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BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way?
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Mrrzy Date: 20 Apr 21 - 05:44 PM Well good |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Apr 21 - 06:36 PM And today is only Tuesday. They may have packed for a long stay in the sequester hotel, but the jury took care of business quickly. Hopefully this is the end of it; no need for the national guard anywhere. Just over. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Apr 21 - 07:12 PM I'm bothered by the fact that the jury did not have to consider whether the killing was intentional. I have a feeling that if that had been on the charge sheet the jury might have had more difficulty. There's been much talk of forty years. I hope that that doesn't drive towards a sentence that is too severe. As first-degree murder was not considered, a too-severe sentence is entirely possible. Justice will be done not by putting a man away for forty years for a killing not proven to have been intentional. It will be served by a massive effort to rid your police of what looks, from this distance, to be its rotten culture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Jeri Date: 20 Apr 21 - 07:46 PM It sounded like something changed while Chauvin's knee was on Floyds neck, and people (bystanders, and at least one cop) were telling him to stop, and Floyd said he couldn't breathe. I think he decided to push it until Floyd died. I think he KNEW he was killing Floyd. I think that when it was reported Floyd had no pulse, and Chauvin failed to do CPR on him as he was trained to do, he wanted Floyd to be dead. But my belief doesn't matter. I also think 40 years isn't too much. In my opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Helen Date: 20 Apr 21 - 08:03 PM Scroll down this page to see the following explanation of the three charges: How the three charges work "But basically, the charges all covered different legal definitions of what happened in the murder of George Floyd. They didn't work in an escalating way, like there were backups if the most serious ones failed. It was always possible that Chauvin could have been found guilty of all, some or none of the charges. "As this CNN breakdown explains, , where the charges differed was how they interpreted Chauvin's state of mind at the time of the murder. "The third-degree murder charge alleged that Chauvin had a "depraved mind, without regard for human life". The second-degree unintentional murder charge asked the jury to consider that Chauvin killed Floyd while trying to apply unlawful force to him (they didn't have to consider whether Chauvin intended to kill Floyd). And the second-degree manslaughter charge alleged that Chauvin caused Floyd's death through "culpable negligence", by not doing things like putting Floyd in the recovery position or providing medical care for Floyd before paramedics arrived." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Steve Shaw Date: 20 Apr 21 - 08:06 PM Well we can all have opinions about that horrid nine minutes, but I can only go from what the jury was asked to consider. First-degree murder was not on the charge sheet, and the strongest charge was unintentional second-degree murder. I worry that the talked-up expectation of forty years, if not met, will lead to unrest. Alternatively, that a too-severe sentence may be given under some pressure because of that talking-up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 20 Apr 21 - 09:20 PM He can rot in hell. There is every possibility that the sentence might be too light - I don't think one can be too long. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Apr 21 - 12:30 AM It's blatantly obvious this cop is at very least a sadist. Karma = he'll need eyes in the back of his head in prison.. Even if white supremacist gang inmate fanboys, impressed by his celebrity notoriety, rally round as his bodyguards... ----------------------------------------------------------------------- If he hadn't been a cop, but just a street bully thug armed with a gun: would concerned bystanders have been legally justified to shoot him in order to save Floyd's life...??? ,, or at least rush from all sides and render him 'neutrakized' with any improvised weapons at hand...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Sandra in Sydney Date: 21 Apr 21 - 05:47 AM Meanwhile in Australia a (right wing) state Police Minister tells a TV show “We don’t have a race problem here in Australia” when there are stories about (Australian) Black Deaths in Custody all over the news & they have been there for decades. 30 years ago a Royal Commission concerning 99 Black Deaths in Custody made recommendations, most of these have not been acted on. Families, politicians say not enough has changed 30 years on 450 more people have died in custody across Australia since. Indigenous Australians are about 3% of the population & make up about 27% of prison populations. Many deaths come about because the prisoner didn't get medical help in time or at all. Said Police Minister was objecting to "left-wing teachers out there acting racist themselves by saying white lives don’t matter" read on What the George Floyd verdict means for Australia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Donuel Date: 21 Apr 21 - 07:18 AM when somthing goes right I'ts bouund to confuse me its such an unusual sight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Donuel Date: 21 Apr 21 - 07:26 AM Intentionality is part of what the jury had to decide on 2nd segree murder asI have been saying for weeks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Apr 21 - 10:12 AM Yes, it is. From an online article: Here are the three charges Derek Chauvin was found guilty on and the maximum sentences for each :
What happens next with sentencing? Who makes the final call? Since the verdict has been read by Judge Cahill, it will now head to sentencing. Prosecutors with the state are asking for a longer sentence, known as an "upward sentencing departure" due to "aggravating factors". Those factors include :
Minnesota uses sentencing guidelines, which means that for someone with no prior convictions like Chauvin, the recommendation is only 12.5 years for each murder charge, as well as four years for manslaughter. Even though Chauvin is convicted of more than one count, according to Minnesota law, he only serves a sentence for the most severe charge. If Judge Cahill follows the Minnesota state guidelines, Chauvin would serve just that 12.5-year sentence. Prosecutors in the case are seeking a longer sentence than the 12.5 years, referencing those "aggravated factors" mentioned above. But it's up to Judge Cahill to decide if those factors exist, and if he will go above the state recommended guidelines. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Apr 21 - 10:32 AM You deleted my post which corrected an inaccuracy in a polite manner, then perpetuate the same inaccuracy yourself. This is not my opinion, so let me quote from Star Tribune: Chauvin faces three charges: second-degree unintentional murder, third-degree murder and second-degree manslaughter. Here's what you need to know about the charges and what prosecutors must prove in order to convict Chauvin. What is second-degree unintentional murder? For a conviction of second-degree unintentional murder, the state's prosecutors must show beyond a reasonable doubt that Chauvin caused Floyd's death while assaulting him. This is the most serious charge and carries a presumed sentence in this case of 12 1/2 years, according to state sentencing guidelines. However, prosecutors have said they plan to seek an aggravated sentence for Chauvin above recommended guidelines because of the "particular cruelty" shown to Floyd. What will not be an issue: whether Chauvin intended to kill Floyd. None of the charges require prosecutors to prove the former officer was trying to kill him. We've had several visceral reactions in this thread to the horror perpetrated by Chauvin. It could be that I share those reactions myself but I have simply stated what the court's remit was - and what it wasn't. There are plenty of sources which will corroborate my assertion that the intention to kill was not tested in the court, not even apropos of the most serious of the three charges. Please check them out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Apr 21 - 12:03 PM I've not been following the intricacies of the was it or was it not intentional debate, Even if it legally mattered in securing conviction. What my eyes and humanity tells me, is that cop looked for all practical purposes like a sadistic bully. Almost like a great white hunter proudly dispatching his fatally wounded magnificent powerful big game trophy animal.. My subjective analysis is he continued restraining and tormenting Floyd just to spite the concerned and distress onlookers. The more they pleaded, the longer he continued brutalising his victim. Just to show the audience he was the boss in control. He has all the power they have none. Turns out he got that badly wrong... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: meself Date: 21 Apr 21 - 12:16 PM 12.5 years in prison is not 40 years - but it's not a slap on the wrist, either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Backwoodsman Date: 21 Apr 21 - 12:19 PM I think you’re right on the button, pfr. The word for his behaviour and entire demeanour during the fatal nine minutes is ‘Showboating’. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Steve Shaw Date: 21 Apr 21 - 12:43 PM It sounds like you're describing brutal, first-degree murder. I'm not saying you're wrong. I was as revolted as you were by what I saw. But that wasn't on the charge sheet. Either wiser heads thought that it wasn't that, or it wasn't the charge because it was considered that jury members might well have had an issue with it. We can continue to speculate as to whether the policeman wanted to kill him or whether he was blinded by his own adrenalin and anger and lost control, etc. It was discussed in court, of course it was. But it wasn't going to come to a conclusion because it wasn't the remit of the court to decide whether he intended to kill him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Apr 21 - 02:09 PM The real problem is they're all armed to the teeth. I think given what's happened, Biden should explain to us how he would arrest a six foot seven ex- armed robber, ex-drug dealer who had just flagrantly passed a counterfeit currency. yes I know - could happen to anyone.... i'm not sure I'd get it right. I don't know why all these other people have such confidence in their abilities that they could accomplish the task without bloodshed. Per haps Biden should tell us how much he reckoned he should be paid for the job. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Apr 21 - 02:23 PM Why don't you explain WHY you would arrest someone for an event that normally would simply result in the confiscation of the false bill and that is the end of it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Apr 21 - 02:45 PM Since January I've been staying away from home comforts and computers, too preocupied with house sitting and clearing out a family mansion [ok, big council house].. So not had much time for the details of this case. Did I hear right many weeks ago, that the cop and his victim knew and had prior personal antagonisms with each other...??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Apr 21 - 04:22 PM Yes. But it doesn't seem to have featured in the prosecution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Donuel Date: 21 Apr 21 - 04:33 PM pfr, Chauvin moonlighted by having done security for cup foods. Supposedly George also had a security position at cup foods but how often either worked or if they knew each other is unknown to me. Incontravertable evidence is best. Prosecution avoided all irrelevant speculation it could not prove. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Apr 21 - 04:52 PM I don't think you're right. From all the police procedurals, I think at very least they would question the suspect in the back of the police car. if I get stopped for a driving infringement - that always happens. And with something where a known felon was passing dud money - I think they they would be bound to search the car - only sensible, in case he had a couple of million more false bills in the back. I think everybody in this country wanted Biden to win the election. i'm sure I did. I don't approve of politicians showboating by commenting on law and order. I hope Biden doesn't disappoint. America needs a break. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: ripov Date: 21 Apr 21 - 05:59 PM Senoufou-regarding judgements people make based on colour- my youngest son metand married a lovely lady from Kenya, during a visit to her home town,they went to the local market, where after an altercation my daughter-in -law replied to the trader(Ithink she probaably translated outof decency "he's not a white man he's my husband!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 21 Apr 21 - 07:30 PM Big Al, you watch too much TV. The Congresswoman who made those remarks is a black woman who has been very active in social justice issues. "Showboating" is subject to opinion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 21 Apr 21 - 08:45 PM The thing is SRS - everybody is making those remarks. I think there's a sort of unanimity which is a bit scary. all I'm saying is I wouldn't have wanted that cop's job that day, and I don't hear many people who understand what its like making an arrest. My Dad was a cop. Sometimes things can go very wrong, when they do - its a tough spot to be in - you have to make decisions. Sometimes you get it very wrong, but it often hinges on a decision you make in a very fraught situation. Mostly no one dies but sometimes they do. Even in merrie England. what I am certain of is that those decisions but must ten times more difficult when all members of the public have access to fire arms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: meself Date: 21 Apr 21 - 09:35 PM This one, though, was not one of those split-second decisions in a stressful situation - and there were no firearms involved explicitly. Did you watch the video, Al? I didn't intend to, but caught up in the trial, and finally did .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 21 Apr 21 - 11:32 PM Al - the prosecution presented a timeline of video evidence, from many different sources and angles, leading up to the arrest and death. That was one part of the trial I did watch, because I'd knocked off clearing out the attic for a 10-minute tea and hot pastie break, but then got engrossed in the live news coverage for an hour or more. Last summer, like many folk I also started off with the the cynical opinion that Floyd was probably a bad 'un, who was violently resisting arrest and caused his own death by hard-working stressed cop. But it soon enough became apparent that although in his life he was no angel, on that fateful day Floyd was hardly the nasty villain our right wing British press were falsely depicting him as; in order to undermine the progressive principles of the BLM cause. In the videos he came over as a dopey big lump. Happily stoned and as affable as could be. You've gigged in enough pubs to recognise the difference between a gentle giant happy friendly drunk, and smaller aggressive 'little Napoleon complex' arseholes, throwing their weight around starting fights trying to prove they are the big men to be feared. That's what any reasonable witness would, and did, make of all those phone cam, body camera, and CCTV video clips.. We are not talking about a friendly village Bobby on the beat, overwhelmed by trying to arrest a big city criminal 'county-lines' violent drug dealing knife man. Which has sadly become more of a reality in provincial West country towns like we live in. Increasingly violent drug gang stabbings the mail and express thrive on for headlines.. My personal default position is to respect our British police. Because when they occasionally knock on our town centre front door asking for witness statements regarding violent crimes on our street, I don't know if they are good or bad cop. Whichever, they are just doing a difficult job; and there's no harm being polite to them.. So Al, please don't think that reacting in favour of Floyd's callous cold killer getting banged up for life, necessitates being anti police in general... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Neil D Date: 22 Apr 21 - 12:11 AM fpr, you asked: Did I hear right many weeks ago, that the cop and his victim knew and had prior personal antagonisms with each other...??? The two both worked security at a club and a day or two after the Floyd killing, a third person who worked at the same club came out with the story of them having a beef with each other. However, this man quickly recanted the story, saying he had confused Chauvin with another employee. There is actually no evidence that they ever interacted on that job. Someone from management did say that Chauvin was not very good at security. He did not know how to de-escalate situations, which is always the first thing any bouncer should attempt. It was said that he often seemed nervous and quick to call for assistance, especially when dealing with people of color. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Apr 21 - 05:48 AM Prison sentences in the US are grotesquely higher than in other countries, and so is the rate of incarceration. The Constitution talks of "cruel and unusual" punishments being forbidden, but, as with capital punishment, this appears to be ignored in practice. Or rather interpreted as meaning "unusual" within the bounds of the United States, rather than within the civilised (and for that matter the less civilised) world. The worrying thing in relation to this is that if the sentence given to Chauvin is less than the maximum possible, 40 years, this is likely to be seen by many people as him not getting what his crime deserved. And yet in any other country in the world 40 years in prison would be viewed as excessive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Apr 21 - 05:59 AM Those are my thoughts too. Talking up the 40-years thing looks very unwise to me. If he gets 40 years, we'll never know now whether it was imposed after taking all the factors into account in the measured pursuit of real justice or whether it was imposed for fear of a backlash if he got any less. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Apr 21 - 07:04 AM It occurs to me that a crucial, and pretty well unique, aspect of this case, and one which ensured a rapid guilty verdict, was that the existence of the video record meant that the jury were in effect eye witnesses of what happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 22 Apr 21 - 07:38 AM My wife is one of those sweet innocent mature ladies, who is obsessed with murders.. Think of a notorious murder case and she's probably read the the books and watched the documentaries and TV dramatisations.. This means I've watched enough documentaries with her, to be well aware of how arbitrarily unfair and brutal American prison sentencing is.. Plea bargaining deals can seem almost incomprehensible to us Brits. Exerting extreme pressure on apparently innocent defendants to plead guilty and go to jail, just to avoid even harsher punishments if they go to trial in front of unsympathetic juries. I could go as far as suggesting how class biased and racist USA juries seem to British eyes. Yet this is the accepted norm in America.. Cops without guns shouldn't be the only thing us Brits are grateful for... There's one long-running series which shows in-court video highlights of attempted prisoner escapes, fights, and appallingly behaved petty childish lawyers and judges.. Occasionally the worst of 'em get sacked.. .. by comparison, it makes a lot of our stereotype old-fashioned bigoted bastard provincial magistrates look like kind hearted angels.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Donuel Date: 22 Apr 21 - 08:07 AM Humans have long practiced human sacrifice, only the motivations have changed. How many other species do this I don't know. Today the state provides a license to kill provisionally. Split second murder decisions do not even allow for the forebrain to have a conscious say. But a murder that takes over nine minutes in front of a nine year old is more than most civilized people can accept as justified. Such deliberate action with forethought is a definition of murder. *So is war* but the state can declare such murder to be legal. Law has made allowances for self defense. Some of you have experienced having to choose to use lethal force in self defense or not. Lets hope you chose correctly. The subject of murder defines a culture imo. In the US for example, lynching is not a federal crime. Murder is both a state and personal decision. I hope we choose wisely. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Apr 21 - 12:06 PM Its one of those jobs. You're meeting folks at their worst and frequently their lowest point in their lives. My Dad wasn't a village bobby - he was CID. Ex St helens ruby payer, ex Irish Guardsman tank driver - he was as tough as I'm soft. He never spoke much about the job, but my Mum told me he always thought he'd got it wrong and killed someone. He was arresting a paedophile and spoke harsh words to him. The guy drowned himself. I tell you a weird story. I wqas never really posh enough for folk clubs. I splashed about in the shallows of showbiz - and that's how I met the comedian Tich Cooper, a Grantham lad - he's still gigging 12 months a year in Teneriffe. Tich had been ambulance driver -picking up the bodies off the M1 near Nottingham. Great comedian - very employable. One day he told me - Al - you know the weirdest thing about this job is that it doesn't matter. If you're a crap comedian and can't make people laugh, it doesn't matter. it really doesn't. No ones any poorer , any the worse...and yet. People will get SO angry if you're a crap comedian. I've seen people physically attacked because they bombed on stage. Whereas when I was an ambulance man, I saw people who killed the people they were supposed to be caring for - by being too stupid, incompetent, or lazy to do their job. And afterwards , almost inevitably the relations of the deceased would come up and thank them for their work. That's a job where it matters what you do, and how you do it. And the thing is.... I dunno. I 'm not sure there is a point....except moral superiority over people who do these jobs stinks. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: robomatic Date: 22 Apr 21 - 03:14 PM Big Al, points well taken. The government has always been pretty sensitive about passing bad currency, particularly in a day and age where a kid can use a color scanner/printer and one of his friends can attempt to pass a century note at McDonald's! This happened to someone I know and I drove by their house to see at least three police vehicles parked around it. That involved more than just a sit-down in a cruiser. Color of kid was irrelevant (white in this case). I believe that the initial police report of Floyd's death covered up the actual events and it was the video taken by a young onlooker, who was threatened by the policeman with his knee on the neck, that exposed the actual events. Obviously something had to be done. It is very tough to be a good cop, and it seems to me to be a natural instinct to look out for your fellow cop because of shared dangers and exposure to the anger of anybody who is reprimanded or worse. And in the U.S., the cops have guns because, well, everybody's got guns. It's in the Constitution! As for change, the French have a saying that starts Plus ca change... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Donuel Date: 22 Apr 21 - 04:20 PM Having a bad note is a misdemeanor. Making them is a felony. Yet neither offense carries the death penalty. The point with cops is the Culture that treats races differently. I suspect robo's friend was white and was not harmed. Having an expired license plate does not carry the death penalty by cop unless you're black. Having a cracked tail light or lane changing does not carry a death penalty....etc.etc. I saw a black senior citizen shot to death in a McDonalds drive through line. The cop said he suspected a stolen car, an old Pontiac? Even black cops are prone to shoot to kill a black suspect out of training and culture. Its gotten bad these last several hundred years. Its time for a change regarding peoples who were historicly slaves to be given back full human rights. doncha think? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: robomatic Date: 22 Apr 21 - 05:12 PM Okay DonTrumpuel you have combined classic misreading of posts with a virtuosity rant. I know you wait for these at bats. Guess you can tick that box for this thread. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 22 Apr 21 - 06:10 PM Don't you think all the people carrying firearms must make it very scary for cops trying to effect an arrest? Being a cops wife means that you accept your husband that your husband may get killed on his shift. For the husband - theres a sort of unwritten agreement that you will do your best not to leave her a widow. In this case I heard that the cop approached the car . shoved a gun through the window and started calling the shots. If there wasn't an odds on possibility that that someone in the party was armed this was a real escalation from where things would have been in England. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Steve Shaw Date: 22 Apr 21 - 07:41 PM I think that where your argument falls down, Al, is that this was no spur-of-the-moment killing, no panicky misjudgement. That would have been bad enough in a trained police officer, but this guy spent nine whole minutes on Floyd's neck before deciding to back off. It must have been pretty clear to him that his victim had been made safe after just a minute or two. In fact, the longer he persisted, the greater the risk that someone in the crowd would react violently and adversely. Making an arrest knowing that a lot of people could have been armed must be scary, as you say. But your man didn't exactly make it snappy, did he? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Apr 21 - 08:41 PM Surely presenting a forged note for a purchase isn't even a misdemeanour, or any kind of offence in any country, unless there are good reasons to show that you knew it was a fake? Any of us might have quite innocently handed over a forgery sometime. Lots of checkouts routinely test any note just in case. If a shop accepts a forged note, that is a good indication that it was a convincing enough forgery to mean it would be reasonable for the person passing it to claim they believed it was genuine. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Big Al Whittle Date: 23 Apr 21 - 12:08 PM I'm not sure I have an argument Steve. Just an uneasiness about what's just happened. Perhaps I am totally wrong in everything I'm saying. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: robomatic Date: 23 Apr 21 - 03:37 PM I think there is considerable emotional undercurrent that is occurring here and that is what I pick up from big Al's posts, and not only his posts. As for me, I've lived long enough that I feel I've seen all this before. Not only the initial disgusting events, but the considerable amount of posturing and self-righteousness that goes with it, on all sides. If you pick one event and stick to the facts, you can be accused of blindness to the social ills. If you opine on the general poor state of society you can be accused of ignoring the specific injustices that have occurred. If you really want to coax or kick society into improving, you generally get accused of everything by everybody. This is going through my mind not only on the racial issues being discussed in this thread, but equally to the repetitive gun violence in the United States, captured in The Onion headline: ‘No Way To Prevent This,’ Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Helen Date: 23 Apr 21 - 03:51 PM Donuel, I agree with all you said in this post Date: 22 Apr 21 - 04:20 PM but especially this bit: "Its time for a change regarding peoples who were historicly slaves to be given back full human rights. doncha think?" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 23 Apr 21 - 04:22 PM That's a very Libertarian view, robomatic. Everyone has it wrong. Right now we're in a period of heightened political correctness that puts some previous episodes to shame. Opinions expressed publicly that don't completely align with thought leaders are to be shamed and that person driven out of their job and out of existence. Despite this practice, the term "cancel culture" has been adopted by several political groups and is therefore meaningless. This is a drastic case of what Derrida described as the margins writing back to the center. Colonized voices are speaking back to the colonizers. Non-mainstream groups are lecturing the mainstream for being blind and obtuse. White populations are fish being asked to see the water they swim in (and to share it). It's a difficult process and there is overkill, but it needs to happen. I've heard authors interviewed on my local NPR station who discuss the problems of shaming and cancel culture; I meant to pick up one of the books mentioned but have lost track of that note to myself. Political correctness is an issue for White people who are trying to position themselves alongside Black Lives Matter in a way that isn't tone deaf to the issues at hand. In the process we're all throwing stones at each other's glass houses, so people are bound to get hurt. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: robomatic Date: 23 Apr 21 - 10:06 PM Well said. This goes along with a phrase I've used regarding my own musings: "The futility of insight." It's probably related to over-analyzing too much and acting too little for some of us, while many of us are all too willing to take action on literally any kind of information at all. It's never wrong to act with decency and I think most of us have a good idea of what that is. Mark Twain wrote a good example of it when Huck Finn is on the Mississippi sharing a raft with Jim; has an opportunity to turn Jim in as he meets a couple of mounted riders searching for an escaped slave. Everything he's been taught tells him that it is wrong to hide Jim and right to turn him in. But he does not turn him in and he reasons it out for himself. It is a great lesson in morality. The current incarnation of the internet where we are all reacting all the time is putting a social pressure on everything as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Apr 21 - 12:03 AM Well I can't speak for anybody else.. But I believe I have a strong consistently rational sense of personal integrity and morality. I trust my own independent judgement when it comes to balancing objectivity and subjectivity.. That cop done it, we saw him do it, he deserves heavy punishment.. It don't need to be any more complicated than that.. He may be a rare bad apple. Or he is representative of a wider pernicious behavioural culture in his department. That's for official enquiries to determine My personal subjective opinionated observation of his videoed crime, is he looked like the kind of policeman who would have enjoyed collaborating with N@zi occupiers in Eastern Europe.. That is pure, though fairly well informed, intuitive speculation on my part, stemming from over 40 years of personal conjecture on the nature and actions of humanity gone bad... Perhaps it's the quarter Jew in my DNA, some kind of bio radar, which makes me sensitive to identifying such people...??? USA sentence inside more than it's fair share of the bastards |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Apr 21 - 12:07 AM Fukkit, accidentally clumsily posted too soon. Before correcting Google dictate errors. Final sentence should be.. "The USA certainly seems to have more than it's fair share of the bastards...!!!" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: punkfolkrocker Date: 24 Apr 21 - 12:19 AM Google speach recognition can do more effectively in seconds, what decades and centuries of oral transmission can do to bugger up folk song lyrics... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Black Lives Matter - change on the way? From: Donuel Date: 24 Apr 21 - 08:29 AM In NJ some cities have tried police reforms and had a full year of no police killings At the same time some States are going to enact and explore police reform |
