BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?

Subject: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM

Arabnews sources reporting the rest of the war, ie the bits the western media does not, show a barbaric slaughter of underarmed resistance and civilians, eg unopposed air butchery, Abrahams Tanks butchering rifle armed Iraqi militia.

A coward, low though he be, is a saint in such company! Not since the end of Vietnam or the last days of Hitler have such barbaric acts been done and with no fear of justice to follow.

Worse the Iraqis not welcoming either Brit or US forces instead organise a war of resistance similar to that fought in the Benelux countries against the Nazi occupation.

Should they get the help, almost inevitable in this David and Goliath confrontation, what should we the folks with the vote now do? Impeach? demand resignations?

Even more troubling, Al Qaida now says that Islam must remove the Dictators of Pakistan ( Nulcear Power ), Saudi and several other major players. Are we witnessing the start of the war that will make what came before into incidents, complete with Nukes international mayhem, and ever little score that has festered for decades now being settled. China, N Korea, N Ireland, Palestine, Tibet, Armenia etc etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 02:08 PM

Rifle-armed militia are willing combatants. While it may not be particularly "honorable" to gun them down, it is well within the bounds of warfare.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM

Soref, I think you are referring to the Abrams tanks. And I suggest you try to get a balanced view from all sources before waving your arms. The war is ugly enough without any distortion.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:31 PM

Sorefingers

   One weapon wielding militia man can carry enough thermite, C-4, gelignite, TNT, Dynamite, Black Powder, or gasoline to stop a tank and injure or kill the crew.

   The butchery you are talking about on a soldier to soldier basis can only be blamed on a lack of better training and better tools.

   The coalition doen't excecute POW's or shoot people under the flag of surrender. That appears to be a tactic used by some Iraqis and learned from Hitler, the North Koreans, The Huks, The Mau Mau, Panch Villa, and some union busting Pinkerton types.

    I think you will have to go back to the time of Osceola and other individual Indian battles to find American soldiers who violated a white flag. Proving that at one time an Army, who valued honor and bravery above all else, could still have dishonorable men at all levels of enlistment.
   
   I don't know about Viet Nam, I never served. But I'll bet you can find people who also never served who will be willing to tell you that we violate white flags every chance we get.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:34 PM

"....well within the bounds of warfare."

All that phrase does is make what they were doing legally allowable, not moral, not ethical, not fair, not decent.

And on that topic, would anyone like to comment on depleted uranium shells and cluster bombs?

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: duuuude
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 04:35 PM

Say what you will, but just reading about the 150+ children who were just released from a prison in Baghdad is all the vindication I need for getting the job done.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 05:39 PM

duuude, I absolutely agree that the job needed to be done! No argument at all.

My argument is with HOW it's being done. One of those released kids may well step on an unexploded cluster bomblet any time in his/her lifetime. About 16 percent of them don't explode on impact, and remain as virtual land mines.

I don't think the US, with all its might and power, really needed to use depleted uranium and cluster bombs to subdue a third world country.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 08 Apr 03 - 08:07 PM

whats legally allowable in a war,
feigning surrender and then attacking? hiding in schools, hospitals, mosques
dressing up as women, suicide bombing, executing pows? or did those
soldiers just happen to get shot in the forehead.
using civilians as shields?
check the aljazeera website, it shows a disabled abrams tank in baghdad
the silly minister of defense bragging about slaughtering the americans and beating them off, (all the while statues of saddam fall him)
(Idont care much for CNN coverage either, cause everytime they break
for a commercial, its for a car - usually racing alone down some country road
with no other cars in sight)

2million Iraqis died under Saddam, where was the outrage from aljazeera,
or the arab world, where was the outrage about the gassing of the kurds,
the torture, the plastic grinding machines.they dropped people in.


These people see saddam as a hero.
Lets face it, theyre ignorant, and have been for a long time,
and aljazeera is there now giving them what they want. Trouble is,
most of whats wrong with the mideast is not caused by the west, its their problem. They see the west as improving all the time and feel left behind,
- except their govts are riddled with corruption, women are still second class citizens ( eg I have a donkey, 3 goats, 2 sheep and a wife.)
in Saudi Arabia, the skilled technical work is done by westerners, and the grunt dirty work is done by people from third world countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Troll
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:05 AM

petr, how can you say that. Don't you know that the US is to blame for all the worlds troubles?
All that stuff about the CoalitionForces tahing the Baghdad..oops...Saddam Hussein Airport is just so much Hollywood props? It must be true.
"Baghdad Bob" said so and al Jezeera broadcast it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 01:29 AM

in Saudi Arabia, the skilled technical work is done by westerners, and the grunt dirty work is done by people from third world countries.

There certainly isn't any shortage of skilled, educated people from Middle Eastern countries. So if an inequity of this sort exists, I find myself wondering if it is because of a policy of the repressive Saudi Arabian regime. A regime that is in power because of its being propped up by the US as a part of its effort to secure US oil interests in the Middle East.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:28 AM

I am shocked by the bigotry displayed by some...

What I don't understand is why it is OK to kill, in acts of agression, a brainwashed people on their own soil. Saddam threatened them with death for non compliance, and we go in and kill thousands of them, like its a teen arcade video game... and who knows how many civilians have been killed... I'm sorry, but I don't feel that the death of the innocent is justified.

The displacemment of many tens (many hundreds, really) of thousands of people and the destruction of their society is barbaric... and dangerously close to the type of behavior we expect of their malevolent dictator Saddam.

Would someone please tell me how this bloody outrage is conscientious?

Missing the thoughtful words of the well spoken Hans Blixt, ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:28 AM

The aim of killing the head of another state (what ever we think of him or her) and the invasion of a country and the killing it's of citizens because we don't like what they do, seems to have to have been legitimised and validated by some people. I can't agree with them, but following that philosophy through, then any United States citizen and particularly the President are now fair game in most parts of the would.
Now a question. Can anyone validate and explain right wing Christian
values. Seems to me the long haired guy and the guy that read the tablets on the mount wouldn't be at all impressed with right wing ideals. I guess you are either one or the other. Can't be both and not be hypocritcal.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: DougR
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 02:31 AM

Sorefingers: Arabnews reported! Shock! Surprise! Wow!

DougR

Subject: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:33 AM

Ohh kay.. now the news shows Iraqis looting and welcoming the US and Brits when they find Saddam is no longer there to kill them ...

Still the whole thing sets a very dangerous precedent, and I feel all the more motivated to object to the NEEDLESS SLAUGHTER which we have here found by watching Arabnews sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Grab
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 07:41 AM

Petr, I'm not an al-Jezeera viewer, being as (a) I'm the wrong national/religious group, (b) I've got no satellite, and (c) I've got no TV. ;-) However I believe al-Jezeera did actually protest Saddam's treatment of his people. Early on, al-Jezeera had several of their reporters kicked out of Iraq by Saddam because they tried to report honestly on Iraqi casualties. They're as much biased towards the Arab view as CNN and co are biased towards the Western view - consider this as a different political viewpoint in the same way as different newspapers have different political angles.

Sorefingers and pdc's posts are ridiculous though. If it's got a rifle and it's firing at US/UK soldiers, then it knows the risk it's taking. The aim of any soldier is not to be sportsmanlike and give them a decent chance of killing you, the aim is for you to stay alive and to kill anyone who shoots at you. Or would it be "fair" to deprive the US/UK soldiers of their armoured vehicles so that more of them get killed?

Please don't forget that the army and secret police are tightly linked to Saddam's regime, so they're taking these suicidal risks and getting slaughtered because even that is preferable to being ripped apart by a mob when that mob realises they don't have to be afraid any more. A sensible soldier would surrender when outnumbered and outgunned so radically, but they don't dare surrender because they know what'll happen to them when they do - at best they're all looking at long years in jail. Basically, they're screwed either way. I for one have no sympathy for them. I have sympathy for the few weak-willed people who genuinely do support Saddam, but I can't see them being in the majority.

And Iraqis are starting to welcome the US/UK troops. The reason they didn't shout and cheer earlier is that they shouted and cheered in 1991, the US/UK pulled out and the people were massacred. Also remember that there are still elements of Saddam's army/police around who can shoot you in secret, and that you could get shot by accident by a nervous or just off-target coalition soldier (which has happened many times so far). Do you blame the Iraqi civilians for keeping their heads down until the dust settles?

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:08 AM

One-on-one combat, except under unusual circumstances, went out years ago. Even the bayonet, that symbol of man-to-man, has been shortened since WWI; in WWII many were literally cut off short and ground down to a more useful size. Yeah, bayonet is still taught, but it and all other hand-to-hand combat is desperation stuff today.

There was an article in the local paper last night about a non-Iraqi volunteer weeping, crying that US troops are cowards because the fight in tanks and planes and "won't come out and fight like men." He was taken after he emptied 10 magazines of an AK47 at American troops in armored personnel carriers; his legs were taken off by a shell blast, and the US medics are currently patching him up in the hospital where he was interviewed.

I suspect that his tears are really less about a lack of fighting and more about being lied to, lied to about everything and then given a rifle and ammo and sent off to die.

Raw courage doesn't stand up to flechette rounds.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:42 AM

Who are the butchers ?

Click 'Ere

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:22 AM

There are times when I despair of the human condition.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:37 AM

SO do most of the human race, PDC. Somehow we carry on trying to solve the puzzle, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 11:48 AM

Just another silly alliteration with B's:

British blame Baath in Basra

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:35 PM

Two butchers or three what difference does it make Gareth? they all still are as bad as each other!

Reading the BBC's report on the Saddam torture center reminded me of the now almost forgotten British version in Norn Ireland, which BTW I do not recall being liberated by anybody, and most certainly not by the Fundie G W Bush; morelikely he would soon be wearing the Sash himself and joining in at Drumcree, but that is OC another day's work.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 04:54 PM

Sounds like something from "Animal Farm" viz

"Saddam Good"
"Bush & Blair Bad"

Sorefingers - Do you mean the accurate version of Ulsters History, or the I R A's version ?

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 09:54 PM

Saddam... Sadistic Stalinist Stand-in... Stuck up, and Striking out
Bush and Blair... Brothers in Brutal Brandishment of Benign Beliefs

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:20 PM

Gareth-By "accurate" do you mean the official British history, or the militant Ulstermen's version?

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Gareth
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:22 PM

No I mean the objective H M Government version.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:28 PM

If you want a sample of the butchery in Baghdad, let me offer you this description by one who has been through some of it.

Just a small slice.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM

Gareth-What does H M mean, and why are they any more objective than the rest of the groups mentioned?

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:46 PM

FL:

His/Her Majesty -- the notional head of the British government, armed forces and all British ships at sea...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 09 Apr 03 - 10:55 PM

Thank you, Amos. I still don't see why Gareth considers that objective, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:13 AM

Gareth, though he was a mudering madman more disgusting than any who now compete for the title, 'Butcher of Bagdad', by now I suspect Mr Saddam is very dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 12:56 AM

But, sorefingers, you COULD be wrong!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Gareth
Date: 10 Apr 03 - 04:37 AM

Which would be a pity as it would deprive the Iranian people of the chance to judge him fairly.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: leprechaun
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 02:46 AM

I'm just hoping this war can be mostly over by Christmas, then the economy can experience any kind of upturn, however slight, so my hero and Commander-in-Chief, George W. Bush, can win by a landslide! Then he'll get to work on hydrogen power, and putting those pissant North Koreans in their place.

God bless all the Bush family!

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 09:27 AM

Well, I dunno' about the whole family, but I sure want to wish the best for the part of it that makes them beans! Damn fine baked beans....especially the ones with the maple flavor!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Den
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 11:01 AM

"No I mean the objective H M Government version".

Brilliant, I needed a laugh. Thanks Gareth. The objective HM Government version on the history of N.Ireland, now that has got to be the oxymoron of the year...still laughing.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 12:13 PM

Hey -- Baghdad Bob now has an official Cult Following!! See this page on CCC's site.

WOnders never cease...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 02:16 PM

I'm just hoping this war can be mostly over by Christmas, then the economy can experience any kind of upturn, however slight, so my hero and Commander-in-Chief, George W. Bush, can win by a landslide!

No such luck, leprechaun. We've still got Syria and Iran to overthrow (or "roll back" as the case may be), and your man seems to be entertaining the possibility of lobbing some nukes at N. Korea. Didn't you hear the news? We're in a permanent state of war now.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: leprechaun
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 03:43 PM

Didn't you hear the news? We always have been. I'm going down the the elections bureau right now to change my voter registration to Republican so I can vote for him in the primary also.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 05:20 PM

Far be it for me to disagree with you, leprechaun. Just didn't want you to get your hopes up too much about the war being over (or even "mostly over") by Christmas. It's soooo disappointing to not get your hopes fulfilled at Christmastime.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 06:31 PM

Dim Pong Vile eagerly awaits Donald and Dick in N Korea, says he will repeat the dictator's creed till they submit. Later they can rest in Pakistan where that Dictator will ignore them.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Apr 03 - 06:48 PM

Hey sorefingers! That dictator in Pakistan is one of our guys! Don't be dissin' our guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 01:11 AM

Sorefingers: if you are relying on the Arabic press and television to supply you with the war news, I can understand your distorted view.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Gareth
Date: 12 Apr 03 - 07:54 PM

Hey CarolC - What is you evidence to substantiate your allegations that the Pakistani Government out "Our Guys" ?????

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 12:43 AM

Pervez Musharraf been helping us in our War on Terrorism. His help has been of utmost importance to our efforts in Pakistan. His help was extremely valuable to our efforts in Afghanistan as well. And he's been walking quite a razor's edge trying to help us track down terrorists in his country while risking the wrath of his people, many of whom hate the US. I know this because I live here in the US. But I can find substantiation if needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 12:47 AM

By "us", I was referring to the US. I have no idea whether or not the UK should be included in that statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 05:13 PM

Here's a little bit of documentation:

Click

Musharraf's offer to help the United States is considered key because Pakistan borders Afghanistan and has extensive intelligence on that country's Taliban rulers. However, the Pakistani government's support for Washington has stirred intense opposition at home from anti-American Muslim militants.

Click

TUESDAY OCT 9

-- Three anti-U.S. protesters shot dead by Pakistani police in the town of Kuchlak near the Afghan border.

Click

US Accepts India, Pakistan as Nuclear Powers - Papers

September 25, 2001
By REUTERS
http://www.nytimes.com/reuters/world/international-attack-india-sanctions.html?searchpv=reuters

NEW DELHI (Reuters) - The U.S. decision to lift sanctions on India and Pakistan effectively recognizes the two foes as members of the nuclear club and was driven by self-interest, Indian newspapers said on Tuesday.

President Bush said the sanctions, imposed on the two neighbors after they conducted tit-for-tat nuclear tests in 1998, were no longer in the U.S. national security interest in wake of the deadly air attacks in Washington and New York.

The sanctions were lifted after India and Pakistan pledged to cooperate in Bush's war against terrorism.

"The U.S. is no longer interested in hair-splitting about the nuclear order but about combating the menace of terrorism", the Hindustan Times said in an editorial. "It means the status of India and Pakistan as nascent nuclear powers has been recognized."

The U.S. move to lift sanctions on India had been on the cards amid increasingly warm ties between the two countries which were on opposite sides during the Cold War.

But Washington had given no such signals to Pakistan which it had cold-shouldered, especially since the military coup that brought President Pervez Musharraf to power in 1999.

"When it comes to self-interest, the U.S. will do anything...with breathtaking speed, call it opportunism, call it flexibility", the Times of India said in an editorial.

"The rapidity of the decision now to remove all nuclear-related sanctions against Pakistan...shows how Washington's war against terrorism is rearranging its policy priorities in South Asia", the Indian Express added.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 11:28 PM

They have to keep a large army in Afghanistan, see British Occupation and it's reasoning: similar if today we might think a rogue Nukepower more threatening than an army equipped with elephants.

Yup I am saying the US is stuck there for ever, and they will suffer the same fate as the Brits.

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 11:35 PM

I'll not disagree with you on that point, sorefingers. And my earlier post directed at you was somewhat tongue in cheek ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Butchers of Bagdad, Blair and Bush?
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Apr 03 - 11:36 PM

Oops!!

That last from Jack the Sailor was really me. Sorry about that!