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3 days of urban black music
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Subject: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 10 Nov 99 - 11:44 PM I've been suffering with the headache from hell the last 3 days. (happens a couple of times a year) 'Cause lyin' down just makes it worse, usually I'll do a really complex leather carving project to take my mind off it, and listen to music. This time, I was reminded that I joined in a discussion about whether "Rap was Folk" a few weeks ago, and even though I had a vague idea about some of the music and it's better known practioners..I was still talking through my hat. I thought it might be interesting to tune in a black station and REALLY try to understand what I was hearing. It's been an eye (and ear) opening experience to say the least. I think it took at least 2 or 3 hours of listening to get some kind of handle on the various dialects (we don't speak a lot of "urban black" here in the Beaches area of Toronto). The music that's played here has touches of Jamaican, Trinidadian, and African as well as L.A. street talk. The biggest surprise to me was the variety of sound. I'd always perceived "rap" to be totally repetitive, and as someone suggested in that other thread - mainly doggerel. Kinda the way some of my friends react to bluegrass. Actually there appear to be many quite distinctive styles, and like all music, there are lyrics that are total crap and some quite brilliant. Most are quite angry of course, and some portray a hoplessness that's very sad. However a lot are joyous and some bitingly funny. In a way they reminded me a great deal of how frightened "straight people" were of rock and roll back in the late 50s. Elvis, Jerry Lee, Little Richard and especially Chuck Berry, and the Stones (a little later on). Granted the times and the tunes (and even the message) were much tamer then, but a lot of preachers thought it was the end of the (their) world. It also reminded me of when I first heard the political music of Pete, Phil Ochs and bands like Country Joe and the Fish,...and the dreaded FUGS! The same messages were sent out to a lot of middleclass kids like me: rebel, "take it easy, but TAKE it"! Be different, don't end up like your parents. And especially "it's US against THEM!" A huge part of the audience for urban black music is young white kids, and though that might be bloody scary to their parents,(and white society in general) I think I can see why. 40 years ago Elvis was flat out dangerous..and even though he was part of rock and roll, Pat Boone wasn't much of a threat.(we all knew that when HE sang "Long Tall Sally" - as opposed to Little Richard, he didn't REALLY mean it) I'm sorry that the amount of violence in rap is so pervasive, and that the singer's message often (but not always) seems to be "I'll be dead or in jail 5 years from now..so stay outta my way, cause I got nothin' to lose". When I think back though, there was a lot of actual and implied violence in the folk(ish) music that captured me completely, but it was detached and distant and certainly not in the first person like a lot of rap. Anyway, listening to it (probably about 7 hours worth) has been interesting, troubling and definitely worthwhile. Snoop Ricky Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: katlaughing Date: 11 Nov 99 - 12:32 AM Dear Snoop Ricky Rick, I will lead a protest any day to preserve your right to rap or pluck or carve, anyday!**BG** Did you listen to some of that on your radio station at CIUT? I listened to them a few mornings and thoroughly enjoyed the banter, chatter, phone-ins and the music. I like the patois of the different dialects; it reminded me of what I used to hear in certain parts of New England; perked my ears right up. Snoop Katty Kat, yer groupie forever! |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: WyoWoman Date: 11 Nov 99 - 12:52 AM Dear Snoop Ricky Rick, I think a lot of the objection to rap music is of the "shoot the messenger" variety. Music has always expressed what's going on in any given culture, and what's going on in the lives of a lot of folks who are creating rap isn't all that purty. some of it is a rhythmic scream. People hate hearing other people screaming, but sometimes it's instructive to hear WHAT they're screaming. I agree -- it's not MY musical form, but it's interesting and worthy. Just because an art form's not immediately accessible to us doesn't mean we ought to just dismiss it out of hand. Some of my least favorite years with my kids came when my son was in his black tee shirt years and HIS music made rap sound downright melodious. (Much-anguished guitars, as I recall, and utterly incomprehensible lyrics. Very unattractive album covers...) Still, it expressed something he needed to give voice to, so I tried very hard to stretch my listening enough to hear something of what he was hearing. (I think one of the reasons he and I are so close now is that I actually listened to his music and respected his right to make his own choices. Thank god, however, that he got past those particular choices. We do move on, if we don't have to defend our positions to the death! And look at musical history -- every single new form has been resisted when it first burst on the scene. Human beans aren't cool about change. WW-Run Mama |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Escamillo Date: 11 Nov 99 - 01:04 AM It comes to my mind that memorable piece of black music that is "Sixteen Tons". Here are some verses: If ya hear me a-comin' ya better step aside A lotta men din't an' a lotta men died With one fist of iron an' the other of steel If the right one don' getcha then the left one will. I was born one mornin' when the sun didn't shine Picked up my shovel and I went to the mine Loaded sixteen tons of number nine coal And the strawboss said, "Well, Bless my soul!" And, how old is this song ? Always the same story... Yours, Andrés Magré
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Roger in Baltimore Date: 11 Nov 99 - 07:57 AM Andres, That may sound like black music, but I believe Sixteen Tons was written by Merle Travis (a white guy) and popularized by Tennessee Ernie Ford (another white guy and an absolutely wonderful voice). I do not believe Merle stole it from any black traditional music. Oh, it is in the DT, and it is copyrighted (do we have permission?) Roger in Baltimore |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: M Date: 11 Nov 99 - 12:50 PM Thanks, Rick, for posting and describing your findings "from the field." In an earlier post about the merits of other music (I think), there was an overall dismissing of music that wasn't folk/blues/traditional/whatever. My musical tastes are not rigidly delineated and my comment was that it's all valid, it's all art. Glad to see that someone who's closer to the scene here at the Mudcat is (kinda) acting as an ambassador. Though, from the number of responses, it may be preaching to the converted. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: WyoWoman Date: 11 Nov 99 - 02:21 PM I'm a complete musical slut. (Wrote a column about it sometime back, if you want me to email it to you.) If you could see my CD collection it would make your head spin. I really love certain types of music, but I would go crazy if I had to listen to any one kind all the time. I like all the different instrumentation, melodies, harmonies, nuances and shadings. But then, I feel the same way about people. I have a very short list of types of people I can't stand (arrogant, snobbish, mean, inconsiderate, brats, etc) and otherwise, I just love knowing all different kinds of people. Colors, races, religious traditions, sexual orientation, political convictions -- all just make the mix more interesting to me. Which brings up a thought -- do you think our ability to embrace a variety of musical forms is directly connected to our ability to embrace human variety? And does a steady diet of one kind of music not only reflect our narrowness but help to shape it? WW |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Nov 99 - 03:54 PM Good point Wyo. Generally I've never had much of an interest in what is called on this side of the pond "easy listening". I'm sure that everyone has a different definition of just what that means (just as they do for folk, pop, etc.). For me it's meant folks like Tom Jones, Engelbert, Sinatra, Streisand, Celine etc. They're all talented, but just don't do anything for me. In the same vein I never found much to write home about with bands like The Kingston Trio, Brothers Four, or Peter Paul and Mary (after their first album). Not to say that I'm anti-pop. I was/am a huge Beatles fan, likewise the Kinks, Stones, CCR and a fair number of other bands who certainly were mainstream. I think my sometimes cynical outlook on mainstream society is often reflected in my totally obsessive love of traditional musics. As a kid, when I needed a voice or some kind of validation..it came from Leadbelly and Woody..not Elvis. 'Course, if I'd been able to dance, I might never have discovered folk at all. The "rap" listening experience is on hold now. I just wanted to have an idea of what I was shooting my mouth off about...when the next time comes. Rick (still feeling like ratshit) |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Nov 99 - 04:09 PM Thanks for pointing that out Rog. Actually there IS a controversy regarding 16 tons. I have an old Folkways album by George Davis "the Singing Miner of Hazard Kentuckey". He claims to have ABSOLUTELY written "16 Tons" (which he sung as 42 Tons,..and in a major key). He presents a decent case what with being older than Travis, and having sung trad and made up miners' songs for years. He's a pretty shaky singer and player and it's certainly believable to me that Merle may have shaped the raw material, and not bothered with giving credit. Several of Merle's hot instrumentals are VERY close to those of old time miners and pickers Mose Rager and Ike Everly. Merle was a GIANT and naturally became very famous, and I think we've seen that to REALLY surface, performers need more than talent. They have to have an ambition and drive that can sometimes leave their teachers uncredited and hence unremembered. Certainly Dylan, the Stones (at times) and even the Weavers (remember Paul Cambell) could be guilty of that. Merle was and will remain one of my all time favourite musicians. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: annamill Date: 11 Nov 99 - 08:41 PM THANK YOU RICK! I have been saying this since I joined this wonderful place. You mentioned that many white kids are listening to rap..I feel that Rap may be the one thing that overcomes the unreasonable stupidity of racism. They tell you why they're angry and frightend and hopeless. Just listen, then do what you can do to help. If there is anything. Our children hear them, thank goodness. Maybe now something will be different. Pretty good stuff, some of it, huh? Poetry. Folk? Yeah. That this is recognized here brings tears to my eyes. I'm not a big rap fan. I don't listen to it often, only when my son brings something to my attention, but I recognize why he likes it. love, annap |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 11 Nov 99 - 09:31 PM Thanks Anna. I'd add more but I've still got the migraine miseries. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Caitrin Date: 11 Nov 99 - 10:29 PM Musical narrowness is generally just a symptom of general narrowness. Most people who make blanket statements like "I don't like rap." or "I don't like folk." are the same kinds of people who will say "I don't like (fill in the blank) people." Closed-mindedness annoys me a great deal. I think it's truly sad that we all so rarely genuinely listen to each other. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Bill D Date: 11 Nov 99 - 11:07 PM good thing you said 'generally' Catrin...I am quite narrow in my musical tastes and tolerances..*grin*...but I try to have wide tolerances and respect for ethnic diversity... the problem with 'rap' is that it is not a happy music/....it is hard, bitter, pushy, angry...etc...and telling me that it is just a reflection of the lives of the people who do it, does NOT in my view, make it tolerable as entertainment...If someone wants to study the underlying causes of rap, be my guest...but don't play it near me!... (and I don't seem to remember the last time a ballad singer ..or even a banjo player...was gunned down in a drive-by shooting) |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Escamillo Date: 11 Nov 99 - 11:20 PM Sorry for my ignorance, I would have bet that Sixteen Tons was blacker than coal. May be because I saw it among many negro spirituals an old folk in a music book. This would demonstrate that color is not important when men are suffering. Yours, Andrés Magré |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Caitrin Date: 12 Nov 99 - 10:27 PM Not all rap is all that depressing. I mean, what would you think of folk if all you'd ever heard was protest songs? Not exactly cheery stuff. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Neil Lowe Date: 12 Nov 99 - 11:23 PM Snoop...Annap...et al: I work with a young guy who frequently turns me on to groups gleaned from his musical library, partly to broaden my musical horizons and partly to shock my staid sensibilities. He gets a kick out of my utter repulsion to groups like Cannibal Corpse (whose songs as you may guess deal mostly with necrophelia and consumption of dead bodies). I was familiar with an L.A. based (I think) group called Rage Against The Machine, having heard "Evil Empire" before he loaned me their self-titled debut album. Rap lyrics imposed on repetitively simple hard-rock riffs. The amazing thing is their astute and intelligent treatment of social and political concerns. No bones about it, these guys deliver their message bluntly and uncensored, often screaming an expletive-adorned key phrase repeatedly to register their outrage at some particular social injustice. It's effective and memorable. I can't say I'm a fan, or that I would buy a tee-shirt, but it's heartening to see such young, impassioned musicians with a social conscience delivering music in a popular vein with more attention to the message rather than the residuals. Neil Lowe |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: WyoWoman Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:23 PM Yeah, I don't say I *like* all music -- and, Rick, I have no tolerance for "easy listening." It makes my teeth itch. Probably because it isn't *about" anything. I feel the same way about a lot of "New Age" music. It's just so saccharine. And the rap and heavy metal genres are certainly not what I'd choose to spend time listening to. But I do think they're worth listening to for the messages they're sending out from and by the ones who DO listen to them steadily. Really sorry about your migraines, Mr. Fielding. Any let-up? My daughter has 'em and I know they're simply miserable. ww |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Caitrin Date: 13 Nov 99 - 01:35 PM I'm definitely with you on this one, Wyo. I'd add most current Top 40 music to the list of saccharine music, though. (i.e. Britney Spears, Backstreet Boys, N Sync, etc.) There's entirely too much music of the cute-and-fluffy-but-substanceless variety. (Though I do have to plead guilty to listening to some substanceless music every now and then, though not too often. I also read romance novels. My dirty little secrets of shallowness.) |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 13 Nov 99 - 04:19 PM Bill, as I found out, not all of it is that negative..but I hear your point. One of the saddest times in my life was finding out (first hand) that an absolute bluegrass hero of mine was still a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and in his younger days had gone on many a terror foray. It made me sick, and even though I know (from his implication) that there were many others, it's still hard to listen to his wonderful music. What I learned was to not ask personal questions, 'cause my enjoyment of the music is too important to me. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Bill D Date: 13 Nov 99 - 07:18 PM Rick...yep..lots of "Idols with feet of Clay".....I have met a couple of well-know folkies who were snobby, selfish, and grumpy...but mostly, they are great, wonderful people... wish I could say the same about Rap artists....*shrug* "Lord, give me patience--and give it to me NOW!" |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Caitrin Date: 14 Nov 99 - 02:52 PM Bill, I think you're making some unfair generalizations. I can't testify to the character of any rap artists, because I haven't met any. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 14 Nov 99 - 11:04 PM Generally I found it easier to get into than some current white teen music, which seems to have even more "attitude" than rap. Geez I'm lucky I grew up middle class, cause I'm not sure I'd be so objective and detached about everything (not just music) had my life been a fight from day one. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: WyoWoman Date: 15 Nov 99 - 11:39 AM Amen. As I say, I think it pays to try and understand where the scream is coming from, rather than just clap our hands over their mouths because the cacophony bothers our sensibilities. ww |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: lamarca Date: 15 Nov 99 - 06:09 PM The funny thing about rap and hip-hop is that a lot of the white kids who buy it ARE middle class. It's the old need to rebel against parental (or other) authority that makes angry music so popular among children who haven't a CLUE about the living conditions that spawn the anger and frustration. When I was a teenager, I gravitated to world-weary, depressing, cynical performers like Jethro Tull, The Strawbs and others, when I'd barely lived long enough to have justification for cynicism. (Actually, I'm STILL drawn to that type of music - anyone else like The Cowboy Junkies?) If I were a psychologist (which I'm not) I'd say it reflects teenagers' need to separate themselves from their parents' generation. Still, I find affluent kids mimicking an underpriveleged culture just to feel "cool", and merchants making a profit off the trends, to be distasteful. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Caitrin Date: 15 Nov 99 - 06:29 PM There are a lot of folks at my school who listen to rap, wear baggy jeans, etc. just to be cool. Most of them haven't a clue what they're talking about. The genuinely angry white kids tend to listen to KORN, Rage Against the Machine, Coal Chamber, and other "hard core" bands, which is a completely different set of angry music with its own set of frustrations. And then there's those of us who,when listening to angry music, listen to slightly more melodious stuff. But there's no accounting for taste. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: thosp Date: 16 Nov 99 - 12:25 AM sorry rick--- i'm certainly not one to correct spelling,but isn't it |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: katlaughing Date: 16 Nov 99 - 05:58 PM Nope, urbane means polite, polished. Urban is of the city, etc. I do words, sorry; one my favourite books growing up was the two-volume, each 4 inches thick, dictionary. 'Course ya can't tell it from my typing.*grin* Caitrin, it sure is interesting to hear from a young'un on this. I found a site of supposedly public domain rap lyrics. While there were many which used expletives up the kazoo and many whihc had violence, they were ALL expressing anger at how awful life is for them in the ghettoes. It seems the only way they can get their rage out. I'd rather they sing it than act it. One I found, Buddha Monk, had a lot of lyrics wiht anger and killing mentioned, but they moslty were telling people to stop killing each other. Among those, he had a real gem, part of which follows, just to show that it is NOT all about violence and hatred: Buddha Mon, from the album The Prophecy, song titled Dedicated:
I was only nine years old, when daddy left me
[Chorus x2:
This goes out to a special lady Kat here, again, After reading a lot of the lyrics, I have decided that rap definitely can qualify as folk. It is like a protest song, ratcheted up quite a bit and without the niceties of flower, peace, and love, because these kids don't have any of those, nor the luxury of contemplating a world with those things. And, as this appeals to sub-yuppie children, too, I have to conclude there are a LOT of young people, in general, who feel pretty hopeless and disenfranchised these days, with no support or direction from the adults as a societal whole. I am not saying this excuses any of the violence, nor do I exonerate video games and tv; actiually I would say that rap expresses the result of too much of both of those and the neglect of children in our culture as a whole. I will be starting what I consider to be a relevant thread about the Southern Initiative which is pushing for display of the Confederate flag. In a time when we are supposed to be progressing, maybe these kids wonder how in the hell that can happen with adults with agendas like the ones I found at the SI website. katfeelingpretyopinionatedtoday |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 Nov 99 - 10:48 PM Yah Cat, rap certainly can qualify as folk, as long as your definition is even somewhat broad. I know the implicit violence is there in a lot of it, but that in itself shouldn't have anything to do with it's being "folk" or not. A question though. If you don't see rap as folk music, what IS contemporary black folk music, or traditional for that matter? I know that Bill questions Bo Diddly's mention on Mudcat (I assume for not being folk OR blues) but I can't for the life of me see how Bo was not a VERY important transitional figure. Now Carly Simon? Oops that's another thread! By the way Cat, I think thosp, may just have been making a joke (pretty good one too) about "Urbane" Urban black music. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: thosp Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:22 PM thanks Rick! i'm glad you appreciated it. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:26 PM No problem Thosp. I knew from my first couple of days on Mudcat to watch for the puns! Now Kat, Don't HIT me! It was still a great explanation! Oh Jeez am I in trouble! Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: katlaughing Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:29 PM Naw! I AM! Thosp, I am sorry, I should've known better. Couldn't see the tongue in your cheek, I guess. Glad Fielding FINALLY spelled my name with a "K" in that last bit! Gotta go find me a Bo Diddly, now. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Lonesome EJ Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:33 PM You know what would be fun? How about taking a popular rap song,say,911 is a Joke by Public Enemy, and we analyze it in the forum. I suggest that one, because it's one of the most popular rap songs of the nineties. That way we could discuss things like "is this folk" and "does this have redeeming social value" more meaningfully. Any takers? |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: thosp Date: 16 Nov 99 - 11:52 PM no problem Kat! |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:50 AM LEAVE ME OUT OF IT! I'M BACK TO LISTENING TO RACHMANINOV AND THE DELMORE BROTHERS! (to any newbies..this is not a current rap band!) Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: katlaughing Date: 17 Nov 99 - 12:59 AM You start it, LeeJ and they will follow! I'm game, you know THAT! Rachi, Rickie??? For headaches??? Give me Rimsy-Korsakov, or Mozart anyday over Rachi-schmaltzy!*g* Thanks, thosp. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Nov 99 - 01:38 AM LOve Rimsky, Hate Korsakov. But are they "folk"? Small joke. No reply needed. (don't wanna clog the thread) Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Steve Latimer Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:17 AM Sunday Morning gonna wake up crazy, grab my gun, shoot my baby, nobodies business but mine, Monday morning gonna wake up boozy, grab my gun, shoot little Susie, Nobodies business but mine. These pleasant lyrics are just the first ones that popped into my head from that notorious rapper Mississippi John Hurt. This is a folk and blues site, many of the most celebrated songs in both categories are extremely violent. Let's watch who's calling the kettle black. |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: WyoWoman Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:22 AM Thank you kindly, Mr. Latimer. I agree. ww |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:46 AM Thank you kindly Mr. Latimer, I agree with Ms. Woman's agreement. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Steve Latimer Date: 17 Nov 99 - 10:50 AM You're both welcome. By the way, Rap is not folk. (kidding) |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Vixen Date: 17 Nov 99 - 11:05 AM D'Cats-- There have been some really thoughtful and intelligent points raised here. I agree with many, if not all, of them. The only thing I *really* object to about rap is something Lamarca mentioned, and that is the "stars" who are churning out violent music simply to make more money for themselves. If they were turning the profits from their violent music to helping people get out of the cycle of violence, I'd give them more credibility. By taking the money and running, in my mind, they've switched from being part of the solution to being part of the problem. This idea has nothing to do with the folk/non-folk question, nor does it address the issues of general musical merit. It does sort of get into the (gasp) intellectual property issue and the profit motive, and the state of the arts (and therefore humanity) in a capitalist economy. LONG LIVE THREAD CREEP!! V (who doesn't like what communism does for art and humanity either!) |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Rick Fielding Date: 17 Nov 99 - 04:01 PM Dear Vixen, how I agree with you. I'm afraid that greed knows no bounds. Can you imagine how much good could be done if rap superstars and company owners took say a hundred grand a year to live on and threw the rest into the inner cities? My God that would be a revolution! If they said to the Govt. Screw you honky, now just watch what we're going to do to help OUR people. Won't happen of course, cause the only people they have at that level are other fabulously wealthy music industry peers. Sad. Rick |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Bert Date: 17 Nov 99 - 04:41 PM Rick, One of the reasons that some people GET wealty is because they DON'T do that. BTW, I hope that every Mudcatter has listened to Vance Gilbert's "Country and Western Rap". |
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Subject: RE: 3 days of urban black music From: Caitrin Date: 17 Nov 99 - 07:31 PM I'll come in with a third agreement for Steve. Vixen, your point also has significant merit. Virtually anything that makes a great deal of money, from music to sports, turns into being only about money. The worst thing is that we're raised to be like that. People are taught from the time they are born that money is extremely important, and it is important. However, a lot of people begin to let it run their lives, and having a lot of it goes straight to their heads. |
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