musician - you take it on the chin - you say well these bastards aren't going to stop me doing what I want to do.

However this business of pounds to pocket. it is so obviously exploitative of the very poor and naive. i can't believe a civilised country allows it.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 02:23 PM

Comparing payday lenders to the Mafia is the grossest sort of exaggeration.

No self-respecting Mafia member would ever want to be associated with those guys.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:34 PM

I'm in whole hearted agreement - what interest do you get on deposit at the moment compared to what these loan sharks are making? The gulf is staggering.

"Money doesn't talk, it swears!"

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Acorn4
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 04:35 PM

....don't agree about the 'posh' necessarily thought. Some of theses types are the epitome of seediness.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 05:19 PM

Don't exaggerate, Al. In the Regent's time, the death sentence was often passed for minor offences, but almost always remitted. so only a few children got hanged, the majority were transported, normally for 7 or 14 years. So, you see, it was really all right.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 05:19 PM

Ah - OK. Gotcha now, Al. It's people with money that should not make laws then. Not posh people? Yes? Sounds fair enough to me. We would not let paedophiles draft child care legislation nor let burglers design property protection laws. Why should people with money make laws that allow the rich to become richer. Is that the gist?

The only issue I would have with it that I do not believe it is monied people who make the laws is it? In my own simplistic mind it is politicians who do that. And who elects the politicians? Don't get me wrong. I agree with your argument. I am a stalwart socialist at heart. I am also a realist though and understand that WHOEVER gets the power will bend it to their own ends. Call me an old cynic but remember that whoever you vote for, the government always gets in!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jan 12 - 07:48 PM

I think if the 20th century taught us anything it was that political ideologies have none of the answers. Left or right. We've both been let down.

It comes down to personal decency. Those interest rates are indecent.


Any political party, newspaper, television channel - who want a piece of that action should be razed to the ground.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Musket
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:20 AM

Left and right, we've been let down?

Steady on, that's the rally call of the bleeding Lib Dems!

Dave has it right. Power corrupts and absolute etc. Many of the MPs creaming off the expenses and accepting back handers over the years have not been silver spoon merchants but the likes of you and I originally, and were corrupted. I have seen genuine, want to help society people become elected members on their councils and a few years later get a shared cell for feeding from the trough.

In support of your position, I would say that these types are not as clever as those who seem to get away with things, and on balance, those you would deem "posh" are far better at covering their tracks. Mind you, that is a sweeping generalisation. Although this thread called for such comment I suppose..

Something I have always thought by the way, involves Al's comment about having floors full of lawyers. Don't blame the puppy for shitting on the carpet. If governments made tight legislation in the first place, loopholes wouldn't exist. On the other hand, loopholes work two ways and many would be appalling decisions have been overturned when the army of lawyers have been on the side you might agree with.

Interpretation of law rather than letter might serve Murdoch, but it can also serve the people. Judicial reviews can prevent the government from being autocratic and help conserve a free (ish) society. The downside is he who has the largest legal budget might just win. Hence eating McDonalds doesn't fur up your arteries and shorten your life expectancy. It was proved in court, as opposed to successive coroner's inquests.

All relative really.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,MikeL2
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:01 AM

hi Al

I agree with what you say about the horrors of Payday loans.

Surely the Government know that this kind of thing is the reason why the current economic situation is caused - by people being able to borrow money that they cannot repay.

Isn't that what happened with the banks ??

There should be some protection to prevent such loans being allowed to go on.

Worse than that though is your point Al about being advertised heavily on TV. Surely this is easy to stop??

I read somewhere this week that the UK is the only Country that allows this ( tho some comments above would appear to say that isn't correct.)

Happy New Year

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:18 AM

With respect Al I think you're view is a bit simplistic. Yes, the APR rate is outrageous, but these are not intended as long-term loans. They're short term to be paid back in a matter of weeks. The charges are high in proportion to the amount borrowed, but probably affordable.

If you were to borrow a tenner off a mate until payday, you probably wouldn't pay him interest as such, but you might buy him a pint as a thank-you - that's £2-£3 or more against a principal of £10. What's the difference?

These are high-risk commercial businesses. Their admin costs are high relative to the amount borrowed and there's a fairly high risk of default. Their charges are high, but it's a very competitive market which will help to keep them down. If the government were to cap what they're allowed to charge, then if that makes them unprofitable they'll simply stop providing loans.

What are the alternatives? These are people who the mainstream banks won't touch with a barge-pole. But we can't rant about the banks losing billions through high-risk lending and then complain when they won't give a loan to someone with a poor credit score. The government? That's you and me. We're probably already paying their benefits, why should we subsidise their borrowing? That leaves credit unions, but there aren't many of these and new ones take time to build up a fund, or loan sharks who charge even more exorbitant rates of interest and are a lot more ruthless about collecting them.

It's not an ideal situation, and I share your unease. However these services are necessary for thousands of people, and are perhaps the least bad option for most of them.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST,Eliza
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 08:08 AM

I don't myself see why 'these services are necessary for thousands of people'. They have obviously been unable to husband their resources or live within their means (for whatever reason) and enticing them into further debt isn't 'necessary', it's cruel madness. Incurring high interest-debt to repay debt is plain daft. I'd be interested to see figures of those who haven't repaid the loan by 'Payday', and to learn what happens to them after that.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Howard Jones
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 02:02 PM

Perhaps I should have said "thousands of people find them necessary". For whatever reason, many people seem to find themselves with too much month left at the end of the money, and if they've no other resources they have to get a loan to tide them over. This is nothing new - these places are nothing more than pawnshops in another guise, and they've been around for centuries.

Of course it would be better if people didn't have to do this, and of course it would better if people could husband their resources to last out. But this is the real world.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 06:54 PM

In Alberta, "a payday loan is $1500 or less. The term of the loan cannot exceed 62 days. The maximum fee a payday lender can charge is $23 per $100. This includes all mandatory fees and charges related to the loan."
Payday lenders must be licensed by the Province.

http://www.servicealberta.ca/pdf/tipsheets/Payday_Lending.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jan 12 - 07:54 PM

Reason not the need...

the point is that the government should invest in its own people - not just the high fliers - the scufflers as well.

It would produce (a government loan) at least as good a return as loans to galtieri to shoot bullets as us, and loans to Russian gangsters.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Musket
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 04:05 AM

True Al.

But figure this. Government investment in public infrastructure was always demonstrated to be cheaper and fairer to the taxpayer than PFI.

But PFI was seen to be the way forward. Why was that?

And didn't Broon call himself a socialist?

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:11 AM

Al, have you ever considered standing as an MP?

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:18 AM

not clever enough

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:42 AM

Much too nice!

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:06 AM

Alan Sugar would be greatly amused at the inference that only posh people are rich.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: MikeL2
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:31 AM

Hi

My old Dad ( bless his cotton socks) always said that the definition of posh to be those people who got out of the bath to pee.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:09 AM

Implication?

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:14 AM

PS. I do however agree that Sugar is uncouth.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 12:13 PM

what was wrong with those Amstrad music centres - there was general agreement at the time that they were a load of crap.

Not long after, I had a Amstrad word processer and I loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 07:27 PM

I was a great fan of the Amstrad PCW series.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:26 AM

Well it was limited but I loved the way you could store huge blocks under you keyboard numbers in Locoscript. I still miss that.

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 07:01 PM

Pawnshops in another guise? Well, they haven't replaced them. I stood in the centre of Harlow and found I could count five pawnshops in sight. All of them opened up in the last couple of years.

Back to the future.

(I think MikeL 2's dad got that bath thing the wrong way round. Surely really posh people don't worry about stuff like that.)

Subject: RE: BS: posh folk shouldn't make the laws.
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 12 Jan 12 - 09:25 AM

Hey Al - just bear in mind that one man's "poor" is another's "posh". In the eyes of e.g. someone living in an East-African refugee camp, you and I aren't just posh, we're absolutely, filthy, stinking, obscenely rich.

Just to add a little perspective.