BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote

Subject: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Gervase
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:16 AM

I'd be intrigued to know if any non-US 'Catters have signed up for the project proposed by the Guardian newspaper to influence non-decided voters in Clark County OH, seen as one of the crucial areas in the presidential election.
Details can be found here.
It seems to have stirred up a can of worms (if this is anything to go by), and my own feelings are mixed.
I registered and received the name and address of a bloke in Springfield, but I'm not sure if I can write and send a letter. How would I react to someone else telling me what they thought of something? What right have I got to put a point of view over and above another American, an Iraqi or anyone else for that matter?
It's a tricky one. My own feelings on the issue are very strong indeed, but distilling them into a coherent and persuasive letter isn't easy.
Anyone else in a similar position?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:42 AM

I saw it but decided to stay well clear of it. Even though both sides feel if the other is elected it could be damaging to the world as a whole, I can't see any way that this idea would help.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:49 AM

I just signed up to see what would happen and was informed that they have already filled their list, and advised me to come back in four years' time.

Hope I'm around then, urging someone to re-elect Kerry.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:40 PM

Well, I'm a US citizen not from Ohio, but I have to say I think this is a Very Bad Idea. While a few citizens might appreciate this effort, I don't believe most will. When news of this gets out in their local media, it will most likely backfire, and send voters into the Bush camp in droves.

God knows the US government doesn't honor the sovereignty of other nations (obviously), but this should truly be a no brainer. The citizens of other nations trying to influence US elections will generally be viewed as unwelcome meddling in the US election.

For the life of me, I don't understand the level of hysteria over this presidential election. Sure we all hate Bush, but this sort of thing is far beyond the pale of reasonable, IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:45 PM

And, I would add, what were they thinking when they concocted this plan?

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 01:46 PM

If you want to enciyurage your man in Springfield (Homer Simpson?) to vote for Kerry, you'd probably be best to send a letter going on about what a great guy George Bush is.

And I'd not be surprised if there are people writing letters saying "vote Kerry" who are really intending to help Bush....   Not that there are very many people in this country who would be for Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:45 PM

Use a real stamp rather than a printed frank of some kind...who knows - they might be collectors.

Personally, as a prospective voter in a contested state (New Mexico), I haven't seen or heard anything in the last few weeks that is going to change my (admittedly closed) mind, so I just throw it all away so that this junk mail doesn't get me too annoyed at the candidates I like.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: DougR
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:50 PM

Were one of the major newspapers in the U. S. to implement a program intended to influence the election of a government in any other country I would be incensed. The Guardian, which is often quoted here on the Mudcat as a reliable source, does nothing to enhannce its reputation, in my eyes at least, by implementing this program.

I don't think it will have any impact on the election however.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:16 PM

"Hope I'm around then, urging someone to re-elect Kerry."

Well said, EP. My chuckle for the day. It will drive the Republicans nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:33 PM

Attention English:

Mind your own elections.

Also note that if not for Tony Blair and George Bush's initiatives there would not have been a vote in Afghanistan and there would be no vote in Iraq this coming January.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 11:54 PM

OG:

Just as no one has any assurance that you are American, so too do you have no assurance who else is American.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 12:29 AM

Brucie:

What does that mean? It does not make any sense to me.

so too do you have no??? My wife teaches english here in America. I will ask her to decode it.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:03 AM

The Guardian is the newspaper of choice in our household and I generaly think highly of it. In this instance though, I think they have been seriously misguided. I can only see such an email putting people's backs up - I know the effect an email would have on me if the situation was reversed.

I suppose the only slight ray of hope is that reporting of this in the US may give an idea of how strong anti-bush feeling is amongst many in the UK. I don't suppose that will influence anyone though.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,longpecker redneck
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:45 AM

I have just started using this site because I thought it was supposed to deal with musical issues.I now find that it is a vehicle for Guardian reading psuedo intellectuals to view there half arsed opinions about every thing under the sun except music.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:13 AM

Well, it's a lot more than that, longpecker redneck (love the name) but feel free to stay above the BS line where it is mostly all things musical.

I have to say that I also thought the Guardian was going further than any newspaper ever would..but if you did read the website, you'd see it wasn't as much about backing a candidate that you from another country had no voice in voting for, but just to let people in the states know that the rest of the world is both watching and directly involved whether we like it or not.

Me, I would have offered up Kerry, but I would also have made it clear that I WAS a US voter and therefore quite partison in my wanting them to first of all, register, and second of all, know how both the candidates were thought of outside of the US.

As it turned out, the list was closed. I'll have to keep my pseudo intellectual thoughts to myself.

..xx..e

(PS-I only WISH that most Americans were as well informed about other governments outside their own. It is to me, a county living in a bubble that was burst for the first time on 9/11, and still would rather blow up another one to hide in than join the rest of the world and work together to solve it's problems...whoops there I am, spreading more of that pseudo-intellectual garbage. Maybe I'll try to get a job at the Guardian.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:31 AM

In fact the Guardian isn't advising its readers as to which candidate they should be advocating - the site gives information about pro-Bush organisations which would be of relevance to people wishing to back Bush. Here's the Guardian's run-down on it - nothing whatsoever in it favouring one candidate over the other.

True enough, pro-Bush Guardian readers would be in a decided minority, but then that would probably apply even with right-wing newspapers here. If Bush goes down in November there'll be remarkably few people over here who'll be sorry. And the more pro-American people here are, the more anti-Bush their feelings.

Still I see from today's paper that Bush has one friend this side of the water - Vladimir Putin has said he wants Bush to win. The KGB is on your side, Dubya...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Gervase
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 06:28 AM

As I won't be writing, anyone's welcome to send a letter to my contact if they want to PM me for his postal address (Must be sent by October 22 - the address is culled from the publicly avaialable records in Clark County, so there should be no issues of data protection involved). Maybe a pithy letter from Old Guy or longpecker redneck would prove persuasive in a way that would warm the hearts of pseudo-intellectuals everywhere!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: BanjoRay
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 06:45 AM

Yesterday's Guardian had a superb page of letters from Americans incensed at the whole idea - I now have a much better idea of what Americans really think about the British. We're all tea drinking losers with yellow teeth.
Superb!
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Stu
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 07:44 AM

Excellent idea!

I don't think it will make a jot of difference, but perhaps may get the message across that the results of the US elections effect people all over the world, not just citizens of the States. May make them realise they have a burden of responsibility on their shoulders that goes beyond the borders of their own land.

stigWeard
(Tea-drinking pseudo-subintellectual with wonky yellow teeth)

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:09 AM

Just when was the first election held in the UK?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 09:37 AM

Depends on your definitions. The "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" has only existed since 1922. The earliest date you could really count would be the Act of Union with Scotland back in 1707, which set up a United Kingdom Parliament for England, Wales and Scotland, so 1710 would be the date I think.

Of course they were run a bit different in those days. The first one resembling a modern one in any way would have been 1832 with the Reform Act, and even then the electorate was pretty small.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 12:27 PM

Oh, too funny. There's no reason to read Mudcat BS; switch to the Guardian:

"Have you not noticed that Americans don't give two shits what Europeans think of us? Each email someone gets from some arrogant Brit telling us why to NOT vote for George Bush is going to backfire, you stupid, yellow-toothed pansies ... I don't give a rat's ass if our election is going to have an effect on your worthless little life. I really don't. If you want to have a meaningful election in your crappy little island full of shitty food and yellow teeth, then maybe you should try not to sell your sovereignty out to Brussels and Berlin, dipshit. Oh, yeah - and brush your goddamned teeth. . . ."

What a grand project for advancement of International Relations. This beats Fox hands down.

The Guardian

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 12:46 PM

I know there's supposed to be a lot of anti-American feeling around the world, but I get the feeling there are Americans who could leave the rest of us standing at that sort of thing.

But remember the Guardian's idea here isn't actually to influence the election, it's to get a few more readers, and work up a couple of interesting features, like the one featuring the entertaining Limey-hating responses.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:13 PM

They should have billed it as their new Reality Game: Taunt Homer.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:16 PM

Those letters made REAL funny reading. Boss Hogg has been cloned too many times it appears.

But........at the bottom of the link it allows three 'prominent' people to state their views....John Le Carre, Antonia Fraser and a Prof from Oxford Uni.

The Oxford Uni Prof says that if Bush is to be re-elected, then American tourists should learn how to affect Canadian accents real fast.

And that is the shame of it. The Boss Hoggs probably don't travel too well...'everythings too darned foreign.' But the genuine USA traveller who didn't vote for the shrub and does have an interest in the world outside their backyard, will be the one who is subject to the inevitable backlash.And I really think there will be one.

Although I do agree that The Guardian knew this would sell copy, I think they also knew it would fuel the Yank hating that is gaining momentum. And that disappoints me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 01:51 PM

"Although I do agree that The Guardian knew this would sell copy, I think they also knew it would fuel the Yank hating that is gaining momentum. And that disappoints me."

I agree wholeheartedly. Having lived in both Europe and the US, I think they anti-American sentiment is much stronger in Europe, that anti-European sentiment is in the US. Much stronger. This sort of thing only reinforces the anti-Americanism that is so prevalent in the UK these days. The French, for some reason, don't seem nearly as anti-American as the Brits. I wonder why?

Like I said, what were they thinking when they did this? Of course the online responses sound like they were written by Neanderthals. Did anyone ever expect otherwise?

And if you were on the receiving end of the email, and went to the Guardian website to check this whole thing out, what would you think?

Just a really, really bad idea, but one that may help them sell a few papers and adverts over the next fortnight, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 03:12 PM

McGrath: Are you serious? You don't think the Guardian's purpose is to influence the U. S. election? Then why did they do it?

I think most americans believe that we have ample news outlets in our own country for any citizen to become informed about the candidates, and their supporters and make up their own minds.

We really don't need the Brits or anyone else to tell us how to vote, or for who. Likewise, I think it would be outrageous for an American newspaper to do the same (if it were possible to influence the British vote.)

And Guest Jon: you are correct, I think. I think the majority of us don't care one way or another what the citizens of other countries think about our president or our government. However, when a country gets in trouble, they do not hesitate to look to the U. S. for help, right? And they usually get it.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:00 PM

Dear Old Guy,

Get your missus to write your posts for you. That would help. I have absolutely no idea why you have difficulty understanding fundamental English.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:07 PM

Judging from the e-mails send back to the Guardian- it seems to have backfired and motivated Ohio voters to vote for Bush.    The last thing people in the USA want is someone in another country to tell them who to vote for.

That also goes for the anti semetic leader of Malaysia who came out for Kerry two days ago, and the Yassir Arafat endorsement of Kerry today.   Add that to the Bush endorsement from Putin who stated that a "kerry vicotory would be a victory for the terrorists".   All we are missing is the Ossama endorsement.    "Hi, I'm Ossama Bin Landen and i endorse this message of support for John Kerry against the infidel George Bush.   Paid for the democratic national committee, and the CBS fact checkers for truth"

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Peace
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:07 PM

"I have just started using this site because I thought it was supposed to deal with musical issues.I now find that it is a vehicle for Guardian reading psuedo intellectuals to view there half arsed opinions about every thing under the sun except music."

Do us all a favour and get in touch with Old Guy. You two have lots in common. Both so eloquent and discerning.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 04:51 PM

"Then why did they do it?" Because it's a newspaper, and newspapers pull stunts, and it sells extra copies and makes entertaining reading.

I think that in the Prof's joke about pretending to be Canadian, the implication is that that might be a good way for visitors to avoid feeling embarrassed, rather than to avoid getting harassed.

Generally people are predisposed to like Americans as people, even if they sometimes get tempted to tease them. That's nothing to do with thinking that your current administration is pretty unsavoury and incompetent. If people were really anti-American they'd want you to be landed with them for a few more years.

But don't worry about the letters from foaming at the mouth limey-haters - it won't get anyone hating Americans. It might encourage some unkind people to tease them, though, because that kind of reaction is such fun.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:11 PM

But don't worry about the letters from foaming at the mouth limey-haters - it won't get anyone hating Americans.

Well it hasn't got me hating but it has got me wondering how much of it may have simply been written in anger and how much of that may represent an attitude that does exist with some Americans.

One thing I have never believed is that Mudcat or other folk boards are likely to be representative of a true cross section of beliefs or attitudes within a country. Mudcat for example probably attracts a higher percentage of "Guardian reading psuedo intellectuals" than our national average.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:18 PM

You don't have to be a pseudo-intellectual to read the Guardian. Though I sometimes wish there was a Telegraph clone, with politics a bit to the left of the Guardian. Much better crosswords.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 05:58 PM

Jon, I doubt it is even safe to assume that the limey-hating posts are American. I can get a broadband phone number with an area code and prefix anywhere in the US or Canada, just for instance, all legit.

Although I live in the US, two of my six email accounts are from European providers. It also pays to remember that these sorts of letters to the editors of online papers are seen everywhere in the world these days, and don't vary much in content, just the "fill in the blank" info, like the city, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 06:58 PM

Bad, bad idea. And offensive to boot.

I am a Greek who lived in the Uk for 16 years, albeit in three "periods" with significant gaps in between. My wife is English, and she and both my children hold dual nationality. I never bothered, as I don't need it to work and live here and until a year ago I did not see the UK as my permanent residence anyway.

Now I am set to live here possibly for the rest of my life, for the first time I am considering taking on the nationality and voting. Until now (and despite the fact that I could very easily have obtained British nationality many years ago) I did not feel that I had the moral right to vote in the elections of my host country.

Just personal (over?-)sensitivity, that's all. But I find any attempt to influence the vote in a country where I don't live, and have no plans to live in, despicable to say the least. Never mind that the US election will undoubtedly affect the world - we are talking SOVEREIGNTY here folks. True sovereignty, not the mish-mash kind about whether to have the pound or the Euro, but the real thing. Even contemplating it I find abhorrent.

That the Guardian should so dirty itself I find sad. This is not true leftism, with ideals behind it, but "fashionable" one. Shame!

I wish and hope dearly that Bush doesn't get returned, though I can't say that I hold that much hope for the world with the US under Kerry either. Still, he might be the lesser of two evils and worth supporting if we believe half his proclamations. But not this way - never!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 07:49 PM

But I find any attempt to influence the vote in a country where I don't live, and have no plans to live in, despicable.

But doesn't the act of posting here and discussing these sort of issues potentially a way of influencing the way Americans might vote? And the same goes for an editorial or a letter in a newspaper that is available online. The only way to avoid influencing the vote would be to maintain a vow of slence, and pretend there wasn't an election going on. And even that would in itself be likely to have some kind of influence.

What's wrong about this Guardian stunt is that it's clumsy, and quite likely to affect voting intentions in a perverse fashion. It'll be a bit sick if America and the world gets saddled with Bush, in a neck and neck election, just because a few people in Clark County got irritated at getting these letters. And all because the editor of the Guardian thought this seemed a jolly funny idea, that might gain a few readers, and tease a few Yanks into blowing their tops.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 07:50 PM

But I find any attempt to influence the vote in a country where I don't live, and have no plans to live in, despicable.

But isn't the very act of posting here and discussing these sort of issues potentially a way of influencing the way Americans might vote? And the same goes for an editorial or a letter in a newspaper that is available online. The only way to avoid influencing the vote would be to maintain a vow of slence, and pretend there wasn't an election going on. And even that would in itself be likely to have some kind of influence.

What's wrong about this Guardian stunt is that it's clumsy, and quite likely to affect voting intentions in a perverse fashion. It'll be a bit sick if America and the world gets saddled with Bush, in a neck and neck election, just because a few people in Clark County got irritated at getting these letters. And all because the editor of the Guardian thought this seemed a jolly funny idea, that might gain a few readers, and tease a few Yanks into blowing their tops.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 19 Oct 04 - 07:57 PM

It's a feeling almost too strange to describe, but every once in a while I find myself in complete agreement with DougR.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:39 AM

I don't know, McGoH... This is not the same as an editorial; it is an exchange of views. A conversation taking place in public. Not an attempt at proselytisation or influence. Furthermore, the Guardian's project goes beyond simple editorial - it recommends that people take action and write those letters.

It's OK to say "I don't like that country's leader". It's OK to say "I wish they voted for someone else in that country". But it's not OK to urge the citizens of another country to vote in any particular way. A fine line, I grant you, but a line nevertheless.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: DougR
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:06 AM

Peter: now don't get carried away! Drink a Guinness and it'll probably go away. :>)

McGrath: I guess the role of newspapers in GB are different than in the U. S. I know of no major newspaper here that intentionally does "stunts" to attract readers. That's "National Enquirer" type journalism.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:25 AM

McGrath of Harlow:

The first election in the US was in 1796 when George Washington finished his second term. It was done by Electors some of which were chosen by voters and some were chosen the legislature of his state.

The first uniform Election Day, when the people in all states voted, was on November 4, 1845.

Some day the people of Afghanistan and Iraq will be discussing their first election. Provided the US and the UK stay the course.


Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 01:26 AM

Sick of all the crap here and elsewhere,be glad when it's all over.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:00 AM

---"and for WHOM" , Doug R.. Dianavan, where are you? ---Someone should be told that we all make mistakes!
In spite of my abhorrence of Bush and his nest of vipers, I am in accord with those who disagree with the Guardian's e-mail ploy. The re-election of Bush will without doubt affect the lives of all of us---but for pity's sake, don't do anything which might suggest that all of us are entitled to be involved in the current shit-slinging orgy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:22 AM

Doug, the Guardian is a quality newspaper. This action suprised me greatly. It is not the sort of thing I would expect from there.

On the other hand our tabloid press can be awful. Here is a link to one I thought particularly disgusting. It ended up with a referee getting police protection for dissalowing a goal for England.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:54 AM

Yup, you're right. Never meddle in other nation's elections. In fact, never meddle with other nations.

And of course, the US and Great Britain, to name just the two in question, had NEVER meddled in another nation. Never paid for governments to be overthrown, never backed juntas, never "encouraged" voters in the election process towards voting in a way utterly alien to that country's entire history.

Nope. These two countries certainly do believe in leaving everyone to make their own decisions.

Yup.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:24 AM

Sure they have, Ellenpoly, I agree. That still does not make the Guardian's action right. As in "two wrongs...etc". An amoral left-winger is no different from an amoral right-winger (or whatever-winger). There are politics, and there is morality. The latter should remain high, irrespective of how low the politicians stoop with their excuses for expediency.

Old Guy, looking in the history books and around me I see that in every case a foreign power intervened (benevolently or not) to stabilise a country, or to put someone in government, the result has been instability. Examples abound: The state of Israel and the instability in the Middle East; creating the ficticious Yugoslavia from a hotch-potch of nations - as soon as Tito died the lid came off.

True change can only ever come from within a nation, never from outside.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 04:35 AM

Other examples: Franco's Spain - splitting Germany post WWII - the splitting up of Kurdistan - pre-Independence America...

So don't give me the do-gooders' slogans. You are nobody's saviour, and certainly not Iraq's or Afghanistan's. You have not been appointed World Policeman by anybody. Stop pretending. You are in those countries for your own reasons and not for anybody's good. And if you benevolently think otherwise, I'm telling you : It doesn't work that way.

But that STILL does not excuse the Guardian...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:06 AM

I definitely don't see anything wrong with people as influence trying to influence how people vote by discussion and argument, regardless of where they live, when this is in the cointext of mutual exchange, as here.   

On the other hand I loathe any kind of "cold-calling", and this is a particularly distasteful vesion of that. The fact that it is in another country isn't really the point, I think, though it does make it even more likely to be counter-productive.

If there were a by-election in England, and an English newspaper were to try the same stunt, I think it would be wrong as well. And if some American newspaper were to try to marshall its readers to write to strangers in this way in some crucial county in the United States, the same objections would arise.

I'm glad to hear that quality newspapers in the USA don't go in for stunts, Doug. I suspect that sometimes British "quality newspapers" have picked up more of the wrong qualities from the tabloid press than they realise, and that isn't by any means true only of the Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:07 AM

I definitely don't see anything wrong with people as individuals trying to influence how people vote by discussion and argument, regardless of where they live, when this is in the cointext of mutual exchange, as here.   

On the other hand I loathe any kind of "cold-calling", and this is a particularly distasteful version of that. The fact that it is in another country isn't really the point, I think, though it does make it even more likely to be counter-productive.

If there were a by-election in England, and an English newspaper were to try the same stunt, I think it would be wrong as well. And if some American newspaper were to try to marshall its readers to write to strangers in this way in some crucial county in the United States, the same objections would arise.

I'm glad to hear that quality newspapers in the USA don't go in for stunts, Doug. I suspect that sometimes British "quality newspapers" have picked up more of the wrong qualities from the tabloid press than they realise, and that isn't by any means true only of the Guardian.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:13 AM

El Greko, filee mou, I do agree with you in principle that no one should meddle, and if you saw the Guardian as doing that, I understand your thinking on the matter.

I saw it in a different light. My concern is that I can still remember how insulated most people in America still are about anyone or anything outside their own boundaries. I don't know how to wake them up to seeing their role as a citizens of the world first and foremost.

But then again, I find this is not limited to just Americans...

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: GUEST,longpecker redneck
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:12 AM

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawn !!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:16 AM

Katalaveno, Eleni. That's a toughie though. I don't see the awakening as a single event, but rather as a process, mostly of education. It would take generations. That's not to say it's not worth trying, of course.

And you're right, this phaenomenon is not limited to Americans (not all, of course). I know Greek and English and Dutch and German and French "hillbillies". And Arabs, and Jews. We mostly "let them be" and do not engage in argument because life is too short. But they do need to be educated to look (and understand) beyond their borders.

It takes persistence and sacrifice. People who will devote their lives to the process, knowing that they may not see significant change in their lifetime. People who are not discouraged by the amount of xenophobia and "me first" around them. Some will be artists who will dress the message appropriately so as to touch people. Some will be politicians (and I don't know many - any - in that category today). And most will be just ordinary people. You and me. Start by teaching our kids, then our friends and neighbours.

A lot of the barriers have gone down already. Increased travel helps, and so does commerce. But the stumbling block is the politicians, with their short-term interests.

Because this is a very long innings.

Kouragio, fili.
Yiorgos

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:17 AM

Hello redpecker longneck, I was wondering where you've been.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:21 AM

...and don't complain. It was you who thrusted your pecker in our faces, so to speak. So it's only fair if you get it slapped till it's red.

You little exhibitionist, you...

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: Jim McLean
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:50 PM

The Guardian was wrong. Can you imagine the spluttering in the UK if an American or French newspaper tried the same stunt 'interfering' in our elections? The only surprise to me was the crude and agressive American replies. I don't think 'disgusted of Turnbridge Wells'could get that low.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:28 PM

I don't think 'disgusted of Tunbridge Wells'could get that low.

I wouldn't bet on it. And if so, there are people writing columns in the trashier tabloids who could do the job.

Though I think that the tone might be different - less angry, more mocking.

The thing is, when you're really arrogant, you don't actually give a toss about criticism. Being told you are unloved is quite encouraging, because you don't want to be loved by those strange people over there.

When Americans react to criticism in that kind of way, it seems to me a kind of humility. It means they actually care about what people say about them, even when they say they don't.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 06:57 PM

"When Americans react to criticism in that kind of way" - I mean, by getting all angry and upset, like in those letters.

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: DougR
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 06:50 PM

Ellenpolly: Surely you jest! You think Europeans are better informed than Americans?

I just returned from three weeks in Ireland and Scoland. The average citizen there may receive more variety in TV programming than the places we stayed (Time Share units and B@Bs)but I found TV to be programming to be lousy. We got the BBC (1&2), SKYNEWS (or something like that) and about seven or eight other channels. In Scotland we did get CNN. I listened to all the news I could find on TV and I told my wife that I will NEVER complain about U. S. Television again.

And the newspapers: I read the Irish Independt and the Irish Times. Chock full of stuff about goings on in Ireland. Very little news of what is going on in the rest of the world. The same in Scotland, very little coverage outside the British Isles.

I love both countries. Those of you who live there are very fortunate. But you sure could use some U.S. TV know-how when it comes to programming and writing newspapers.

DougR

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: UK Guardian project to influence US vote
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 08:10 PM

Interesting, Doug - and that's not meant sarcastically or anything - but was that because you felt that the news wasn't covering stories that it should have been covering, more especially stories about what was happening in the rest of the world (rather than the USA), or was it because you felt the stories weren't being covered properly.

I supplement my news reading nowadays through the Internet, and especially the Google News facility, and I have got the impression a fair number of times that, for quite significant foreign stories, which have been given fair coverage in the kind of newspapers in England which actually carry much news (and not all do), the US media don't seem to figure much. But that may be a false impression, and down to the way Google works.

When I'm on holiday I tend not to do much watching TV news or reading papers if I can help it. I see that as a major part of the holiday.