BS: The Bailout

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: heric
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 06:20 PM

I probably shouldn't comment on it, as I didn't see it, but reportedly Dodd said on face the nation that GM CEO Richard Wagoner should be replaced as a condition for federal aid.

This strikes me as more incompetence from the government. Others, including GM, said they didn't interpret it as a pre-condition for federal aid, and they want Wagoner to stay in place. The bailout/loan is supposed to be an emergency bridge loan, to get them into 2009. Apparently its passage is nowhere close to given. So here we have a top Senator saying Wagoner has to go, others saying he doesn't, one more thing to fight about, huge uncertainty injected, demoralizing GM while at the same time putting the entire package at risk - destroying investor confidence when confidence is always a principal goal.

If Dodd were competent he would not say anything so inflammatory and destructive unless he knew he was going to make it happen, and fast.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 07 Dec 08 - 08:44 PM

If we had senators picking the management staff, we'd end up with nothing but political appointments. If Dodd said that, he should be replaced--but then, of course, we don't have time for that.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 07:50 AM

Actually, enither Dodd nor Wagnor should be replaced... But what should occur is the kind of governemnt oversight that is sorely missing from the $350B bailout of the banks... And, as I have pointed out before, if we the taxpayers are on the hook for that amount to the banks that money is somewhere in those banks yet if have some good news and some bad news...

The good news is that interest rates are down...

The bad news is that the banks ain't loaning none of that bailout money...

Lending, duhhhhhhhhh, should have been a prerequsite for the $350B Wall Street bailout...

That's exactly why that bailout was ill-cocieved... It was packages and sold to the Americans much the way the Iraq War was packaged and sold and I'm sick that the American people let our governemnt do such a stupid thing...

And I'm sick of trickle down economics... They don't trickle down any better now than when the stupid Republicans changed the economic model back during Ronald Reagan...

When will they ever learn, when will thay ever learn???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 08:31 AM

They won't learn, in my opinion, it all worked out fine for the richest ones of them, and the rest of them are all aspiring to be like the richest.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 12:13 PM

Ya' know, Rigs... I hope you aren't correct but there is that chance that a "culture" has set in over the last 30 years that will not allow people of a certain generation to think any other way... Unfortunately, way too many Baby Boomers and **our** kidss fall into those generations... Obama, in that regard is a freak of his generation... He does not represent them very well as I've allready seen so many 40-somethings harden...

But, I hope I am wrong and that the current circumstances will jump start US outta this culture 'cause we really ain't got much choice here...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 08 Dec 08 - 09:35 PM

The Green Party--in its most basic form--has the solution. The people who are not rich yet, and who do not stand to inherit anything, finally come to the realization that an ever expanding population to generate an ever expanding market will soon destroy the planet. Finally, everybody decides to live within their means, which promotes a level of energy and enlightenment where people are encouraged to pursue more constructive objectives.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 08:07 AM

Yeah, Rigs, that is why for so many years I worked for and voted exclusivelu for Green Party candidates... All the stuff that Ralph Nader has been talking about in terms of corporate irresponsibilty, going back 20 years, has proven to be correct... Even his thoughts on globalization are now very much front and center as corportaqe greed has pushed countries into a new and very damaging protectionts thinking... We don't need to be protecting our corporations from more competitive ones... We need to puch for agreements where those competitive agree to basic human rights of their workers...

Wer have the same thing going on right here in the US with Southern Sanators fighting the loans to the BIg Three because of the Toyota and Hyndai plants in Mississippi and Alabma that exploit labor there...

Like I have said over and over, we need to repeal 14(b) for the good of the working class... That one act would force corporations to act more responsibly within our own country...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 12:28 PM

Bobert - Could you explain again what 14(b) is?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 01:41 PM

14(b) of the Taft Hartley Act, also called the "slave labor act" was passed over the veto of Harry Treman in 1947... It is anti-union and the 14(b) clause, also known as the "Right to Work" provison allows states to enact legislation which prevents "union shops"... It doesn't go as far as saying that a worker cannot be a member of a union but that the shop cannot be all union... What this, in essence does, is strikes a critical blow to union organizing in thatr state because, hey, why join the union if yer gonna get the same benefits as the folks who pay union dues... So why bother even trying to organize...

The bottom line is that in 14(b) states you flat out don't have much, if any, union activities and Boss Hog can hire you to do whatever OSCHA says ain't outright illegal and pay you as little as he can...

What this has done is create a massive wage differential betweem the states, of which there are 35 or so who don't have "Eight to Work" and the "Right to Work" states, mostly southern who do... This partially explains why there is so much poverty in the South...

Now what we are seein with the Big Three is the Toyota people blowin' their horns that they can make cars cheaper than Detroit... Well, yeah, they can... Doesn't matter than many of these Toyotas are being made by workers who aren't paid enough to get them above e federal poverty threshholds... It's kinda like Detroit having to compete with Chinese or Pakistani labor but within our own country and it sets the country up to have areas where third world living qualities exist...

If (14)b were to be repealed then the Northeast and the South would compete fairly and the working class in the South would do much better than they historically have done...

Big Mick might be able to add a few comments here but that's it in a nutshell...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Genie
Date: 09 Dec 08 - 04:33 PM

Speaking of the banking industry bailout:
Workers win: Bank to give credit to Chicago plant

========
CHICAGO – Bank of America says it will extend credit to a Chicago window and door maker whose workers have occupied the factory for five days.
The bank said Tuesday that it's willing to give the Republic Windows and Doors factory "a limited amount of additional loans." That's so it can resolve claims of employees who have staged a sit-in since Friday.
The factory closed Friday after Bank of America canceled its financing.
Workers were given three days' notice. But they refused to leave and vowed to stay there until receiving assurances they would receive severance and accrued vacation pay.
The bank has been criticized for cutting off the plant's credit after taking federal bailout money.
========

See how well the money usually "trickles down" when the gummint gives breaks to the big guys?

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 10:33 AM

Bobert - Yeah, I live in a "Right to Work" state. That's what I remember hearing it called. You're right, of course, and when Boss Hog is allowed to hire illegal immigrants, the wages go even lower.


             Genie - I was surprised that B of A agreed to advance additional funds for the window and door factory. The companie is obviously either in bankruptcy, or about to go into bankruptcy--if nobody is building houses, who need windows and doors.
             So in reality, the bank is simply giving away the money; the window and door company will just include it in the estate of the bankruptcy. I'm sure they know that, and they are only doing it to avoid the bad publicity.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: heric
Date: 10 Dec 08 - 12:18 PM

Yeah BoA was a surprise PR, and it turns out that that place was owned about half by JP Morgan.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 08:17 PM

"THURSDAY, DECEMBER 11, 2008

Congressman: Fed "Bamboozling" Americans

The Fed is refusing to disclose the recipients of $2 trillion dollars in loans, even after Bloomberg sued under the Freedom of Information Act to get the information.

As Bloomberg writes:

"If they told us what they held, we would know the potential losses that the government may take and that's what they don't want us to know," said Carlos Mendez, who oversees about $14 billion at New York-based ICP Capital LLC.***

Congress is demanding more transparency from the Fed and Treasury on the bailout efforts, most recently during Dec. 10 hearings by the House Financial Services committee when Representative David Scott, a Georgia Democrat, said Americans had "been bamboozled."***

"Americans don't want to get blindsided anymore," Mendez said in an interview. "They don't want it sugarcoated or whitewashed. They want the complete truth. The truth is we can't take all the pain right now."

The Bloomberg lawsuit said that the collateral lists "are central to understanding and assessing the government's response to the most cataclysmic financial crisis in America since the Great Depression."

In response, the Fed argued that the trade-secret [law] could be expanded to include potential harm to any of the central bank's customers . . . .

Trade secret law?

Trade secret law protects things like valuable business methods. What's the banks' secret business method here - making stupid decisions, going bankrupt and then becoming the recipient of socialist government handouts?

What's next? Will the government argue that it can't disclose the details of its torture program because it needs to protect the trade secrets of the companies that make the electro-shock machines and the waterboarding platforms?"

From 'George Washington's Blog'

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 09:14 PM

Yeah, Amos... This perhaps is the worst part about the Southern Repubs taking turns at standing up and righteously attacking the UAW while Wall Street is having the bash of it life on our grandkids and their kids dime... Wish it were a dime... Every trillion dollars represents around $3,300 for every man woman and child in this country... This ain't chump change that we've seen go down the Wall Street crapper... By the time you service the debt on borrowing this kinda money it's gonna cost our grandkids more like ten grand each... And that ain't chump change either...

Makes this ol' hillbilly sick...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout ????????????
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Dec 08 - 10:59 PM

There is no bail out.

Rather it is the largest single bank robbery by the banks in recorded history. The hiest is spear headed by the two golden boys of Goldman Sachs, Paulson and Neil Kashcari.

The biggest Ponzi scheme of all time is only 1/14th as large as the Great Bank Robbery of 08.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 10:36 AM

Remember when this all started? bush insisted that we had three days to approve emergency funding for the financial industry or we would fall into a depression. It took more than a few days and we didn't. Now he's giving a sizable chunk of that money to the automotive industry. They have three months to undo years of mismanagement or face bankruptcy - under Obama's governmemt.

Every city should start a pile of discarded shoes to lob at him on January 20.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Amos
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:09 AM

SINS:

We didn't?? It sure is getting close!

Hmmm. If the stock market is any indication he may have been right, but not for the reasons he cited.

A

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Dec 08 - 11:49 AM

Not yet, Amos. Not in baby bush's reign either. When the automotive industry tanks under Obama's watch, then look for an official declaration of a depression. And we know where the blame will fall...

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: freda underhill
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 06:00 AM

In 2003, a US government official called Armando Falcon warned the White House that companies such as Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae were backing far too many dodgy mortgages, risking financial collapse and "contagious illiquidity in the market".

Did the White House look at tightening up regulations? Nope. They tried to sack Falcon. He was just being "negative".

An book by Barbara Ehrenreich, How Positive Thinking Fooled America and the World gives an interesting angle on how management theory of the last decade the pursuit of positives, affirmations and delusional optimism contributed to big business irresponsibility.

After reading this review of the book, grumpiness seems a pretty balanced option.

Subject: RE: BS: The Bailout
From: Riginslinger
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 06:18 PM

Barbara Ehrenreich can write "An Ode to Grumpiness."