BS: US English: Definitions/Origins

Subject: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:11 AM

I appreciate some folks across the 'pond' can get stumped by British Englishisms, but the reverse is also true.

For example, in many westerns, a character may be descibed as 'ornery'.

I'm unsure of the meaning, also, what's the derivation - is it from 'ordinary'?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:13 AM

I always thought 'ornery' meant "awkward", "bad-tempered", etc.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: pdq
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:15 AM

A reasonable synonym for "ornery" would be "irascible"

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:15 AM

According to the two dictionaries I just consulted, it is from 'ordinary'. These days people use it to mean having an irritable disposition and it is synonymous with cantankerous. I think it also can mean stubborn.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:19 AM

Indeed--stubborn or irascible or cantankerous. I suspect the derivation from "ordinary" is from the sense of the word to denote "plain folks", or "blue collar" or even "lower-class" with a connotation of lacking breeding. I suppose in the nineteenth century, showing emotions might have been considered below the salt, eh?


A

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:20 AM

Why are you asking, John? Has someone described you as ornery?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:25 AM

No Dave, its because I don't know everything, like you do!

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:42 AM

Ah, yes, the famous Christmas carol I wonder as I wander out under the sky / how Jesus the Savior did come for to die / for poor ornery people like you and like I...

Ornery critters is mean.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:43 AM

'critters' I understand means 'animals' - from 'creatures'?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:57 AM

If you say so, John. My dictionary gives:

critter : (US Dial). A creature

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 11:58 AM

Yes, and crick = creek

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:00 PM

And crock==codwallop.


A

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Will Fly
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:15 PM

I think I can hazard a guess at where "diddleysquat" or "doodleysquat" might have come from... My favourite American word! I use it wherever I can, as in:

Q: Where are the car keys?
A: I don't know diddleysquat.

Q: What are the chords to (tune title)?
A: I don't know diddleysquat

As I say - great word!

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:22 PM

Amos, that's "codswallop". A codwallop either involves hit with a fish or something uncomfortable.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: artbrooks
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:24 PM

Actually, 'ornery' came into the English language early in the talking pictures era. A word was needed to describe the irascible but generally benevolent Gabby Hayes type and, as luck would have it, the studio had an objectionable French director named Henrí on contract. Consistent with the usual American practice of putting the stress on the incorrect syllable, he was normally called ON-ree. And so, a word was born.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 12:32 PM

A crock is an earthenware jar/jug/vessel.
An old crock, is an inhabitant of San Diego, with the initials AJ ☺☻

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:02 PM

Ornery (which some people change to onnery) dates to 1816 at least. Henri came over with Lafayette, and has been with us ever since. Turner Classic Movies shows a lot of his stuff.

Pedantically, a fellow named U. Brown in his journal, 1816, wrote, "The Land is old, completely worn out, the farming extremely ornary in general."
Perhaps some ancestor of Artbrooks decided Brown meant ordinary.

The word appears in its current meaning in 1861 when the writer wrote, "Good company betters the orneriest sort of weather."
Both the quotations from the OED.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:15 PM

Rather specializing as in 'stubborn' or 'cantankerous', I think of 'ornery' as meaning 'difficult'. People can be ornery, cattle and horses can be ornery. Situations can be 'difficult' but nor ornery. Orneriness implies a degree of willfulness.

Growing up, I think I heard it pronounced 'ONree' more often. By the way, I think Artbrooks is pulling our collective leg. :)

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 05:45 PM

Ebbie, onree and onnery first came to my mind also because I can't recall ever hearing ornery. A regional thing? Raised in the West.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:14 PM

ornery is the word, and a lot of folks know it, but 'onree' is easier to say when you're just chatting. "He's an onree/onrey son-of a-gun"

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Orgins
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Jan 10 - 06:37 PM

It was ONree in our family, too. I can still hear my dad saying someone or critter was an "ONree ol' cuss."

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Mr Happy
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 06:30 AM

My! I never expected such a comprehensive response - 'Extraornery??'

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 07:59 AM

I've never understood the term (used quite often in threatening way by my father when we kids were being ornery) "If you don't stop now, I'm gonna crease your skull."

To me it was nonsensical because a skull is not fold-able? Did he mean he would iron our heads? How silly! Or was it, since my mom had told me she used an iron to straighten her hair in college?

Has anyone else heard term "crease your skull" or near variation?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 08:18 AM

Yep...means to put a dent in it, as in whack you with a 2x4. Or, if you are from Pittsburgh like Herself, that would be 'dint'.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:47 AM

From childhood (I can still see the little "frame" in the comic book), I recall that one way of capturing a mustang/wild horse in order to tame it - according to Western comics and feature films, that is - was to shoot the poor crittur through the neck in order to stun it, and I'm sure this was called "creasing". I think RM Ballantyne also refers to this practice in "The Dog Crusoe".

Don't know how similar you'll find the expression, Virginia Tam, but in Glasgow there's an expression referring to making some cranial alterations: one characteristically abrasive threat is to "sherpin' yer heid", presumably by grinding it along the ground. In Scots, what you've referred to as a "dent" would be a "dinge" (soft "G"), while the similar-sounding "dunt" is actually a bump, blow, strike, hit &c. And "critter"/"crittur" might be derived more immediately from Irish "cratur" (often given in writing as "craythur", to mimic one pronunciation), which is generally used in a rather gently regretful way, often in phrase, "ah, the poor cratur".   

"

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:00 AM

The one that defeats me (and I asked about this one here some time ago, but I'm damned if I can remember the answer!) is the saying that something 'sucks' meaning it's 'unpleasant', 'bad' or 'no good'.

Sucks what? And why?

I understand saying that something is 'shit', because that's likening it to an unpleasant substance, but 'sucks'....????

It don't make no sense, Guvnah! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:35 AM

While "sucks" tends to be thought of as an Americanism, I think it occurs in the sense mentioned in William Golding's "Lord of the Flies" (mid- or late 1950s?), where someone says to the rather hypochrondriacal character Piggy, "Sucks to your Auntie", or maybe his "Grandma" (brought up by this female relative, he evidently sees her as the fount of all wisdom, and often begins sentences with, "My Auntie/Granny says...").

Why the word "sucks" is used thus, however, eludes me, unless a loud "sucking" sound were a traditional way of expressing disapproval; an alternative to booing?   I remember at school, a long time ago, that one variant of "Teacher's Pet" was, "a sook", that is, someone who "sucked up" to the teacher, and instances of this kind of fawning behaviour were immediately greeted by a chorus of sucking sounds (put you in mind of four calves around a cow's udder). Aye, things were rough in them days.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:51 AM

Saying something 'sucks' is unfortunately one of those creeping Americanisms taking over here when we already have a perfectly good word of our own for the concept: in this case we would say that a thing 'stinks'. Other examples are 'waiting in line' for our 'queuing (up)', and 'off limits' for our 'out of bounds'— a while back I OP'd a thread on this very topic, but it will bear repeating here as the subject has re-emerged.

As to 'sucks' — I have always assumed some ref intended to fellatio? Tho the old English school slang, of 'sucks to...' (sometimes even expanded to 'Yah sucks boo to...') whatever it is intended to denigrate, might well also be an influence, as ABCD suggests above.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:08 AM

I don't think "sucks" is an Americanism. Like an Buachaill I remember that a sook was what I'd now call a brown-noser.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:11 AM

On a farm, unless it is a chicken or sheep killer, there is little worse than an "egg-suckin'" dog.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:34 AM

Some years ago there was a cretain level of outrage in America because characters on network TV (Bart Simpson in particular?)were starting to say XYZ "sucks."

I first heard the word so used in the early '60s, and the assumption then was that it had a sexual reference: less refined characters often added/add direct objects to make this plain enough.   (The sexual assumptions of the day rather differed from those now current.) In my experience, the expression took a few more years to catch on. Since then, it's pretty much replaced the once universal "stinks."

I can only guess what "Sucks to your Auntie" might mean. I don't believe "sucks" is ever used that way here.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 11:59 AM

Americans use "off limits" and "out of bounds" interchangeably and about equally - with the exception that only "out of bounds" has a specific meaning in sports. Actually, I always thought that "off limits" came to us from the UK during WW2 while "out of bounds" originated in the US.

Does "suck" have some connection to fellatio? I dunno - I remember from my childhood that it was what you did to a popsicle or a lollipop (also called a sucker), and fellatio wasn't on my personal horizon at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

No, artbrooks — 'out of bounds' was always the term used in British schools for areas where pupils were not allowed to go. {'Bounds' is an old term for 'permitted official boundaries' - many towns still annually re-enact ancient ceremonies of 'beating the bounds' ['beat' being used in the sense of patrolled area, as in a sentry's beat], in which the Mayor & Corporation will walk round the official 'bounds' of the town to establish their claim to authority over the land within it.} We never heard 'off limits' here, it is my impression, until intro'd by US servicemen stationed here during WWii, when certain parts of English towns &c would be declared 'off limits' to US service personnel. Interesting that your & my impressions should be so utterly opposed in recollection!

I see what you mean re sucking popsicles — but why should such an activity, as opposed to fellatio, carry any pejorative overtone?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: artbrooks
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:05 PM

But "out of bounds" means the same thing in the US, although not in reference to schools, particularly. I really have no objection to your being right - but why do you insist that I am wrong in saying that they are interchangeable in the US? For all I know, my ancestors brought the term to the Massachusetts Bay Colony in 1542.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:29 PM

The slang expression "sucks" seems to be both English and American, in print in the later 19th C.
It took hold in America, less so in England.

N. W. Lincolnshire (England) Glossary, 1877- An imposition, a disappointment.
Dow, Sermons, 1856- A monstrous humbug, a grand suck-in.

S. de Vere, Americanisms, 1872- "Suck-in, as a noun and verb, is a graphic Western phrase to express deception."

The sexual connotations seem to be more recent developments.

Many meanings to 'suck'; a plow (plough), the "hissing sound of waves," liquids, to exhaust, etc.

Above quotations and citations from the OED.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:44 PM

"Don't get sucked in" AFAIK bears no relation to "It sucks." Again AFAIK, it has never been "taboo."

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 01:48 PM

When I was in junior (maybe sr.)high school, I remember it was quite the insult to be told to "go suck a big, green weenie." At the time, I don't think many understood the connotations,

Nowadays I don't think most people even think about it re' fellatio. It's just a catchall word for when something seems wrong, unhappy, etc. as in "That sucks!" when a child is told they may not go out.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 02:14 PM

I just mentioned the word shagging to TSO (no I was not making advances) talking about scene in a film. And he commented that as an American, I don't use the word shagging. Which is true. I don't think I have used the term before to indicate that some one was.... "gettin down."

Is this only a UK term, or has it made any purchase stateside?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Rowan
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 09:12 PM

"Like a shag on a rock" has interesting connotations in Oz, as well as in the UK, VT.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Jan 10 - 10:11 PM

It was prevalent in 1999 when the movie came out, Austin Powers 2- the Spy Who Shagged Me, but I don't hear it that often.

The difference between UK and US on "shag" brings up some interesting images...shag carpeting takes on a whole new *personna* when the UK definition is applied.:-)

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Mr Happy
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 07:00 AM

Shag:

Copulation

A bird

Kind of tobacco

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:36 AM

Also, as katlaughing said above, a type of carpet made with 1 or 1 1/2 inch loose loops of yarn. This is probably the most common use of the word in the US...as in "what kind of carpet do you have?" "We have shag."

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: sl
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 10:22 AM

this can be very interesting /usefull

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: s&r
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 11:29 AM

We have that in the UK usually 'shag pile'

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 06:17 PM

Hitch old Dobbin to the shag-



Oh, sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 06:57 PM

I'd always thought that "sucks" was in some way an extension of the 1960s Graffito ""Gravity is bunk, the Earth sucks".

Maybe not though.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jan 10 - 09:14 PM

It sucks.... so bad that it makes one suddenly suck air into their lungs in shock or almost disbelief. I thought that was common knowledge???

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 02 Feb 10 - 02:41 PM

But that's the person sucking; not the Bad Thing?

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 11:57 AM

Probably a corruption of original meanings, but I recall on ol' fart back ca. 1950 who extended the usage to always say "Well, that sucks the fun out of it."

Other words sometimes replaced "fun," and "fun" itelf might have implied other meanings.

"Sucky" was also commonly used as an adjective - probably more commonly in late 50s to early 60s.

In my region, ornery generally was pronounced arn-ree, with the "arn" bit rhyming with "are." Used generally to describe someone who "caused trouble for others" but interchangeably to describe someone ill-tempered (common), malicious (occasional), or just "prone to practical jokes" (probably most frequent).

John

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:37 PM

Did anyone pronounce it OR-....? Or know how to spell it?

When I looked the word up in the dictionary, I am sorry to say, I started with ON...., as I had known it from childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: CapriUni
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 02:07 PM

(from Ebbie)

On a farm, unless it is a chicken or sheep killer, there is little worse than an "egg-suckin'" dog.

Well, I'll be. When I was in elementary school, in the 1970s (about 8 or 9 years old),* the phrase "That sucks eggs!" was considered outright obscenity, or about as close to it as an 8 or 9-year-old would get.   

I've been assuming all along that it was because it sounded so much like "sucks ass" ('arse,' for the Brits): i.e. depravity and s**t-eating, and that 'eggs' was, indeed, a substitute for 'ass'. It wasn't long before we'd bowlderize ourselves, and leave the "eggs" half unspoken, but implied.

We'd get in trouble with our teachers, too, if they heard us using the phrase. So I wouldn't be surprised if they had the same assumptions we did, as too the phrase's origins.

... A generation later, "Sucks" has lost all of its obscene connotations, and even shows up in the dialog of prime-time sitcoms.

And to think, "eggs" was as innocent as eggs, all along. ... Of course, none of us (teachers or schoolchildren) had experience of living on a farm...

*In the Mid-Hudson region of New York State.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Feb 10 - 06:07 PM

On a farm, unless it is a chicken or sheep killer, there is little worse than an "egg-suckin'" dog.

There's a song sung by Johnny Cash called "Dirty Old Egg-Suckin' Dog".

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:09 AM

In all the years I've lived in England and Ireland I never heard anyone using the word "shitstorm". German linguists voted it "Anglicism of the year" in 2012 , according to the BBC report below . Is it widely in the US?
You'd have thought that Angela Merkel, who used the term in a speech she made last week , would have at least changed the "storm" bit to "strom" to make it sound more authentically German . x


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23142660

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: GUEST,mayomick
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:11 AM

shitzen , mein cookie has gone kaput .the previous post about the shitzenstrom was from me .

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Lighter
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 08:26 AM

Norman Mailer's WW2 GIs use it in "The Naked and the Dead."

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 02 Jul 13 - 10:54 AM

Aunt BBC has not got it quite correctly. I live in Germany, and my impression is that "Shitstorm" is used as a technical term for "public outcry at Facebook and other Internet media". Obviously the word was not heard, but read by German speakers on such an occasion, and adopted for the specific meaning. Such technical usages are normally short-lived.

In dialects of northern Germany, where Merkel was born and raised, the word "Schiet" is used for "mud" (as in Mudcat), not vulgar at all. So rather than batting an eyelid, she rightly thought herself speaking in vogue for young voters. However, not all of these may appreciate a politican using their jargon.

Subject: RE: BS: US English: Definitions/Origins
From: Jim McLean
Date: 03 Jul 13 - 07:30 AM

She was only the tobacconist's daughter but the best shag in the shop.
A dirty entendre.