Info: Dave Hillery - singer & scholar

Subject: Dave Hillery info?
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 14 May 15 - 09:16 PM

One of the latest Topic reissues is 'Trans Penine', by Harry Boardman and Dave Hillery. I'm enjoying listening to it a lot. But while I'd heard of Harry Boardman before, I'd never heard of Dave Hillery. And, if I'm honest, it's the songs that Dave sings on this album that initially caught my ear, which I like the most. He's got a very appealing 'everyman' sort of voice, no mannerisms, very honest

Can anyone tell me if he recorded any other albums, or any more about the bloke? Rooting around the internet is only telling me about the Trans Penine album.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 May 15 - 01:57 AM

try contacting Brian Peters, I believe he may have been a resident at the unicorn folk club manchester, the club Harry ran.
I am sure he was a friend of Harrys,although i do not rember him being there when i guested at Harrys club, although the title suggests he lived in west yorkshire

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 May 15 - 02:46 AM

Dave was one of my early influences when I first became in folk song proper in the 60s.
I used to travel from Liverpool to Manchester (by thumb up the East Lancashire Road), most Friday nights to attend the Wayfarers Club at The Pack Horse in Manchester, run by Terry Whelan and Harry Boardman, along with Dave, Tom Gilfellon (bolh of whom were students at Man. Uni) and a magical woman singer named Terry Griffiths - hooked from then on.
Met him several times over the years and passed on some field recordings when he was doing a project on field singers.
I think he was in the Leeds area, and had a place in Whitby and was associated with the Festival there.
Good days
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 15 May 15 - 03:48 AM

> One of the latest Topic reissues is 'Trans Penine', by Harry Boardman and Dave Hillery.<

I've just looked on the Topic website and I can't find it. The Artist A-Z index has only one item for Harry Boardman (Deep Lancashire) and none for Dave Hillery.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Mike Yates
Date: 15 May 15 - 04:06 AM

I spoke to Dave some years ago when he was living in Durham. He was working on his PhD, to do with traditional song & singing, and I believe that, having obtained his doctorate, he became a University lecturer somewhere in the North-east.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 15 May 15 - 07:21 AM

Like Jim Carroll, I was greatly influenced by the music I heard at Harry Boardman's folk club - by 1969-70, it had moved to Failsworth, but then moved back into Manchester city centre. Harry, Dave, Terry and the embryonic Canny Fettle. Last I heard, Dave was definitely in Durham, but not sure about the university lectureship ... in an case, he'd be retired by now. You can find his doctoral thesis on line.
Derek

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,matt milton
Date: 15 May 15 - 11:43 AM

Richard - sorry, when I say reissues I just mean digital releases. Have a look on Spotify or iTunes or emusic.

I think Topic's MP3 reissue programme is a long way ahead of any info it puts up on its website. (And I'd rather that it was that way round).

Another Topic album I've recently been enjoying in digital format is the Bonny Green Tree by John Reilly.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 May 15 - 03:14 PM

Dave did a lot of recording of source singers in the York and Whitby areas. I have contact details if you really want them. (PM me)

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jun 16 - 03:46 PM

I knew Harry and Terry and Dave Hillary for the Wayfarer club 65-66.
Dave knew a song called The Lyke wake dirge which I was very taken with.
My daughter was 40 last year and had her"Do" at the Pack horse on Bridge street in the very same room that the wayfarer club would meet. A very different venue from the mid 60's.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 03 Jan 20 - 07:01 PM

Just came here with the same question - listening to Trans Pennine as I type, and really enjoying Dave's pieces. Is he still around? Does he have any remaining involvement in music?

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:44 AM

My favourite song from Trans Pennine was Dave Hillery's "Nellie O' Bob's O't Crowtrees" I haven't heard anyone other than him sing it. Hope he's still singing.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: matt milton
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:32 PM

Ah, nice to see this thread revived. I sing 'Nellie O'Bobs' sometimes at singarounds. It's a beautiful song and Dave's singing of it is charming.

I suppose Dave Hillery would be getting on a bit now. I'm pretty sure someone said he was an academic somewhere, though I guess he'd be retired now.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:38 PM

He did a degree in his retirement and his dissertation involved his collecting experiences, in North Yorkshire, but I don't think he would want to be referred to as an academic. He also included a comparison between the repertoires of one of the Norfolk singers and one of the North Yorkshire singers. It might have been Walter Pardon and Arthur Wood. I haven't heard from him for at least 5 years.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Dave Eyre
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 03:52 PM

Spoke to him a few years ago when I was book selling. I remembered him and the others mentioned in Jim Carroll's post - I was there at the time.

There were also nights at Terry Whelan's after the club when there was a massive take away from the local Indian restaurant on Moss Side. I seem to remember a child's pram was involved!!

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Keith Price
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:26 PM

Good to hear 'Nellie O Bobs' still sung Matt. I'd love to sing it but it just doesn't sound right with a scouse accent :)

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:29 PM

Happy New Year, Dave
Where was he living when last you spoke?

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 04:57 PM

I believe that this is the same person whose work comparing Walter Pardon with three other singers I have been praising repeatedly on the thread about Walter Pardon research. He had many interesting points, including comparisons between first and second wave song collectors, and what he saw as increased problems with 'mediation' in the more embedded approaches of second wave collectors. I hope this does not misrepresent his point of view. He had many other interesting points to make. This is the best thing I have read on Pardon, and |I think I have read more or less everything people on here can point me to.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM

Where did you read his work, Sue?

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 06:19 PM

I googled and found it online, it was the University of Newcastle.
The title is something like 'Vernacular Song From a Yorkshire Hill Farm'. It compares four singers, one from the first revival and three from the second. I intend to post more about it in the Pardon thread if this does not get closed before I get a chance to do so. It looks closely at singing styles over four categories of song. It seems Hillery is musically literate as he discusses musical aspects in some detail as well as social contexts where these are known.

If you google you should locate it quite easily with this information.
If not come back and I'll do it and give the link. I downloaded it.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Ross Campbell
Date: 04 Jan 20 - 08:04 PM

Steve -
If you Google "dave hillery phd thesis", the first entry to come up is this thread, the second is the link for the pdf download of his thesis.

Ross

---

http://etheses.whiterose.ac.uk/3902/1/THESIS___FINAL.pdf

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Peregrina
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 02:07 PM

I just met David Hillary at the end of last year
If I see him again I will tell him of this thread

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Peregrina
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 02:07 PM

I just met David Hillary at the end of last year
If I see him again I will tell him of this thread

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 03:29 PM

Thanks, Mary!
How did you come across him? Was it at the Black Swan?

Thanks, Ross & Sue
I'll check that out.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 04:37 PM

Hi Steve,
at a house concert in York, with his daughter
(I think I have an email)

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 04:37 PM

(It was Windy Gyle and he'd been Anthony Robb's pipes teacher long ago)

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Vic Smith
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 04:39 PM

Nellie o' Bob's o't' Crowtrees - wonderful!

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 05 Jan 20 - 04:55 PM

By the way, I prefer not to be called Sue. It isn't my name!
It doesn't matter too much in the overall scheme of things though.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 10:11 AM

Pseu
I had an inkling it wasn't. My fault very likely, but you did once sign yourself as 'Sue' at the bottom of a message. I have no issue with posters using pseudonyms, but if I have lengthy conversations I do prefer to know who I'm corresponding with. You obviously have your reasons and I respect that.

I have used pseudonyms occasionally in the past, but readers don't have to look very far to work out it's me. When I was compiling crosswords I was 'Gripper' and you may have come across 'Dungbeetle' on the Mustrad website'. It's just a bit of fun!

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 05:17 PM

It's coming back to me now. Before Dave's thesis came online not long after he completed it I tried to obtain a copy from Newcastle. The cost was beyond my pocket but they sent me a microfilm version of it which not having a microfilm reader at the time I took to my local library where I was allowed free to look at the thesis, but the cost of printing off a full copy was again prohibitive. I only had the microfilm for a limited amount of time so eventually I had to send it back without copying it unfortunately. Now I have printed it off and it is phenomenal. I'll be back in a few weeks when I've read it and thoroughly digested it. Many thanks for the links, Ross.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 06 Jan 20 - 06:37 PM

Steve No problem. Just me messing about as in 'Dungbeetle', so it serves me aright. I went through a phase of being Tzu. Glad you are enjoying this thesis as I have got a lot out of it, even reading a downloaded copy online. I would thank whoever game me the ref on the Pardon thread but they too were anonymous!

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 08:49 AM

Is yur name Smith? Is it Rumplestiltskin? Is it Campbell?

6 more guesses. I'll be back tomorrow.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Nick
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 08:54 AM

What about Dr Dallas?

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 09:06 AM

XXXX :)

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Guest Dave Eyre
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 11:49 AM

Hi Steve when I spoke to him he was in Durham as I remember.

But it seems he has appeared so that is good. Who were the singers involved?

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 07 Jan 20 - 12:44 PM

The last address I have for him is at Allergate in Durham City.

Singers he compared were Jacky Beeforth who he recorded, Walter, Harry Cox and Frank Hinchliffe. Jacky had the next farm to John Greaves a good friend of ours featured on the Yorkshire Garland website.

It would be useful to know where Dave's recordings are deposited and how accessible they are.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 01:45 PM

Some people suspect me of being G Wallis. I'm nowhere near as well-informed, of course.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jan 20 - 02:02 PM

g wallis? never heard of her

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Jan 20 - 10:54 AM

Is yur name Grommett? Is it Quatrecroix? Is it Karl?

Three more to go!

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 09:36 AM

Dave Hillery also makes quite a pronounced contribution to this Topic LP - would anyone recommend it?

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Room-For-Company-Folk-Songs-Festive-and-Sociable/release/9923123

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Jan 20 - 10:38 AM

Not got the album but if I remember aright it was based on a small book of songs produced by Roy Palmer which I do have. All traditional English songs.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM

From VERNACULAR SONG FROM A NORTH YORKSHIRE HILL FARM: CULTURE, CONTEXTS AND COMPARISONS
Submitted to the University of Newcastle for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy 2005
DAVID HILLERY International Centre for Music Studies

"The ritual of the hirings went on in many areas until the First World War and lingered on in some areas including the Lake District and Ireland until the Second. The arrangement was a very speculative and hazardous enterprise for both parties. Jack Beeforth encapsulated the problem of the need for mutual trust in the transaction thus:

"A lad goes to t'hirings and meets a farmer who says, 'Ista for hiring?' 'Aye', says t'lad. 'What can you deea?' says t'farmer. 'Oh, ommost onnything on a farm', says t'lad. 'Well thoo looks a likely lad', says t'farmer. 'Wheer were you last?"Wi' him over theer', says t'lad. 'Can you get yourself a character?' says t'farmer 'and then I'll hire you'. So the lad goes over to t'feller he were wi', and asks him for a character. 'Nay, lad, you deeant want to go wi' him. He'll hunger yer and work yer and you'll have a right bad time'. So the lad goes back to t'farmer. 'Well, have you got a character?' says he. 'Why', says t'lad, 'I haven't got one for me, but he's just given me a right one for thee'."

I've taken this extract and put it into verse;

A mean farmer goes to the Martinmas Fair
To see the farm workers who all gathered there.
Lad, ista for hiring? Hasta got a strong arm?
I can deea ommost onnything, says t’lad, On a farm.

Well thoo looks a good lad. Wheer were you last year?
I worked wi’ t’feller standing just over theer.
Now if he will put in a good word for thee,
Then I’ll hire thee this year and tha’ll come back with me.

The lad goes over to him to ask for a good word.
But his old master says, Nay, lad, haven’t yer heard?
Yer deean’t want to go wi’ him to make yer new home.
He’ll hunger yer and work yer reet down to the bone.

So the lad he goes back to t’farmer again.
Did he put in a good word? t'farmer says then.
Why, says t’lad, I haven’t got one for me,
But he’s told me to never go working for thee.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Jan 20 - 04:46 PM

Excellent stuff, Henry.
Completely in the style of an early-nineteenth century broadside writer who would have used as much of the material in the story or newspaper article as he could to make his ballad.

Anapestic tetrameter can be fit to all manner of excellent tunes. The obvious one is Villikins but you could use Derry Down.

Love it! excellent economy and well crafted.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,henryp
Date: 16 Jan 20 - 02:53 AM

Thank you, Steve. The words of the conversation simply fell into place!

And this amended last verse shows the lad outwitting the farmer;

So the lad he goes back to t’farmer again.
Will he put in a good word? t’farmer says then.
No, says t’lad, He won't give one for me,
And without one I cannot come working for thee.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 01:32 AM

Steve Gardam commented on another thread that he tended to skip the bits in Hillery's PhD which were musically technical. I fully understand how musical analysis can get too much to take in. I recently gave up on a chapter in a book for this very reason. But I have the advantage of some degree of musical literacy. Even so I and had to think twice about a couple of bits of Hillery's technical vocabulary. But for me one of the strengths and points of interest of the piece was the comparisons of singing styles based on close analysis of use of voice and of ornamentation, rhythm, pitch (or slight lack of in some cases) etc. Too often folk songs are treated in writing as if they were nothing but lyrics. I know that different lyrics got sung to various tunes and so on, and also that musical notation and vocabulary doesn't fully describe what we hear, and are designed for 'art music' anyway, but as a person more of a musician than singer (and not much of either) I find it frustrating that the music bit tends to get ignored, or reduced to analysis of tune families. Music has its own semiotic significance, to put it one way. If they weren't songs people would recite them not sing them. I hope Steve doesn't mind me continuing that discussion here, where it seems more appropriate. And that he understands that I mean no disrespect by doing so.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 12:13 PM

Pseu, I'm the thickest-skinned person on the planet!

There is a very strong movement starting up led by Sheffield University and Julia Bishop with strong TSF connections which is concentrating on the tunes of folksongs. I've contributed a paper to their first volume. Although I don't read music I can still research the history of tunes.
My paper is on the evolution and history of the ubiquitous tune 'Derry Down'.

If you contact Joe I'm sure he'd willingly set up a permathread on tune studies and history. I have long said at our meetings that this aspect of our research is sadly underresearched mainly because most of us are firmly text-based.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 12:26 PM

@ Steve I sort of knew you wouldn't mind really! But thanks anyway. I read bits of Bishop in the Roud/Bishop book on English Folk Song. Sounds interesting. There is an excellent online course (MOOC) called 'The Fundamentals of Music Theory' which people might like to try. It's run by Edinburgh Uni (if they still do it). https://www.eca.ed.ac.uk/study/short-course/fundamentals-music-theory-mooc

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 04:08 PM

That's useful for others but if I spread my knowledge base too far, at my age, I fear it will weaken it. I'm already forgetting a lot of what I had in my head. I'll stick to what I know, and have the info on at my fingertips, thankyou. What with the boats and organising folk events and the books and articles my family already think I do too much. They're probably right.

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,Derek Schofield
Date: 17 Jan 20 - 06:01 PM

Regarding tunes, the current Folk Music Journal is devoted to tunes, and many of the papers were first given at the first weekend tunes conference organised by EFDSS/VWML in 2017. There was a further conference in Sheffield in 2019, and another conference on tunes organised by EFDSS/VWML is planned for this Autumn. Details on the VWML website.
Derek

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: GUEST,BlackAcornUK
Date: 18 Jan 20 - 11:43 AM

Had the good fortune to happen upon a copy of the previously discussed 'Room for Company: Folk Songs Festive and Sociable'; it and a handful of friends came back to live with me yesterday


https://twitter.com/JohnMcArts/status/1218197501519572993?s=19

Subject: RE: Dave Hillery
From: matt milton
Date: 20 Jan 20 - 09:01 AM

@BlackAcornUK: glad to hear that Afflecks Palace still exists! I would have expected to have become luxury flats by now... Is the Night & Day cafe still going?