Need help identifying a fiddle tune

Subject: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:57 PM

The tune starts about 20 seconds into this track - does anyone know the name of it? This is from a 1941 recording of a NY fiddler (Catskill region), whose other tunes seem to be the commonplace ones such as Soldier's Joy, Turkey in the Straw, Fisher's Hornpipe, Devil's Dream, etc.

Thanks for taking a listen...

http://rapidshare.de/files/7740800/20_Track_20.wma.html

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Janie
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:05 PM

See if this works. http://rapidshare.de/files/7740800/20_Track_20.wma.html

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:10 PM

I'm listening to it now. If Mudcatters can't ID it I may know someone who could, and if necessary I'll email her. She's out on the road right now or I'd ask now! :~)

~S~

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GLoux
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:24 PM

I must be stupid, but I clicked on your link expecting to hear the tune you're asking me to listen to and I'm presented with something else that I guess you're expecting me to work through to answer your question.

Well, if you're not willin' to put in the work to make it easy for me to answer your question, I'm not willin' to overcome your laziness...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:39 PM

Dave isn't being lazy, but he's chosen a rather annoying site to post his sound clip. It's easy enough to find so long as the browser you're using understands the javascript.

Can't be helped. Both parts of the tune sound vaguely familiar in a generic anglo-scottish sort of fashion, but that's the way with so many "old time" tunes. Dave: can you tell us anything more about the recording? Where did you find it? Who made it? What were the musicians' names? Where exactly in the Catskills?

That info won't make it more likely that I will be able to identify it, but it may very well help somebody else who knows more about the subject.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:57 PM

Thank you Janie for the clicky.   This was my first time uploading a sound file to a website, so please forgive me if it's cumbersome. The site was suggested to me by another Mudcatter, and it was all I could do to get the tune posted there. Greg, no need to be so harsh.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the first page and click "Free", then wait the 10-15 seconds for the thing to download, then click on the file name, you'll hear the tune. Again, my apologies for the extra hoops you have to jump through.

The fiddler is Walden van Wagner, and I believe the guitar player is his son. He was from around Claryville NY in the Catskills.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:16 PM

It opened quite easily for me. Be nice, people...

~S~

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM

How it opens seems to depend on luck. The first time I tried it, I got there OK (from Joe Offer's instructions in the other thread) and it opened but of course it was a WMA, not the MP3 advertised and my Linux box isn't set up to play them...

Got in after a struggle on laptop but couldn't open it again - kept telling me something else was downloading and I needed premium service. Went back onto Linux and it told me I had to wait 8 seconds...

Anyway as a temp measure, it is at http://www.folkinfo.org/unknown.wma

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:42 PM

sorry about that site...it was the first one I could think of.(They make their $$$ selling no-waiting access to loads of big files)...I know there are some other sites that host files for free that are not so tricky....I will try to find a selection and post them. (and yes, it does require javascript be working)...still thinking about the tune)

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM

It's a polka.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM

Well, yes; it's fairly clearly based on a British polka or two. But which?

The javascript is designed for recent browsers only, and won't work in older ones. Thanks to Jon, we don't need to worry about that now.

Probably the discussion should continue in this thread rather than the previous one ( How do I post an MP3? ), which was really just an FAQ question.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM

AFS 12,310: Walden Van Wagner (plus guitar). Catskill region, New York. Recorded by Norman Cazden, 1948 and 1952.



THIS MIGHT HELP

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:54 PM

Here is a site that might be better to ask at

http://fiddlefork.com/ you have to register, but then they have a forum similar to this...and LOTS of tunes in .midi format.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:57 PM

iT'S FROM THE LIBRARY OF CONGRESS FIELD RECORDINGS COLLECTION

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:57 PM

(I just listened to 30-40 well-known fiddle tunes at this site and it didn't 'seem' to be there...but there were many more I didn't listen to)

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:58 PM

a href="http://www.loc.gov/folklife/guides/Fiddlers.html">http://www.loc.gov/folklife/guides/Fiddlers.html

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 11:02 PM

http://www.umaine.edu/folklife/mf008.htm

MAYBE GARGOYLE KNEW nORMAN CAZDEN

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: DonMeixner
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 11:11 PM

Such nerve, Calling Dave lazy. And he even takes time to tune a banjo. He is obviously willing to do more work than the job is worth. This is not laziness, its something else but not lazy.

Don " Duck and Cover" Meixner

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 02:55 AM

I'd agree with comment above that it's a polka, but lots of things can be played "polka style" so it's not really safe to assume that's what was intended.

The voice at the beginning mumbles something about:

"we're going to play ...Forrest Rogers .*.. where is Forrest Rogers? He's in the army and I wish him the best of luck.

At the .*.. unintelligible, the speaker may have said something about (something) "Dodgers" or may have repeated a reference to "Rogers." There's an additional "Pete Lonely Yard?" perhaps. This last comment is very indistinct.

Suspicion: written (or arranged) by a Forrest Rogers? (or Forest Rodgers, etc)? Or maybe just dedicated to him? Can't tell.

John

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:38 AM

Re-listening to the voice comments at the beginning:

Very faint voice in the background asks:

"Alright, what's the name of the song."

Indistinct mumbler sounds like:

"This is Vernon, this piece we're going to play we got from Forest Rogers …Pete's Lonely Yard."

Background voice, much louder asks:

"And where is Forest Rogers?"

"Answer clear:

"He's in the Army …" etc.

The best I can make out – without being really certain – is that a group with a member called "Vernon" (or "Vern" with an attached mumble) got the tune from someone named "Forest Rogers," and they called the tune "Pete's Lonely Yard." The "Lonely Yard" bit sounds fairly clear, the "Pete's" has an attached "uh" perhaps and is less distinct, so a bit uncertain.

Spellings of course are guesses, and none of the voice parts that matter are distinct enough to be really certain.

Any info on the source of the sound file? The informal program, careful track ident, etc. sounds a bit like maybe an audition or a contest tryout/preliminary, perhaps?

John

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 08:06 AM

Thanks everyone for your efforts. John, on the part where you are hearing "Pete's Lonely Yard", I think what he's saying is that it's a piece "we got from Forest Rogers from Peakville (or Peekville) NY".

As for the title of the piece, the closest I can make out is that he say's "this is Vernon Wheat".   Hmm....

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 08:25 AM

OK, thanks to John & Bill D, I now have the same question posted on the FiddleFork website - I'll let you know what happens.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 08:26 AM

If it's a Library of Congress field recording, maybe the MP3 is online already at the LOC site. What do the field notes there say?

~S~

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 08:39 AM

I think it is a 1941 Catskills version of Dennis Murphy's polka.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:07 AM

The folklorist who recorded the tune, Herbert Halpert, listed it as "untitled" in his field notes.

Guest, I'll look for Dennis Murphy's Polka, thanks.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:25 AM

Dave, but IS it online at the LOC? In that case, people can open it easily from there?

Guest, what are you going on for that identification? How did you come to "1941" as a date? Please tell us more!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:45 AM

I meant the year it was recorded. It is somewhat different in some of it's notes but basically the same tune as DMP.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:54 AM

I don't know if it's online at LOC or not, Susan. The recording I have is from the Archive of Traditional Music at Indiana University.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: IanC
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:56 AM

Denis Murphy's Polka is a version of Geordie Mackintyre. You might try and see if this is nearer.

:-)

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:08 AM

Dave, is than an online archive?

Have you (or anyone) gone through the LOC material referenced above to see if it's the same tune?

~S~

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GLoux
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 07:27 PM

Apology to Dave for coming off harsh. Annoyed is probably a better description because I was asked to sign up for a premium service when I clicked on the link. I'm still unable to get through...must be that Javascript problem. I'm still annoyed that I can't help, but I'll be friendly about it, okay?

I learned a long time ago that you have to be really nice to people who actually tune banjos...

-Greg

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 09:41 PM

GLoux -

Although the site first linked makes it look like you have to sign up to the premium service, there is a button near the bottom of the page that lets you "play for free." There is a built-in 15 or 20 second delay, just to make "free" less convenient, but if you click the "free play" button and be patient it should go automatically to the tune you want.

Like you, I found the site "philosophy" annoying, but I didn't have any problem getting the file once I figured out what was going on. (And my dial-up is so slow I've had to learn great patience.)

John

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Stewart
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:46 PM

I don't know why I've done this, I guess I have too much time or like a good puzzle, but I've transcribed the tune into an abc file.

X:1
T:Unknown Polka
M:2/4
L:1/16
K:G
C4E2G2|c4G2c2|B4A4|A2G2 B2A2|G4B2d2|g4f2g2|a4g4|
g2f2 g4|C4E2G2|c4G2c2|B4A4|A2G2 B2A2|G4B2d2|g4B4|c8|c8:|
|:G4e4|e2d2 c2B2|A4=f4|=f2e2 d2c2|B2G2 B2d2|
g4f2g2|a4g4|g2f2 g4|G4e4|e2d2 c2B2|
A4=f4|=f2e2 d2c2|B2G2 B2d2|g4B4|c8|c8:|

It's definitely a polka, but certainly not Denis Murphy's as someone suggested above (not even close!). And I haven't been able to match it to anything on the web. So here it is for someone else to identify.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: georgeward
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:57 PM

Thanks to GuestJON for putting it at folkinfo.org. I couldn't get it from Rapidshare either.
Boy, it sounds familiar ! I don't think a title is going to pop up in my memory though. It is quintessential old rural upstate NY (and, as such, it sounds like about a dozen other tunes). Dave, have you asked Jim Kimball ?

Sorry I missed you in Albany this afternoon BTW. I'd hoped to make it. Hope it went well,

- George

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Stewart
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:59 PM

Just cut a paste the abc into Concertina.net and you'll get a midi and a gif score.

S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:28 PM

Yes George, I did ask Jim Kimball, and he had a similar response to yours.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:42 PM

This reminds me of early attempts to play O Carolan tunes on Violin and so called original Civil-war works by Jay Ungar..

better shut up, and duck... incomming missiles...

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Anglo
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 12:10 AM

Well, since everyone here is putting up and ducking I may as well too.

A fiddler often learned a tune on a small number of hearings and then worked it out on his instrument as technique and memory allowed, then others learned from him. Like oral (aural) tradition with a ballad tune, it changed, often becoming quite different from its original source. So call it "Forest Rogers' Polka" and be done.

And Guest, I did know Norman Cazden, but that doesn't help here.

Now I'll get out of the way...

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 12:17 AM

I still think he meant to play Denis Murphy's polka...so what if he played it in G. As for the ABC, the map is not the territory.

But didn't Norman Cazden record Walden and his son? Being wrong isn't bad or stupid: just wrong, you bonehead eggheads. At least I worked on it. bleh!

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 02:07 AM

It sounds something like the Silverton Polka

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 03:51 AM

Well, it certainly isn't remotely like Denis Murphey's! Where can we hear Silverton for comparison?

Yes, Cazden recorded the Waldens; but not in 1941. Dave Ruch could have helped by telling us everything he knew at the start (or answering my questions), instead of gradually leaking out the information. There is a technique to asking questions in forums like this, and telling us everything you already know may prevent people wandering up blind alleys or wasting time on mere speculation.

We are all here because we want to help. Do, please, do your best to help us to help you.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 06:05 AM

I should have thought about this when I made the wma file available. I've put it at http://hosted.folkinfo.org/unknown.wma

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GLoux
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:00 AM

I finally got to hear it, and while it sounds quite familiar, I can't put a name to it...

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:26 AM

Silverton Polka is on Melodeon Greats

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Stewart
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 01:40 PM

Silverton Polka (listen to the soundclip) isn't even close.

But, as I think someone else on this thread said, the name is not important. Heck, most fiddle players at the sessions I go to don't remember most of the names of tunes, they just know the tune. It's a nice tune and if you take the abc file I transcribed to Concertina.net you will have the dots (gif file) and a midi that plays a bit slower than the original recording. So just enjoy the tune. Call it the "Mudcat Polka" or whatever you like.

Cheers, S. in Seattle

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 04:17 PM

Point well taken, Malcolm. I've mostly been running this week, checking in for a minute or two and commenting whenever I can; I should have waited until I could present the question in a more complete and user-friendly way. I do appreciate all of your help.

Susan, the LOC site lists recordings of fiddlers in the archive's collections, but to the best of my knowledge does not contain track lists, etc. They are usually kind enough to mail out the finding aids and other notes for their archived collections, but the notes will likely contain track listings at best, which won't do me any good in this case as I wont be able to hear the tunes they got from van Wagner.

As for your question about the Archive or Traditional Music in Indiana, their website is here (you'll have to cut & paste): http://www.indiana.edu/~libarchm. I don't believe they have any sound files online, but you can order recordings of many of the things in their archive (for your own private use) pretty reasonably.

Greg, thanks. Do you know how long it takes to tune a banjo? Me neither.

So, as for the tune, I like Anglo's idea, since nobody seems to know it by any other name. I posted it on the FiddlerFork website as suggested, and as of an hour ago, there had been 79 listens and only 2 responses, both of which were to the effect that they knew someone else who plays the tune, and they'll try to find out.

I'm wondering if van Wagner doesn't say "Burning Wheat" (rather than "Vernon Wheat" or "Vernon") when asked what the name of the tune is.

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 07:02 PM

The LOC site does in fact list track names of their online sound files... generally, if you search within an online collection there by artist, subject, collector, etc., up pops a list of tunes from their database.

I was curious whether you had used them in your research. If not, it would be a good place to look around. I use it a lot for spirituals and early gospel (Lomax collections for example). In the Lomax material, there is some info on each item on the page that shows the item and the link to its sound file, but the field notes are located in another area of the collection-- they specify which section of field notes to browse.

Someone has posted here that there is an LOC connection with this piece-- originally I hoped the LOC might have the sound file online, so that you wouldn't need to jump through so many hoops just so people could hear it. Now, tho, I am suggesting you check there to see if any other fiddlers may have been captured playing it, and if so what the field notes might tell you about it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 07:15 PM

That sounds like a French-Canadian reel. They all have a polka-like sound. I don't recognise it, though.

Brian

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 11:52 AM

Susan, yes I have used LOC recordings for some of my research - the LOC is a wonderful resource. And thanks for the additional info on the online collections.

Over on the FiddleFork site suggested by Bill D, someone has just come up with a very similar tune, which to my ears sounds like it was taken from the same common tune as this one in question, with both versions have gone through the "folk process" described above by Anglo.

Here it is - I'll try to create a blue clicky thing and see what happens. http://www.mp3.com/albums/74279/summary.html

Have a listen to track #12, called Loggerman's Reel/Dulcimer Reel by John McCutcheon. It is Loggerman's Reel that you hear a snatch of, and it sounds like a version of the van Wagner tune. The A & B parts are reversed, and certainly there are melodic differences, but a very similar theme & feel. McCutcheon got it from NY hammered dulcimer player Paul Van Arsdale, who got it from a radio broadcast of a Canadian logger/fiddler in the 1950s!

Subject: RE: Need help identifying a fiddle tune
From: Dave Ruch
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 11:56 AM

By the way, this doesn't mean the tune is called "Loggerman's Breakdown" by anyone except Van Arsdale & McCutcheon. Paul Van Arsdale may very well have named it that for lack of a "proper" name, and in tribute to the source he got it from. I'll dig into my Folk Legacy notes on him to see if there's anything there on this tune. But at least, I think, we have found another version of the tune.