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BS: And So it Begins...
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Subject: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:19 AM As some of us predicted it would, just weeks ago. Except they aren't even waiting for the general election. From this morning's Minneapolis Star Tribune: McCain asks N.C. GOP to pull ad on Obama Last update: April 23, 2008 - 9:05 PM Republican John McCain on Wednesday asked the North Carolina GOP not to run a television ad that brings up the controversial former pastor of Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama. North Carolina Republican Party officials insisted the ad will run as planned despite McCain's request. The ad opens with a photo of Obama and the Rev. Jeremiah Wright together and a clip of Wright, whose incendiary comments about race have bedeviled Obama. "He's just too extreme for North Carolina," the narrator says. Asked about the ad, Obama said: "My understanding is that the Republican National Committee and John McCain have both said that the ad's inappropriate. I take them at their word, and I assume that if John McCain thinks that it's an inappropriate ad, that he can get them to pull it down since he's their nominee and standard-bearer." |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:22 AM Well, Fantz, I donno... Seems that the "527's" are gonna be the McCain "bad cops" and they will do this and that and McCain will pretend that the ads are offensive and in complaining the complaints will make the daily news cycle and McCain will get a win/win outta the negative ads... Purdy smart strategy... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:01 AM Which is exactly what some of us have been saying for a long time. Obama has plenty of negatives, but we only ever hear about Clinton's negatives. In fact, it looks very much to me like working class voters aren't even being polled in the same percentages that middle class and upper middle class voters are being polled. The polling, including exit polling, in PA was off the mark AGAIN. There are legitimate concerns everyone should have about this trend. Pollsters only call people with landlines. Many working class people have dropped their landlines to save money, and use cell phones instead. I also mentioned over in the PA primary thread, that Obama hasn't been able to win the Democratic working class base he claims to be all about helping--that is such a serious disconnect, I don't see how he could possibly win the Reagan Democrats that came back to the party in the 2006 election that put the Dems back in control of Congress (barely). And that arrogance thing--his campaign dismiss that voting bloc out of hand, by saying they are voting Republican, so he shouldn't even bother going after their votes. They aren't voting Republican. The so-called Reagan Democrats, the lunchbucket Democrats, the working class Democrats--whatever you want to call them--who went to Reagan/Bush in the 1980s--most came back to vote for Bill Clinton in 1996. But they didn't like Al Gore, because they perceived him as elitist--and he is. They HATED John Kerry because of his elitism, and were dead to rights on that one. Now, for the third election cycle in a row, you have yet another Democratic nominee whom working class people see as just another empty suit elitist, who talks a fine talk about helping the middle class, while ignoring the interests of the working class. Clinton does the same thing--talks about helping the middle class, but her agenda priorities are far more suited to what the working class deems important, than what Obama's agenda priorities deems important. If there were some way for working class voters to "connect" with Obama, it certainly would have happened by now. And that is, IMO, the great danger of Obama being the Democratic nominee. You've got another Democratic nominee in the Al Gore/John Kerry mold, but in a different color. My partner just got back from PA, and was there during the primary. One thing he said was the working class isn't completely racist in terms of their vote--that in fact, they are far more sexist nowadays than they are racist. He pointed out there are many bi & multi racial working class folks who don't support Obama, which seems odd because of Obama's bi-racial identity. But they seem to perceive him as sort of disowning them, in favor of his African American identity. But for the white PA working class voters, he seems to think there is just a huge misperception that they won't vote for an African American, and he doesn't believe that. He thinks they just don't want to vote for this particular African American, because they are highly suspicious of him due to his big money connections. And don't forget how big the disconnect is between union leadership and the rank and file on political candidate endorsements. My own union endorsed Obama before the primary season even got off the ground--way back in 2007. A good percentage of the union membership didn't even know who Obama was when they made the endorsement! |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: kendall Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:05 AM Fantasma, list Obama's negatives.We will compare them to Hillary's. I hope you don't include his EX pastor.Who can be responsible for what someone else said? I have two brother who are racists. Does that mean I am? Hell no!Am I going to disown them? Hell no! One of my best friends is a raving Republican. We have been friends for over 40 years. Should I dump him?Helol no! |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:26 AM I kinda have to agree with Kendall, Fantz... Obama's negistives have been thru the wash cycle a few times now and every time this occurs they become less and less meaty... Tho if I ware McCain's handler I'd be doing exactly what they are doing... McCain's folks are behind the scenes telling these 527's to run the ads and then publicly refuting them... Very ingenious, indeed and lots of PR for very little $$$... AQctually, I love the concept... The only problem I have with the strategy is in their timin'... They sould have waited until June ot July because that is when they are going to come under attack from the Dem 527's and if they play this out too soon people will see thru it long before they need it... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:03 PM Typical American election bullshit. What a disgusting spectacle it is to watch from another country as this year long exercise in utter cynicism and phony rhetoric drags itself out day by day. It's like watching the emperor of Rome decide whether or not to strangle his wife and have sex with his sister while he contemplates his forthcoming marriage to his horse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,lox Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:11 PM There is nothing to add little hawk ... beautifully put! |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:29 PM White working class voters. He does just fine with Black working class voters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 12:43 PM "I hope you don't include his EX pastor.Who can be responsible for what someone else said?" You mean the one he sat there and listened to for 20 years, that one? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:02 PM "...McCain's folks are behind the scenes telling these 527's to run the ads..." Oh, bunk. This is 100% speculation based only on the fact that somebody hates all Republicans. Fact is, McCain has been running for office for years and has no track record of dirty campaigning. He actually speaks out about the nasty negativity of US politics, something he shares with Joe Lieberman, a McCain supporter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:15 PM Lots of people hate all Republicans. ;-) Lots of people hate all Democrats. ;-) That was the main purpose behind setting up and promoting the whole divisive party system in the first place. A public eternally divided against itself in that way is easily managed and ruled by a few rich scoundrels. It works the same way with football, baseball, or any other competitive game like that. You set up opposing teams, get people to back them fanatically and hate each other mutually and BINGO! Cash in the bank. You may even get riots after a big game and heads may get busted. So much the better. It gives the police something to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:23 PM That post is all hot air. There was a claim made that McCain was behind the anti-Obama add. That claim is total bunk. No different than claims that George W. Bush ordered the demolition of the Trade Towers. Throwing this vomit at others is the same thing these people are objecting when done by others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Goose Gander Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:36 PM I only wish that every time someone brought up the Reverend Wright story, it would be followed with a comment on the odious Reverend Hagee, whose endorsement McCain sought and obtained. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:39 PM Look at who started this thread, an argumentative Mudcat malcontent. It isn't worth your time to bother to respond to her. She just likes to set people up to argue. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:39 PM I won't, however, because McCain didn't sit in a pew and listen to Hagee for 20 years. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Goose Gander Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:42 PM No, but he sought his damned endorsement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Amos Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:49 PM Rig: You continue to malign Pastor Wright with the false and distorted characterization made of him by the negative nabobs of Fox with their carefully selected clips. I sent you the link to a real interview with him on der Spiegel. I posted links to fuller videos showing the broader context, which dramatically changes the impact of the few "hot button" phrases you have built your condescension on. Why do you persist in ignoring the full body of data in forming this opinion of yours, borrowed from such shallow and toxic sources? I have posted data about Wright's military record, his medical service in attendance to two Presidents, and yet you choose to ignore these things in favor of a smutty, distorted caricature. Why? A A |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 01:59 PM "...but he sought his damned endorsement..." Actually, the correct phrsae would be "...but he got his damned endorsement..." No politician can afford to publicaly turn down the support of anyone who will likley vote. Has Obama publically rebuked the radicals of Islam? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:17 PM Scrapings from the bottom of the Dumpster. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:28 PM "I sent you the link to a real interview with him on der Spiegel." I think I commented on the interview earlier. It didn't really say anything we didn't already know. I think I mentioned that my views on religion are not very widely accepted, so my views of Wright will probably not change anyone's mind. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Goose Gander Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:36 PM For the last time, John McCain sought and obtained the endorsement of Reverend Hagee, who has called the Catholic Church the "great whore", who has stated repeatedly that Katrina was God's punishment upon New Orleans, and whose 'support' for Israel apparently involves gleefully looking forward to the incineration of most of the world's jews so that his pre-dispensationalist vision can come to pass. "No politician can afford to publicaly turn down the support of anyone who will likley vote. Has Obama publically rebuked the radicals of Islam?" pdq, you are approaching incoherence with this statement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:38 PM The way I understood it was, Hagee approached McCain with an offer of endorsement, which put McCain in a position of having to tell him he would rather not--which would really piss off the right-wing-religious-weirdos--or accept the endorsement. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:45 PM ./..not to mention sounding like this is the first campaign he's witnessed... You can take it to the bank that McCain's people are into some dirty stuff with the 527er's... 55 lobbiests on his staff and you don't believe that, pdq??? Want to buy a bridge??? Wake up, pal... It's Politics 101... |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: dwditty Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM WHy is it that when people discuss politics, they turn into assholes...including (if not especially) those running for office? |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Donuel Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:46 PM The union was smart to endorse Obama. He was the only one to point out that NAFTA has cost the working file 2.2 million jobs. McCain was endorsed by a preacher that says to this day that the Pope is the AntiChrist. Where are those ads? then again people in the Carolina's might think that is spot on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:47 PM It does kind of puzzle me a little bit that the North Carolina Republicans would dirty themselves buy officially putting out the slander instead of just letting one of the 527 groups do it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:47 PM Riginslinger is essentailly correct in that statement, although very few Christian conservatives deserve to be called rotten names. Perhaps a few, but the same can be said for the fringe elements in every group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Little Hawk Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:49 PM Why worry about the techicalities? It's basically just all a bunch of emotionally charged BS intended to manipulate this or that sector of the public into voting for (or more likely against) someone. The fact that people fall for it is pretty sad, but easily predictable, I suppose. It worked that way in ancient Rome too. Just slander your opponent(s) by any shoddy means you can come up with, and make sure the gossip gets repeated over and over again in the media. Anything that is repeated enough times in the media is soon believed by most people....if, that is, they are predisposed to want to believe it. It's as easy as cracking an egg. Thus are elections are decided, by innuendo and triviality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Goose Gander Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:54 PM "It's true that [John] McCain's campaign sought my endorsement." Reverend John Hagee |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 02:57 PM It does kind of puzzle me a little bit that the North Carolina Republicans would dirty themselves buy officially putting out the slander instead of just letting one of the 527 groups do it. They don't care. They want Hillary to win, and they aren't concerned about how they will be perceived by anyone. There's still quite a lot of racism in this state, and it's a very unapologetic kind of racism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:06 PM Republicans really are working very hard to help Hillary win the nomination. This should tell people a lot about Hillary's chances of winning the general election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM Show some citations when you make a statement like that, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:24 PM Hillary is far more able to beat McCain than Obama. What most of us in rural America see that the Democrats are just blaming everything wrong on Repubicans. They are now whipping boy and boogey man combined. Democrats need a new act. This election is already over. Perhaps a fresh face or two in four years would help save the Democratic party. That and some new ideas. Let the Bill Clinton legacy of sliming ones way to power die. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:30 PM Hillary is far more able to beat McCain than Obama. I would expect you to say this, pdq. As I said... Republicans want Hillary to win the nomination. I'm not a Democrat, myself, so I don't really care one way or another what happens to the Democratic party, any more than I care about what happens to the Republican party. Actually, I do care what happens to them. I would like to see all political parties abolished. They're destroying our democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:33 PM Show some citations when you make a statement like that, please. This thread is my citation. What the Republican party is doing to Obama during the primary rather than the general election, for instance the anti-Obama ad that is the subject of this thread. They are trying to help Hillary win the nomination right here in the state where I live with that ad. I know this because of the timing of it. If they weren't trying to get Hillary nominated, they wouldn't be airing it right before the primary in this state. Instead, they would be using it during the general election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:34 PM 1. I am a Republican 2. I do not want Hilary to win the nomination, although I think it would be easier to beat her in the general election. Thus your statement is false. ( You are the one who says that ONE exception invalidates a generality.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:37 PM With all due respect CarolC, Are you capable of discussing facts and opinions without trying to discredit the messinger? Also, think about what you said. It makes no sense. Why would Republicans want Hillary nominated since she has some chance of winning on 4 NOV. Obama has none. BTW, I am a registered independant and have been since 2004. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:37 PM First of all, I did not say all Republicans, or the Republicans, so my statement is not false. Secondly, you are supporting my basic premise when you say that you think it would be easier for McCain to win against Hillary in the general election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 03:59 PM Are you capable of discussing facts and opinions without trying to discredit the messinger? Yes I am. How about you? For pdq, and also beardedbruce... many (ok, beardedbruce?) of the people I know who are Republicans or who are McCain supporters want Hillary to be nominated, and/or, they believe that she has little to no chance of winning against McCain in the general election. I know of some who registered as Democrats in the primaries in their states just so they could vote for her. And then there is the timing of the ad from the Republican party here in North Carolina. Also, most of the members of the punditocracy commentariate who support McCain act like they want Hillary to get the nomination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: pdq Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:08 PM The add was in poor taste. McCain denounced it and asked that it be pulled. He had nothing to due with making the add and did not gain anything by letting it run. McCain has a moral compass and most of us in rural America respect that. I will proudly vote for John McCain on 4 NOV, but I do not believe he is the best person America has to lead the country. Not even close. Obama and Hillary are barely fit to be members of the Chicago City Council and write laws about Lincoln Park and traffic congestion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: beardedbruce Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:11 PM from the PA PRIMARY: 20% of Hilary voters would rather vote for McCann than Obama, if that was their choice. 30% of Obama voters would NOT vote for Hilary if she was the Democratic candidate (unspecified other candidates) IMO Hilary would mobilize the far right into a voter turnout that might well sweep the election. Obama, while I do not agree with his policies or past efforts in Congress, IMO is less likely to act in a fashion that would endanger the US. IE, we have a better chance of surviving an Obama preseidency than we do a Hilary one. MANY of the posters here seem to think that the Democrats will win the election. I would have agreed a year ago, but even the middle of the road DEMOCRATS are beginning to see the danger in having a SINGLE party in control of the Senate, the House, AND the Presidency. THAT may be the deciding factor in this election. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:22 PM I didn't accuse McCain of anything, pdq. I am talking about the Republican party in my state. IMOHilary would mobilize the far right into a voter turnout that might well sweep the election. This is what I'm hearing from a lot of Republicans and other people who have hated Hillary since the Clinton presidency. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 04:45 PM '"It's true that [John] McCain's campaign sought my endorsement." Reverend John Hagee...' Of course, he's a preacher, and makes his living by selling horse manure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Ebbie Date: 24 Apr 08 - 05:13 PM "What most of us in rural America see that the Democrats are just blaming everything wrong on Repubicans. They are now whipping boy and boogey man combined. Democrats need a new act." pdq Haven't you been listening? Obama makes it very clear that he is aware that it is not just Republicans who are the problem. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:22 PM I really don't think it can be argued that the Repubs want to run against Obama rather than Clinton... Clinton does not match up well with McCain in most polls... Clinton has a higher "negative" rating in most polls... The Repubs have alot more ammo for Clinton then Obama... Yes, there have been alot of cross over voting in Pa... That was reported in the exit polls... Repubs crossed over to vote for Clinton in a big way... If the Repubs that ctossed over and voted for Clinton weren't counted then Clinton would have won by far less a margin or maybe not won at all... Face it folks, talk radio is tellin' their righties to fu*k the Dem primaries up... And they are doing just that because they can... Hey, McCain is allready the Repub nominee so what we are seein' is a frontal, rear and flank assault by the Repubs on Obama... This is the real deal... Fold can say prove it... Well, listen in to Rush Limbaugh ot any of the other rightie-radioies... The proff is in the pudding... 200,000 dies in the wool Pennsylvania Repubs fon't just wake up one mornin' and say "Hey, I'm a Democrat now"... Give me a break... This primary is being completely corrupted by Repubs... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 06:26 PM Except the polls that I heard said more of the crossover Republicans voted for Obama than voted for Hillary, though I wonder how they know that. And on an NPR program today, I heard a pundit make the case that McCain has a real shot at winning California if his opponent was Obama, much less so if his opponent was Clinton. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Amos Date: 24 Apr 08 - 07:48 PM Not any part of California I've been in. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:20 PM Rev. Wright was on the nightly news again tonight. He will appear on Bill Moyers show tomorrow night, at a NAACP function this weekend, and National Press Club on Monday. So, I guess the Republicans can save their NC advertising money, cuz Wright just put himself square in middle of the game in the run up to NC & IN. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:30 PM Obama/Wright '08!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:31 PM I read an article this morning--an Obama campaign worker was quoted as saying something along the lines of "if you are an old white Catholic woman w/out a high school diploma, then you voted for Clinton". Now, I find that far more offensive than the Rev. Hagee's utterly predictable comments, considering who he is and where he is coming from. Because as someone born and raised Catholic, I can tell you I pretty much agree with the statement that the pope is the anti-christ. So is Rev. Hagee, but I digress. Then tonight as I watched a segment on the Obama campaign on the Katie News channel, a glowing segment BTW, it focused on how young all the campaign workers are. Which put the original comment I describe above in somewhat starker relief. While there appears to be some women managers, it sure looked to me like the inner circle is all men. Am I right about that? Does anyone know who is in the Obama inner circle? It might not be much, but I'm trying to figure out this week why Mr. Axelrod said that Obama doesn't really need white working class voters, and why the PA campaign worker would make such a patently offensive remark (that sounded just a tad bitter...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:32 PM Yo, Rigs... If yer a Repub who listens to Rush, are you gonna tell the truth to an exit poller??? Heck, no... |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Don Firth Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:33 PM I wouldn't write off either Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama at this point. The main thing the Republican Party has going against it? The last eight years. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:35 PM So true, Don. And the main thing they have going for them is the Democratic Party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Riginslinger Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:00 PM "Yo, Rigs... If yer a Repub who listens to Rush, are you gonna tell the truth to an exit poller??? Heck, no..." Yeah, that's kind of what I thought when I heard it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: GUEST,Fantasma Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:34 AM Just read an interesting article about The Big Disconnect between the left and the Democratic party by Chris Hedges. It was originally published in the Philadelphia Inquirer, but is reposted on the Common Dreams website, where I found it. The people it signifies to me are the MoveOn.org folk, who were originally Clinton folk, which is why I never thought much of them. They were also not really leftists at all, but disenchanted yuppie Clinton Dems who didn't get their way. Here is the opening snippet: Published on Monday, April 21, 2008 by the Philadelphia Inquirer The Left Has Lost Its Nerve and Its Direction by Chris Hedges The failure of the American left is a failure of nerve. It has been neutralized and rendered ineffectual as a political force because of its refusal to hold fast on core issues, from universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health care for all Americans, to the steadfast protection of workers' rights, to an immediate withdrawal from the failed occupation of Iraq to a fight against a militarized economy that is hollowing the country out from the inside. Let the politicians compromise. This is their job. It is not ours. If the left wants to regain influence in the nation's political life, it must be willing to walk away from the Democratic Party, even if Barack Obama is the nominee, and back progressive, third-party candidates until the Democrats feel enough heat to adopt our agenda. We must be willing to say no. If not, we become slaves. Political and social change, as the radical Christian right and the array of corporate-funded neocon think tanks have demonstrated, are created by the building of movements. This is a lesson American progressives have forgotten. The object of a movement is not to achieve political power at any price. It is to create pressure and mobilize citizens around core issues of justice. It is to force politicians and parties to respond to our demands. It is about rewarding, through support and votes, those who champion progressive ideals and punishing those who refuse. And the current Democratic Party, as any worker in a former manufacturing town in Pennsylvania can tell you, has betrayed us. Full article here: http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/04/21/8420/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Bobert Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:46 AM Can't argue with that... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Don Firth Date: 25 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM Nor can I. The problem, however, is that there is no viable progressive third party, nor third party candidates who can do anything other than attract voters away from the Democratic candidates. Granted, the Dems are to the right of center, but they are still not as far right as the Republicans. They at least give lip-service to progressive values, and can be challenged on their own ground when they fail to live up to what they say. I still maintain that the only practical way to take back the country from the far Right is the one Thom Hartmann outlined in the article I have linked to numerous times on these threads. But since Hartmann's approach is not an instantaneous cure and requires that people get up off their butts and actually do something rather than just sit at their computers pissing and moaning, it keeps getting dismissed without thought. A democracy is a participatory form of government, and in this country, the big problem is that too many people want someone else to do it for them. Once again, an undoubtedly futile attempt: (SIGH) Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Ebbie Date: 25 Apr 08 - 05:35 PM From Don's link: "So the conservatives decided not to get angry, but to get power. "Led by Joseph Coors and a handful of other ultra-rich funders, they decided the only way to seize control of the American political agenda was to infiltrate and take over one of the two national political parties, using their own think tanks like the Coors-funded Heritage Foundation to mold public opinion along the way. Now they regularly get their spokespeople on radio and television talk shows and newscasts, and write a steady stream of daily op-ed pieces for national newspapers. They launched an aggressive takeover of Dwight Eisenhower's "moderate" Republican Party, opening up the "big tent" to invite in groups that had previously been considered on the fringe. Archconservative neo-Christians who argue the Bible should replace the Constitution even funded the startup of a corporation to manufacture computer-controlled voting machines, which are now installed across the nation. And Reverend Moon took over The Washington Times newspaper and UPI. "Their efforts, as we see today, have borne fruit, as Kevin Phillips predicted they would in his prescient 1969 book "The Emerging Republican Majority," and as David Brock so well documents in his book "Blinded By The Right." I've read your link several times and to me the problem, Don, is that that ain't us. A coalition of like minds and the wherewithal to act upon it is not easy to set up or maintain. Perhaps in large cities it would be possible but I don't see it happening in towns or in rural areas until we see protests already out on the streets. At that point we might join. It's just not likely that a small group will be heard. I haven't heard of your group, for instance. |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Don Firth Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:06 PM The basic thing, Ebbie, is not that one has to have loads of money to do this (although it doesn't hurt). But you do have to get involved in the Party. Go to meetings, speak out, argue your points, try to convince others of your viewpoint. Bring like-minded friends to do the same. And support the strong, progressive voices in the Party. And there are some, but there are far too few. The Democratic Party is already there, so you don't have to start from scratch. And although the Dems talk progressive values a lot, when push comes to shove, all too often they buckle. But—some members of the party do not. Washington State's Rep. Jim McDermott is a strong, outspoken progressive, and it's people like McDermott who need backing within the party, rather than the usual suspects who get nervous when he speaks out strongly. The problem is that there are not enough people like him, and one of the reasons for that is they don't get all that much support within the party itself. So you don't have to lead the charge, just back up those who do. The nervous Nellies in the Democratic Party get all panicky when McDermott starts sounding off, saying "My God, he's going to frighten off the independent and undecided voters," because they're afraid he's too progressive. But they seem to miss the fact that McDermott keeps getting re-elected, and got 85% of the vote in the last election. And not all of those who voted for him were affiliated with any political party. Somebody seems to like what he says! Changing a political party's direction is very much like steering a super-tanker. They don't respond quickly, so when you want it to change direction, you have to keep leaning on the wheel until it responds. That's what the Right Wing did with the Republican Party, and it didn't happen right away. But they took the long view, they had the patience, and it took a decade or two before it started showing real results. But it worked! There are progressive think-tanks out there, such as the Rockridge Institute and the Center for American Progress and other organizations like The Backbone Campaign (one I'm affiliated with, dedicated to giving the Democratic Party the spine it seems to lack). The more people who get involved, the faster the party will start going in the direction you want it to go. The problem with so many people posting here (and in general) is that they want a quick fix, and there ain't no quick fixes. So they just say "to hell with it!" and sit back and complain that "it'll never work!" Well, the Right Wing made it work. And it wasn't just money that did it. It was people getting in and arguing their points face to face. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: And So it Begins... From: Don Firth Date: 25 Apr 08 - 07:16 PM Don't stop reading the article too early. A bit over halfway through— ". . . .the best immediate solution to advance the progressive agenda is for progressives to join and take back the Democratic Party, in the same way conservatives seized control of the Republican Party.Then Hartmann goes on from there. Don Firth |
