No such thing as a B-sharp

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:16 AM

"If you can hear it, you can write it down ..."

Unless you are Cecil Sharpe... then what others read you have written down may not be quite what they think they thought they heard... :-)

Your own musical background will subtly modify what you think you hear... :-)

Time for more peanuts ....

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:22 AM

But then Cecil Sharp is not renouned for being a great musician, just as being a collector of anthropological oddities.

A musician with a good ear who can read and write will have better luck.

I don't think there is such a thing as a musical stenographer, but most Jazz musicians learn sooner or later that the most efficient way of getting inside the head of musician they like and working out what he's up to is ti transcribe his work and work out whats going on phrase by phrase.

As with everything, Practise makes perfect.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:41 AM

Not going to comment on the existence or otherwise of B sharp (because it all depends on who wants to know, when and why). It's only a convention anyway, a compromise, not a physical law.

But I would like to pick josepp up on this:

"I don't know why anyone would argue that [being able to read] is not a required ability. You're always a better musician for knowing it--always."

I'll agree that it's better to be able to read than not, because writing and reading is a great way to communicate music quickly and reliably, but there are two things you might like to consider which your posts suggest you have not.

Some people - specially certified dyslexics like me - are physically incapable of reading music (I've known all the theory all my life, and I can write it, but not read it back). People still seem to think I'm a decent composer, arranger and player. (Writing a 2 hour musical on commission at the moment, as it happens).

But much more importantly, is it CRUCIAL that people, specially children, are taught to play by ear FIRST - just as we all do with language. Those who learn aurally first usually have no problem learning to read music later (again, just as we do with language). But those taught to go straight from dot to finger, bypassing the ear (and often, sadly, the heart) often never learn to improvise, to compose, to harmonise - to pick out solos by ear -in short to be able to do what music is really all about; play by soul. (And they often can't play from memory either).

So if the teacher told the child there was no B sharp because at that stage he just didn't need to know the detail yet then he did the right thing.

I still work on the old Newtonian physics. My son is doing A level physics and he can do quarks - but we can both pick up a pint of beer ok.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:44 AM

Just found this ...

"The ABC scale notation is baby talk, and apparently josepp speaks it well. It is perfectly and completely adequate for most uses of interest to the majority of people in common situations, but it's still NOT the language of the most competent musicians or music theorests."

Sorry Pal, but this is nonsense.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

===But much more importantly, is it CRUCIAL that people, specially children, are taught to play by ear FIRST - just as we all do with language. Those who learn aurally first usually have no problem learning to read music later (again, just as we do with language). But those taught to go straight from dot to finger, bypassing the ear (and often, sadly, the heart) often never learn to improvise, to compose, to harmonise - to pick out solos by ear -in short to be able to do what music is really all about; play by soul. (And they often can't play from memory either).===

,,,,
Probably a good general principle; but not invariable ~~ think of Mozart!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:51 AM

"I still work on the old Newtonian physics. My son is doing A level physics and he can do quarks - but we can both pick up a pint of beer ok."

Not entirely fair I don't think.

Josepp is getting ragged for saying that he knew a guy who was misinformed by a charlatan posing as a music teacher.

The "teacher" accepted money in exchange for false information, not knowing whether that information was true or not.

It would be like me accepting money from someone for telling them that there is definitely only one law of motion.


PS - my reading, like yours, is painfully slow - but knowing how opened up many doors.

You wouldn't say to a dyslexic person that they shouldn't bother learning to read books - and the same principle applies in music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 06:58 AM

One more thing ...

Every night since my daughter was able to focus her eyes on something, she and i hhave sat every night and read a book.

I didn't wait for her to learn to speak first, I just pointed at things on pages and made appropriate sounds ...

at first, this meant pointing at pictures and saying "bus" or "dog"

Later, as she grew older, this moved on to "A" an "B" etc

Here's the point ...

... she doesn't need to look at a book if she wants to talk to me.

She is fully capable of improvising sentences on her own without loking aat a page.

The idea that being able to read means you cant' speak, or in musical terms, play without dots, is simply not true.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:13 AM

Is it a huge, vital advantage to know of the existence of B# ?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:19 AM

"Is it a huge, vital advantage to know of the existence of B# ? "

Actually, yes.

But in this thread it is more important to acknowledge that pretending to know there isn't such a thing, and collecting cash for it, is fraudulent.

This could have been agreed a long time ago, but Josepp has been subjected to ridicule for bringing it up.

In this case the mob have incorrectly identified the troll, and might have done bettter to listen and think.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:21 AM

Why is it so important to know this?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:29 AM

Ok, it exists, explanatin from Wiki-p here:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B_sharp

aka C!!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Howard Jones
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:39 AM

I don't understand why people find this so difficult to grasp. No one has difficulty understanding that, for example, A sharp and B flat are different ways of describing the same note, so why the difficulty with B# and C?

It's important if you want to understand music because some key signatures show B#. Whether you need to use this knowledge is another matter - if you only play in "folk keys" then you won't use it. But understanding it helps you to understand how scales work and how notes are described.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:47 AM

Lox, I think you misunderstand my position. I'm not saying that B# doesn't exist or that it's worthless. More the fact that arguing semantics over a enharmonic equivalent is a bit of a waste of time.

I'm a programmer, and one of the things you're taught about straight away is to hide complexity. You don't need to know about how I caught that exception you threw, you just need to know that I did and thus you need to check the input. However, if you were to learn programming you would need to know.

In this context, B# is an unhandled exception. We don't need to know how to catch it, only what to do if it happens. My point is that if you are using music as a hard and fast way to learn, you will be missing the point. When people drop a key by accident you don't continue singing in the original key because that doesn't work.

f you use a B# you're (in theory) using a note which is slightly sharper than a C. I don't know anyone who goes "Ah, a B#! I must adjust the note slightly". I, along with many others go "Ah, a B#! That is a C" and our minds automatically adjust to fit the chord. That's what being a musician is about.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:51 AM

Mr Happy.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you are actually interested and not just raising a glass to ignorance.


Here are the notes of the key of C#



----------------------------------------------------------------------
      
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                       #0
-------------------------------------------------#0-------------------
                                          #0
-----------------------------------#0---------------------------------
                            #0
---------------------#0-----------------------------------------------
               #0
       #-0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#



As you can see, the scale looks the way it sounds - one note following another.

Likewise, if you were to see a melody written in C#, you would have a good idea of its shae and sound by just glancing at it.

Conceptually this is a very useful way of visualizing music in your head.

Until I learned this stuff, I used to visualize things in terms of a guitar fretboard, which is prbably the single most confusing and inefficient way to visualize music in your mind.


In practice, yopu would put all the sharps in the key signature at the start of the stave so that you don't have to write them in front of each note as follows.

#
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#   
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#                                                       0
#------------------------------------------------0-------------------
#                                        0
-----------------------------------0---------------------------------
                            0
---------------------0-----------------------------------------------
               0
       -0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#


That way, the melody is even easier to read and any sharps or flats added to the tune to give it of spice stand out more.


But Mr Happy, trying to argue this point from an ignorant standpoint will only make you come across like a "wise" old skeptic warning about the dangers of linguistic literacy.

As with anything, to make a salient point or criticism, you have to first find something out about your subject.

I suggest, if you are genuinely interested in understanding the answers to your questons, that you take the time to learn about it.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:52 AM

"But those taught to go straight from dot to finger, bypassing the ear (and often, sadly, the heart) often never learn to improvise, to compose, to harmonise - to pick out solos by ear -in short to be able to do what music is really all about; play by soul. (And they often can't play from memory either)."

In my case this is wrong... sorry... :-p

But being a (once - fallen out of practice somewhat) brilliant sight reader - even conductor scores, I'm very lazy at 'from memory'... all the others are not a problem...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:55 AM

Ah bollocks

the type face on the thread is different to the type face on the message box.


I'll try again.


Fig 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------
      
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                #0
-------------------------------------------------#0-------------------
                                                   #0
-----------------------------------#0---------------------------------
                                     #0
---------------------#0-----------------------------------------------
                         #0
       #-0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#



fig 2

#
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#   
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#                                                                0
#------------------------------------------------0-------------------
#                                                 0
-----------------------------------0---------------------------------
                                     0
---------------------0-----------------------------------------------
                         0
       -0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#


Hope this works.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:56 AM

On the subject of playing from memory, I try to play from memory as much as possible. It can give you a whole lot of freedom that you don't expect.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

Nearly

one more go ...



Fig 1

----------------------------------------------------------------------
      
----------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                                   #0
-------------------------------------------------#0-------------------
                                                    #0
-----------------------------------#0---------------------------------
                                  #0
---------------------#0-----------------------------------------------
                      #0
       #-0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#



fig 2

#
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#   
#---------------------------------------------------------------------
#                                                                   0
#------------------------------------------------0-------------------
#                                                 0
-----------------------------------0---------------------------------
                                  0
---------------------0-----------------------------------------------
                      0
       -0-


          C#    D#    E#    F#    G#    A#    B#      C#


Here goes ...

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 07:59 AM

"But in this thread it is more important to acknowledge that pretending to know there isn't such a thing, and collecting cash for it, is fraudulent.

This could have been agreed a long time ago, but Josepp has been subjected to ridicule for bringing it up.

In this case the mob have incorrectly identified the troll, and might have done bettter to listen and think. "



Actually, you have that back to front. Being a good hearted person with apparently little experience of those like him, you take his post at face value as a true and valid account.

In the context of his other rantings here (in which he often claims to be an expert, better than the rest of us), he has often proved himself to be but an ignorant loud mouth troll.

And you are taking his account at face value, which many posters have also seen thru.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:01 AM

"I'm not saying that B# doesn't exist or that it's worthless. More the fact that arguing semantics over a enharmonic equivalent is a bit of a waste of time."

It is narrowmindledly only that in modern 12 note equal temperament, which JiK will soon give the exact correct name of, I'm sure ... ;-) If you REALLY know your Music Theory History (Internationally), that statement reveals a severe lack of breadth of knowledge and experience.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:06 AM

we have a few new fiddlers at our club. Despite reading the dots, it appears that for them, neither B sharp nor C exist as they always seem to end up somewhere between the two.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:10 AM

Lox,

Thanks for your input.

Nevertheless, I don't feel deprived nor advantaged by the knowledge of the existance of this key/ note.

I've played tunes, songs on a variety of instruments for many years, either solo or with others in sessions & for a big part of the time only needed to know the key of the melody, but without consciously knowing each individual note being played

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:16 AM

"Nevertheless, I don't feel deprived nor advantaged by the knowledge of the existance of this key/ note."

Fine, maybe you don't need it.

As for the advantage aspect, if i gave you a screwdriver and told you it was useful, but you had never seen a screw, much less know what it does, you might think it useless.

If you were building something though that a nail could not accomplish, you might suddenly discover how useful screws are and then you might be inspired to discover the world of cross heads, flatheds, allen keys etc.

Seek and ye shall find.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:20 AM

Lox - this is from the OP: "heard a guy tell someone that last night. "I've studied guitar for three years and my instructor says there's no such thing as a B-sharp. It's a C." So either the teacher is an idiot who shouldn't be in that job or the guy misunderstood him. "

josepp is reporting hearsay. We have no idea what the teacher actually said, or why. It may have been wrong to suggest this, or the teacher may have merely been trying to simplify things to show where to place a finger on the fretboard, or - as stated, the pupil may have merely misunderstood, or josepp may have misunderstood. We don't know.

It is josepp's statements in subsequent posts, which appear to suggest that being able to read music and understand the more complex conventions of written music theory is necessary, (and failure to do so verging on cultural criminality), that have brought out so many opposite views.

Telling someone there is no such thing as B sharp is not a crime - because they can find out for themselves later on, IF they need to, when and why we decide to use this name for that note in certain, fairly rare, cases.

It's a concept that does not really crop up at all in trad folk and very seldom in contemp folk (joespp's example song "Where Did You Sleep Last Night" is of course VERY firmly in the latter category ;-). A rock guitarist who does not know about B sharp is not going to be very handicapped - it just doesn't occur in rock music conventions (which, actually, tend to be even more aural/show-and-tell than folk music conventions, as it happens).

Trying to explain too early, to someone who may be struggling with the terminology, and who may never need to know anyway is not necessarily good teaching. Could be very bad teaching, actually.

Mozart almost certainly learned to play by ear first. I could pick out a tune with chords on the piano at the age of two and started on the violin (1/8th sise, got for the family by Clara Schumann) at the age of three. Both my sisters and both my children could, like me, also read simple words at two (my daughter could recite the alphabet backwards at 2) - but we ALL mastered speaking before reading. Everyone always does.

I did not say people should not try to read music, or did I? No, I see I said that it was an advantage, and so it is. I did say, however, it was not always necessary, or possible, and could even be a hindrance if taught too early and/or too rigidly.

"The idea that being able to read means you cant' speak is not true"

I did not say that either. I would have been even stupider than usual if I had.

"or in musical terms, play without dots."

Ah - but there I beg to differ. I have met hundreds of people who have been musically damaged by being taught book-music without ear/heart-music. I actually believe it verges on abuse when inflicted on small children.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:23 AM

Lox...Perhaps I could have been more clear. It was a beginner guitar class and it was definately C/G (slash chord) in guitar nomenclature a C chord with a G in the bass and was notated as 332010 in the tab and as such in the standard notation. The student was adamant that what he saw wasn't what the teacher described, so he was quite confused. It looks to both of us that his teacher isn't a guitarist, and not much of a musician, teaching out of his subject area.

I'm well aware of the other things you describe. Let's get back to B#.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:37 AM

Furthermore, I've many's the time seen people wanting to join sesshes but couldn't because they could only play anything from dots

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:39 AM

Well tom, I guess that in music, as in speech, it is important to be taught the meanings of words as well as how to spell them.

The myth I like to dispel is that Reading and improvisation are somehow mutually exclusive.

If they are both experienced and taught together then that is when the most complete musicians are made.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:52 AM

"The myth I like to dispel is that Reading and improvisation are somehow mutually exclusive."

Yes. I would like to dispel that myth - if there is one - too. It is patently not the case.

Learning to play by ear before learning to read is benign. Leaning to read before learning to play by ear is not - and can be a major inhibitor of thinks like improv. It may only be a small minority who suffer (we don't have stats, I don't think), but the precautionary principle demands that we routinely teach beginners to listen and copy first, THEN show them the convenience of writing it down.

Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 08:55 AM

Tom,

'Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music.'

Brilliant!!

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: DrugCrazed
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:13 AM

I don't think I ever said that B# IS a C. Just that I think of it as such to reduce my note count.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:24 AM

Well, I will say this about B sharp. Knowing it's there makes me want to write a jingle for the Gillette Razor company.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 09:57 AM

"Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music."

True, but you can say the same thing about stories poems and news.

On the other hand, a proficient reader can "hear the page" when they read a musical score.

These days most people get their stories off youtube and the TV and they get their music from mp3s and the radio.

You and I can, if we want, convey concepts to each other in words.

Musical notation, theory, literacy etc allow musicians to do the same thing wityh music without having to write reams and reams of cumbersome descriptive words like the ones you and I are using now.

If you want to learn to speak chinese, it makes sense to learn some characters at the same time so you can write to your chinese friends etc.

I think the problems you describe are due to a non creative education not down to whether kids are able to read.

When kids experience of music is to only play (say) exactly what they are told, it means they get no practise being creative or developing their ear.

Sad indeed, but not the fault of theory or notation.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: harmonic miner
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:03 AM

I'm very surprised no-one mentioned the Be Sharps by the way

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer's_Barbershop_Quartet

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:35 AM

Lox, you may be right about the lack of creative education, but now has been I think well proven that teaching people what is essentially a mechanical process, involving eye to brain to finger (dot on page straight to keyboard or recorder or whatever) bypasses the part of the brain that needs to be developed to interpret music fully (the auditory cortex, is it?).

This does not mean that everyone who learns this way will be unable to hear or interpret music, or be unable to improvise, play from memory etc, but it may mean that some people will not develop as fully as they would have done if music had been learned the other way round.

Obviously you can do the theory/written stuff as you go along, but the priority always needs to be sound/listening/making noises first - which is not how most UK kids are taught, sadly.

It;s not only the music teachers who have got this wrong.

The BBC - an audio medium managed to contrive language courses which used books as the primary reference, with just a little cassette tucked into the back cover for pronunciation.

As any fule kno, the best way to lear a language is to go to where they talk it and join in (just as toddlers do). Then catch up with the spelling and grammar afterwards.

Tom

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 10:55 AM

If B sharp exists - how come its not got its own house - like C Sharp?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Lox
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:23 AM

Tom - a fair comparison for what you describe would be the job of touch typist.

Many touch typists say that they have no idea what they have typed up, the information they process goes straight from eye to finger and they are able in many cases to chat away about unrelated subjects as they type.

That however is not an argument against reading.

And I agree that it is not a way of developing an understanding of music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 11:48 AM

There are people who write with intelligence and prescience. Some are literate, some are not.

I prefer to read the articles or books of people who are literate because they, in the course of having to acquire literacy, had more experience of a broader scale which means they can make more qualitative choices about their ideas, but not always.

There are many musicians who don't read music and know theory, great players, great feelers,expressive, communicate, and satisfy a musical experience.

Many of them have the humility not to make pronouncements about that with which they are unacquainted.

B sharp is the seventh note of a C# major scale. There are few instances where a folk performer would care or think about a C# scale and it isn't essential to some forms of music making. However, B# exists in many compositions by composers.

When it comes to musical composition, I think it's better to be sharp than to be flat.

If you are a brass player, than I must qualify that last statement.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:18 PM

/////But I would like to pick josepp up on this:

"I don't know why anyone would argue that [being able to read] is not a required ability. You're always a better musician for knowing it--always."

I'll agree that it's better to be able to read than not, because writing and reading is a great way to communicate music quickly and reliably, but there are two things you might like to consider which your posts suggest you have not.

Some people - specially certified dyslexics like me - are physically incapable of reading music (I've known all the theory all my life, and I can write it, but not read it back). People still seem to think I'm a decent composer, arranger and player. (Writing a 2 hour musical on commission at the moment, as it happens)./////

Sorry but you're disabled and you have to accept it. You can't do things most people can do. Sorry about that. But I'm not changing my opinion to suit you. You have your way because you have no choice. I do have the choice so I use it.

Sorry.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: josepp
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:22 PM

///Big clue: You don't need a book to listen to music.////

And you don't need a telescope to look at the moon. Does that mean you shouldn't do it?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:27 PM

Josepp, every time you start a thread you sound as though you're spoiling for a fight. According to you, things aren't regulated enough...

YouTube commenting behaviour is disgusting and should be thoroughly policed, goddammit!

People who pick up a musical instrument should read music, goddammit!

(Poor old Django - couldn't read a sodding note - and him with just a thumb and two useful fingers as well - goddammit!)

Why not try opening up a topic with something positive - nay, even benign - for a change? Relax - chill - have a good time - make music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST, Tom Bliss
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:30 PM

err - actually within that analogy; you were suggesting that people should ONLY look at the moon through a telescope, and not to do so was to risk cultural damage.

I don't have a telescope but think the moon looks nice through tress, or riding on clouds, or reflected on water.

I believe people should be free to look or not as suits them - but my warning was this: if you train people only look at the moon through a telescope you may deny them these beautiful images.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: GUEST,999
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 12:58 PM

Tom, Bruce M here. Congratulations on the commission.

josepp is a mediocre singer/guitar player compared to you, and I've heard both of you. You with your 'do it by ear' (same way I do it) works, and that is what really matters. I too never got the hang of reading music. I too understand the theory, and given the notation, I'm capable of working it out, but I have never done it enough to become adept at it. Dyslexia is a cast-iron sob to deal with. You have done so by developing a great memory for tunes and chords. Good on ya!

josepp, you seem to have no compassion for other people. It's all about joseep. Give it a fuckin' rest. You appear to be the south end of a horse goin' north.

Will Fly, it seems I agree with you although I lack your eloquence.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Will Fly
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 01:14 PM

I lack your eloquence.

Oh I don't know. "You appear to be the south end of a horse goin' north" sounds pretty eloquent to me! :-)

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: PoppaGator
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:36 PM

Music is sound.

Musical notation is a way to describe and record musical sound. It is, necessarily, less than perfect, and therefore involves all kinds of complicated subtleties in cases where an effort is being made to "write" musical sound with the utmost precision. Hence the current controversy.

This is NOT a case of "the chicken or the egg," where there is any possible doubt about "which came first." Music came first, and is absolutely primary; musical notation is secondary.

Not to denigrate music theory or musical literacy, which are as important in their own roles as reading-and-writing literacy. But reading and writing are not more important than the thoughts and ideas that they express, and certainly no more critical than spoken language.

Teaching and learning the craft of playing a musical instrument (including the voice) is not the same as a study of theory. As a student becomes more adept and advanced, different aspects of theory will occasionally come up and need to be explored. But the first and most basic effort should always be a concern with how to make a sound, the right sound, with the highest possible degree of musicality.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 02:38 PM

Folk tunes have typically been passed aurally from player to player over a number of years. Transcriptions are only interpretations of the tunes; many players embellish the tunes as they play.
Myself and a couple of friends when leading a tune session sometimes meet people who have just learnt the tune from a score and will suggest we are playing the wrong notes. Our usual response is, this is how we like to play it, we like the way it sounds. Music theory is OK as long as it doesn't get in the way of actually making live music.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: johncharles
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:28 PM

Dear josepp, put your money where you're mouth is and place some of your playing on youtube, we will then be able to see the benefits of an extensive theoretical background in music which many of us lack. Something with a B sharp in it would be nice.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: John P
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:30 PM

josepp says: Now, that was stupid, wasn't it? You know you're going to get proven wrong. I'm looking at sheet music for a song called "You Don't Know My Mind" and in the 4th measure--lo and behold!--a B-sharp.

Since you clearly didn't understand a thing of what I was talking about, it's hard for me to feel proved wrong. I'd normally enjoy making myself more clear to you, but you'd have to be a lot less of a jerk to make me want to.

I'll refresh it for you: It's about the fact that B-sharp exists not whether you've ever ecncountered in your music. Are we stright now?

No, it's about whether or not a teacher was a fraud and a danger to our culture because you heard second hand that he said that B# and C are the same note or something. And it has become about whether or not someone can be a good musician if they don't ever consider the concept of a B#.

Of course everyone here knows that B# exists, if you happen to be reading music in C#. Everyone also knows that, in equal temperment for most instruments, B# and C are the same note, the only difference being that it is more convenient to write one or the other depending on what key you're in.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:36 PM

You appear to be the south end of a horse goin' north.

Would that be Armstrong's horse?

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 03:50 PM

If B sharp exists - how come its not got its own house - like C Sharp?

Ah! didn't you know it has? It's next door to C sharp and they are both across the road from B natural and C natural.

In case you ask about the flats; they're all in a block at the end of the road.

Subject: RE: No such thing as a B-sharp
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Mar 11 - 04:01 PM

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