BS: If Russia didn't do it..?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:20 AM

I think you are jumping through hoops, Iains. Any minute now you will not be able to jump high enough and you will 'lose' ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 08:30 AM

"Iains, Syria is a civil war."

.."Please may we bomb your homes to maim & kill your families, thank you very much...???"

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:46 AM

I think truth is more important than hoops. There is plenty of data out there to to suggest that what has happened on the ground in Syria has a reality at odds with the story presented by the mainstream media. Some, like the sphinx may like to keep their orifices below the sand of the Nile and thereby remain closed to alternatives and thus inscrutable. I however get the hump, like the camel, when people refuse to entertain the idea that perhaps other beliefs may have a factual basis.
Very convenient how coalition airstrikes target Syrian assets and infrastructure and simultaneously the terrorist are able to reform and attack.
Very inconvenient when said terrorists are found to have caches of western weaponry. Does Father Christmas shower his largesse on terrorists?
This thesis could be developed extensively but it would be a wasted effort.
I find it worrying you are so convinced of your own righteousness.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 10:52 AM

"I find it worrying you are so convinced of your own righteousness."

on a forum like this we have the option of not taking such clump headed folks seriously, dismissing, and ignoring them...

It's when they wield real power in the real world that's truly terrifying...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:17 PM

PFR,
.."Please may we bomb your homes to maim & kill your families, thank you very much...???"

Who is bombing whose homes in Syria?

Iains,
Very convenient how coalition airstrikes target Syrian assets and infrastructure

What Syrian assets and infrastructure have been targeted by the coalition Iains?

"I find it worrying you are so convinced of your own righteousness."

Rightness not righteousness! I am in good company PFR. Emily Thornberry says she is convinced it was Assad too.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 12:36 PM

So what..

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:05 PM

So what?
not taking such clump headed folks seriously, dismissing, and ignoring them

Your view of the Shadow Foreign Secretary.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:07 PM

..if you say so...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 02:55 PM

Keith The standard of your literary efforts at rebuttal are far exceeded by Janet and John Book 1. Merely throwing the odd statement back with a question mark is hardly a counter argument. If you dispute what is said at least try to give a supporting argument, otherwise there is little point in acknowledging your presence.
yours is the consummate response of querying all just by the use of ?
To be taken seriously you need to put a little more effort into your warblings here!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 03:42 PM

Hoops Iains, and ever more hoops.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Apr 18 - 06:50 PM

Iains Rules of Order must be obeyed or you will receive demerits and insults. Very Trumpian.
No one here will advise you to be nice person except yourself.

You remind me of the internet of 2001.
Just when you sound sane you go 'A Link Too Far'
Many of the Trolls of that era contracted virulent soul eating cases of Conspiria. Those who survived might work for bots by now.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:01 AM

Congratulations Donuel. Another post of just hot air wandering about in a maze of obfuscation.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:04 AM

A view from the trenches!
https://ahtribune.com/culture-media/2233-skripal-and-douma.html

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 05:43 AM

Iains,
Merely throwing the odd statement back with a question mark is hardly a counter argument. If you dispute what is said at least try to give a supporting argument, otherwise there is little point in acknowledging your presence.

Throwing back statements with a question mark is asking for the statement to be justified.
In case that was not obvious, I also put a question, e.g. "Who is bombing whose homes in Syria?" and "What Syrian assets and infrastructure have been targeted by the coalition Iains?"

No Western country is bombing homes in Syria. Only 3 military targets were struck and without a single casualty.
No infrastructure or assets were targeted except illegal ones under international law.

PFR, I asked Joe to remove my post from late last night. He kindly did but also deleted my apology which you may not have seen.

I am very sorry for the things I said in that post. I was unwell and not myself.
Sorry,
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 07:01 AM

Keith. Documented data below with very instructive graphics. I would have severe reservations about the attribution of casualties. I recommend you carefully study the methodology of collation and attribution. It is a grey area in my opinion.
I know that the coalition and MSM like to emphasize surgical strikes, but even with smart weapons(and what percentage are dumb weapons?) mis targeting occurs.
How many surgical    strikes hit schools, buses,hospitals, generating capacity etc ect. The idea that civilians do not get killed by all sides in this conflict is preposterous.
https://airwars.org/data/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 07:03 AM

Keith - I'm addressing you by name for this post = I didn't see your apology, but respect that felt you needed to say sorrry.

Your 'offending' post was hilariously out of character, and was amusing - not taken as hurtful..

Seriously there was no need to apologise for such a trifle amongst the usual level of robust BS banter,
insults, and counter insults..

My default position is i don't agree with deletions at all, ever..
unless the posted material breaks hate speech laws that put mudcat in jeopardy.

..and calling me a **** is water off a ducks back - sticks 'n' stones and all that...

So, all's well, and you keep yourself well...

now back to as we were......

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 07:09 AM

Keith.
three U.S.-led coalition strikes on a school near Raqqa in March 2017 killed 150 residents - roughly five times the toll acknowledged by the Pentagon, which said at the time that dozens of militants and not civilians were killed.

The U.N. investigators found no evidence that Islamic State fighters were at the school and said the U.S.-led coalition had violated international law by failing in its duty to protect displaced civilians known to be sheltered there since 2012.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 08:36 AM

Iains,
I would have severe reservations about the attribution of casualties

Syria would have reported any.

I know that the coalition and MSM like to emphasize surgical strikes, but even with smart weapons(and what percentage are dumb weapons?) mis targeting occurs.
How many surgical    strikes hit schools, buses,hospitals, generating capacity etc ect.

Again, Syria would have reported any.

The idea that civilians do not get killed by all sides in this conflict is preposterous.

It is preposterous to suggest that Western strikes have killed civilians in this conflict.
There has only been one previous strike against Assad. Last year an air base was hit.
Putin's and Assad's air strikes have caused civilian deaths in this conflict.

The strikes you now refer to were not against Assad or his regime. They were part of the war against ISIS, and not relevant to this discussion.
Syria was also fighting ISIS.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 08:59 AM

Don't say we didn't warn you...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:01 AM

Isis is operating on Syrian territory
The coalition is targeting Syrian territory
Strangely enough Syrians live Syria(Those that have not become refugees)
If Syrians live in Syria and the coalition has carried out thousands of missions releasing munitions in Syria, then it is naive to the point of blockheadedness to refuse to acknowledge that Syrians have likely been killed when in close proximity to explosions.

The Coalition has so far confirmed 218 of 2,493 claimed incidents as causing 770 civilian fatalities. In addition 85 further civilian deaths have been confirmed in unidentified incidents, at least 80 of which were the result of non-US Coalition actions.

In addition to these confirmed events, it is our provisional view at Airwars that between 5,181 and 7,920 civilian non-combatants appear likely to have been killed in 977 further incidents where there is fair and uncontested public reporting of an event – and where Coalition strikes were confirmed in the near vicinity on that date. Some 183 of these likely incidents were in Iraq (1,551 to 2,301 reported deaths) and 794 events in Syria (with a reported fatality range of 3,630 to 5,619.)

At least 1,281 children and 805 women are reported to be among those killed in confirmed and likely events, along with 4,697 or more civilians reportedly injured. Airwars presently lists the names of 2,976 reported civilian fatality victims from confirmed and likely Coalition events.

Across both nations, 151 alleged civilian casualty incidents have so far in our view been discounted, ie are highly unlikely to have involved Coalition aircraft (751 to 1,153 claimed deaths). This categorisation is often a result of Coalition feedback on alleged incidents. An additional 384 to 533 civilians reportedly died in 62 events where the reporting appears fair, but where it remains unclear whether the Coalition carried out any attack in the vicinity on the date in question.

A further 2,353 to 2,741 claimed deaths are attributed to 423 alleged Coalition airstrikes which are presently weakly reported or single-sourced.

An additional 6,581 to 10,271 asserted fatalities resulted from 510 contested events (for example, claims that the Iraq Air Force or proxy ground actions might instead have been responsible.)

Some 149 further contested events (943 to 1,384 deaths) may have involved Russian aircraft in Syria. And 21 additional contested events (139 to 179 deaths) were attributed variously both to the Coalition and to Turkey.
Now stop being a stupid boy and stop arguing. Wars kill people indiscriminately.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 10:35 AM

Iains - it's like trying to reason with a mid Medieval era Crusader...???

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 11:22 AM

Iains, I have appreciated many of your posts on this subject. You have provided many thoughtful, incisive and meaningful contributions and I'm sure many of us on here have learnt from you posts.

However you do not stand any chance at all of educating some people so for the sake of your sanity don't jump through any more hoops it is a complete waste of time. I'm sure you have noticed that I, and some others, ignore the idiot, some would say troll.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:12 PM

Iains,
So you have no interest in the fact that thousands of people are being killed in a totally illegal war performed without UN sanction.

The war against ISIS was sanctioned by UN, so you have just changed wars.

It is estimated in excess of 400,000 Syrians have been killed. The media may call it a civil war, but there is plenty of evidence to
suggest it is a proxy war,

Again, you and the rest of us were discussing the civil war, not the war against ISIS. The alleged poison gas attack was part of the civil war, not the war against ISIS.

This discussian has been about the poison gas attack in Syria and the nerve agent attack in Salisbury. The debate has been about Russia's culpability in those incidents.
Hence the title!

I suggest a new thread if you want to discuss the war against ISIS. Previously everyone here has supported it. You seem to be arguing against it. It should make for an interesting discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:33 PM

May I be so bold to assert that this, and the previous similar titled, thread
responds to the official presumption that Russia dunnit..
Here we ask but what if they didn't.. who else did and why...???

It's an exercise in imaginative conjecture and hypothesis
to prioritise sceptical questioning over dogmatic answers..

That's all - mind stretching fun and games - hopefully to illuminate, rather than trivialise very serious current news events...

Therefore, in this context it's mostly irrelevant and boring if any folks keep banging on and on
that horrible big bastard Russia did it.. over and over again...

Not in this thread please...

Thread drift and interesting diversions are fine, no problems with that...
just stop banging with on with the same old monotonous tune that don't need to be sung here...!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:39 PM

I think it was the zlangrunits of Alpha Centuri.

Either that or it was you. This whodunit business is very suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 12:48 PM

Any one up for writing a very boring overlong new folk song

"Russia dunnit - or did they...???         
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
Russia dunnit - or did they...???         
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
Russia dunnit - or did they...???         
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
Russia dunnit - or did they...???         
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't
yes they did
no they din't

All join in now.. I think you know the words
you should have thought about getting a pint and going for a slash
when the last song finished.
All together now
repeat until last orders bell and chucking out time...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:00 PM

Well Keith in all honesty when it comes to the various sects of headloppers I make no attempt to keep up with the name changes.
There is a narrative that the coalition is fighting the latest reincarnation of terrorists, but there is a strong counter argument that suggests covert support. There are numerous reports of helicopters whisking away the leading lights on the basis of when the going gets tough, the tough get going. It is never questioned where all those shiny brand new toyota technicals come from in their droves
And how do all those US and Nato munitions end up in terrorist hands and territory?
    There is sufficient data out there to suggest that the war about terror and fighting Assad in Syria is really all about promoting regional instability, regime change and the formation of fractious statelets that can be controlled easily.
A dispassionate review of the numerous data sources suggests we are being lied to on a scale that is unprecedented in all prior history.

It is time the emasculated mainstream media reclaimed their independence, integrity and curiosity. They have many questions to both ask and demand answers to.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:20 PM

Iains,
Well Keith in all honesty when it comes to the various sects of headloppers I make no attempt to keep up with the name changes.

So you are unable to distinguish between the war against ISIS and the Syrian civil war!

Hardly worth trying to discuss either with you then.

Like all civilised people, and the UN, I supported the war against the evil and genocidal ISIS. You are on your own on that one.

The West chose not to engage in the civil war, except in response to use of poison gas by Assad.
Russia and Iran chose to engage fully on the side of Assad, who was close to defeat but now close to total victory thanks to them.

Hope that helps.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:32 PM

It seems to me that a chap persistently making 2+2=5.98765432345 to suit his own ends...

ie.. if you said 'that' then what you really mean is...
"this this this this this and this, even though it's basically the opposite of what you meant when you said 'that'..."

is not a very positive, honest, intelligent form of debate...
never has been.. never will be...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 01:35 PM

I'll mention that I've also observed aggressively conservative young americans employ similar argument tactics on youtube...

Not very mature of enlightened.. hopefully they may grow out of it...????

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:25 PM

Question for you good people, when did calling other posters "shits" become part of being civilised.

Just wondering like ..........

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:35 PM

Raggy ... u on the right thread ? your mention of shits is the first on this thread

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:51 PM

Not so Kenny. The offending text, now deleted, read

You shits are in bed with Putin and Assad.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 03:52 PM

For Keith. A slight change of venue to illustrate the media war. I find the viewpoint quite challenging.

https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/media-mass-deception-180409092703608.html

And to follow, a map of Syria showing the dispositions of all combatants. Apart from the US forces. However we are told they are east of the Euphrates (ie the Syrian and Kurdish border)

Now for anyone with a mind to think, the map represents the de facto partitioning of Syria with embedded assets to ensure it's permanence.
The Turks also have a Kurdish problem. (Divide and conquer?) There have been a number of coalition airstrikes in the vicinity of this border on Syrian assets and also on Deir Az Zor when Syria booted the "rebels" out a few months ago
As the map is from Al Jazeera the explanatory notes need to be used with caution.
Now it must be obvious to anyone that the entire area is a mishmash of competing factions, most not very nice people.
Being very cynical, I would say Isis fights the Syrian Army all the time and America carries out sorties on supposed Isis(in reality the Syrian Army) on mondays and thursdays, and the rest of the week is training Isis and rearming them to continue the "good" fight. But slowly the mask is dropping. The end game is regime change. Meanwhile the state dept and pentagon play mix and match.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: bobad
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:08 PM

Question for you good people, when did calling other posters "shits" become part of being civilised.

It has been apologized for so get off your high horse.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:32 PM

I sit corrected :<)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 24 Apr 18 - 04:55 PM

Apologies. No point in babbling about a mythical map above. Here is the link.


https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/interactive/2015/05/syria-country-divided-150529144229467.html

and a more confusing one.

https://syriancivilwarmap.com/

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 04:19 AM

I am sorry for those remarks. I was unwell and not myself when I made them.
I asked Joe to delete them and apologised at the time.

PFR,
It seems to me that a chap persistently making 2+2=5.98765432345 to suit his own ends...
ie.. if you said 'that' then what you really mean is...

I did not invent the fact that Iains suddenly started talking about the war with Isis as if it was part of the civil war in Syria.
I did not invent the fact that when challenged he admitted "in all honesty when it comes to the various sects of headloppers I make no attempt to keep up with the name changes."

Iains,
the rest of the week (USA)is training Isis and rearming them to continue the "good" fight.

Completely untrue. US and Coalition air power has driven ISIS from all its territories and the survivors are now on the run.
Your claim is entirely made up by you. It has not been made by anyone else anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 05:26 AM

Once again, Iains, don't say you was not warned!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:21 AM

Keith part of my response might have been a little tongue in cheek, but there is an underlying grain of truth. You appear to live in a fantasy world where everything can be as simple as black white yes no.
I think I have managed to paint a picture where it is pretty obvious everyone lies through their teeth and everyone that has come to the party has conflicting aims and desires. Humanitarian concerns are on no one's agenda.
Proxy support for Isis via Quatar and Saudi has been alluded to by various sources, and parachute drops of munitions to one set of crazies seems to always end up eventually with the Isis set of crazies. Munitions with clearly established identity and accompanying end user certificates end up in war zones thousands of miles from their stated destination. Planes unload at destinations never logged on any flight plan. Collusion occurs at all levels between many governments. The picture painted by the MSM could hang on any wall, but the bottom feeders thrive.
But never mind, you keep feeding on everything the presstitutes feed you. I prefer to cast my net far wider and as a result I see a far murkier world out there.
Meanwhile for anyone still bothering with this thread a couple of links to consider. The thing to ask yourself is "what game plan" is being followed?
Is the mighty coalition toppling a brutal dictator on the grounds of a humanitarian rescue on an epic scale? One is rather put in mind of the old adage "better dead than red" judging by the resultant death toll.
Or is it blindly following the script outlined by General Wesly Clark ,
the former Supreme Allied commander and Chief of NATO in Europe saying saying that within 5 years(from 2007) seven countries must fall, one of them is Syria.
An alternative view below.

https://www.globalresearch.ca/poison-gas-weapon-of-choice-for-false-news/5635839?utm_campaign=magnet&utm_source=article_page&utm

or the world according to the BBC (what they say is intriguing-what they do not say is significant.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-29004253

The next article is very interesting especially the last paragraphs.

https://www.wired.com/story/terror-industrial-complex-isis-munitions-supply-chain/

Thus far the war in Syria has been by proxy. The most likely candidate to make a severe escalation is Israel. Her continuing raids on Syria will eventually generate retribution. Israel has been a loose cannon in the Middle East for decades. It need to be put on a leash, not encouraged.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:29 AM

OMG - Now you are inviting retribution from bobad as well. Are you a masochist?

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:36 AM

Iains,
support for Isis via Quatar and Saudi has been alluded to by various sources

Yes, and you could have mentioned Turkey too, but no Western involvement.

Thus far the war in Syria has been by proxy.

Then who are the proxy comabatants? No Western country.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Iains
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:40 AM

No Dave. I am having a boring morning so I am playing with Mr. Google.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-qa-is-saudi-arabia-funding-isis

and one for the trump haters here, all's about Hilary


https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/hillary-clinton-wikileaks-email-isis-saudi-arabia-qatar-us-allies-funding-barack-obama-knew
Three cheers for Wikileaks!

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:32 AM

BTW, the lead item on BBC and ITV news today, yet again, is Labour Party anti-Semitism.
Just Labour.
I was right about that too.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:47 AM

Right..

Right then...

Righty tighty - lefty loosey...


... handy to remember for those with loose screws...

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:48 AM

Why on earth is someone going on about antisemitism in a thread about dodgy Russian dealings I wonder.

Trolling I guess. Just ignore it.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 09:57 AM

DtG - you are soooooo right..

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 10:06 AM

That makes a change! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:15 PM

Hmmm. Considering the rampant, naked Tory racism revealed by the Windrush outrage, which is oh so real, oh so awful and oh so disgusting, I should think that the confected "outrage" about so-called Labour antisemitism, whipped up by disaffected anti-Corbynites in Labour and by right-wing Jewish groups such as the Board Of Deputies (the true antisemites), I'm amazed that anyone here should have the balls to bring it up again. What a laugh.

And, to the two trolls likely to respond, that's my piece and don't even begin to THINK that I'll enter into exchanges with you.

Subject: RE: BS: If Russia didn't do it..?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Apr 18 - 06:17 PM

Er, dodgy sentence construction there but you know what I mean innit...