CONCERTINA Advice Solicited

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 08:00 PM

Hello All
          Years ago I bought a 56 botton wheatsone in Cork that was in the old pitch and took it to Harry Crabb in Islington to tune it up. He did a great job on it. I played anglo first in Wales and then started working on English. They both have such great uses I think its wonderful to do both. I use an Anglo Crabb in D/A and an older bastari in G/C and have a 48 buton English wheatstone Metel End. Im not great on any of them but love the music they make. I used the Crabb at christmas time with Lui Collens and was hard pressed to keep the volume proper to be back up not overtop !
      I would try a duet if I had another 20 years and $3000.00 . All the best to all here. I love the botton box for helping out at any rate. !! . Guy

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 16 Jan 04 - 08:34 PM

Hey, Guy-
I'm having a ball with these squeezy-things! Let's get together again and jam sometime!
Allison

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Gurney
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 01:05 AM

I suspect that some of the 'old' tunings are purely because of the auditorium.
I noticed, because I have an excellent tuner on the computer, that the louder/harder you play, the flatter the note gets! It makes sense (to me) that the Salvation Army instruments, being intended for playing outdoors and along with brass instruments, are tuned sharp to compensate for this.
This is a personal theory, and I'm just putting it up to be shot at.
Chris.

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:30 AM

Gurney .. My Jeffries anglos also go flat if you really lean into the bellows...I don't know why.I tried the same thing on a Dipper and it didn't.But you'd have to play awfully hard to bring a sharp concertina into the pitch you want.
   What do you think about concert violinists who tune their violins sharp to be heard above the herd.Could that apply to concertinas.
                     regards Robin

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 05:37 AM

G'day Foolestroupe/Robin,

I would have a fair bit on the extremely variable pitch over the years ... but we only need to concern ourselves with the differing "concert pitches" from the 1830s onward. It is not in any organised form ... in my files, but I'll check with Richard Evans, who has made a crust by tuning / retuning / rescheming concertinas for some decades. That will be more relevant than the limited file I (presntly) have.

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 12:49 AM

Thanks Bob Bolton - re pitch info - when you get a ROUND TUIT... ;-)

Re pitch rise/fall with increased bellows pressure.

I note the comments from Gurney (and unnamed GUEST) above re pitch fall with concertina reeds/pressue increase. Does any body else have any other useful comments in this line, as from my assembled notes (which may be wrong!), in the Accordion 4RM thread I have stated that the pitch of accordion reeds may rise slightly with increased pressure. I don't have pitch measuring instrumentation to hand.

I am aware that the two styles of reeds are built differently, but the full ramifications of mechanics and resultant physics is beyond my level of understanding, so I would like my pedantic monologue to be in line with reality! :-)

With regard to individual players tuning "sharp" for projection, I don't know about that with regard to every instrument, but Piano Accordions were often tuned "sharp" - there is an entry in the aforementioned Accordion thread. There is a real possiblity that some players may have done this.

Robin

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: treewind
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:50 AM

The pitch of reeds does go down at higher pressures. It seems to do it more with low pitched reedsi. It is definitely a fault and can be corrected or at least minimized by a skilled reed man. Conversely a blues harmonca is designed to bend the pitch in that way.

The higher pitch of older instruments, however, has nothing do do with compensation for being played hard, nor "standing out" over the band. I am familiar with a "sharp" instrument that Mary Humphreys uses for singing with occasionally - it is a brass reeded Lachenal English with beautiful sweet tone and it would ruin the instrument to bend the pitch by squeezing too hard. Also it is so far above A=440 (about a quarter tone) that it really can't be played with other instruments - much more that the very slight sharp tuning used on the second voice of a tremolo tuned accordion.

Oh, and concert violinists - what Paganini did occasionally was tune his instrument a whole semitone sharp and then play in D for a passage that was supposed to be in E flat. The result was perfectly in tune but sounded brighter because of the higher string tension.

Anahata

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 06:42 PM

Ah, treewind, thanks...

Does the drop in pitch result from the denser fluidic properties of the air stream when under higher pressure?

The discussion on the 'bluesbox&trade' reveals that there is more to do with harmonica reeds 'bending' in pitch than just air pressure changes. It has more to do with impedence matching of the 'exciter' (the reed) with the air passage, and the resultant effect when there is a change in the relationship.

Yes, there is a distinct difference between the concepts of the 'relative pitch' effect of setting a 'tuning standard' for the whole instrument relative to other instruments, and having individual "Reed Ranks" within an instrument tuned to slightly different pitches for the 'same note" - I discuss the latter in considerable detail with regard to 'tremolo' and 'phasing' effects in the Accordion 4RM thread referred to earlier. I would appreciate any useful comments on that material in case I have made errors.

The higher string tension as used by Paganini affects the projection of the sound. So tuning a 12 string two semitones lower to 'D' and capoing up to play 'normally' in 'E' will thus give a slightly mellower sound? (I am a non guitarist!)

Also, by taking this idea further, - a pianoforte with higher string tension will thus be brighter at the same pitch. The invention of the steel framed piano, especially uprights seems to bear this out - does this mean that the percentage of the higher overtones present in the sound envelope increases?

Robin

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:36 PM

G'day Foolestroupe,

Treewind is right about the flattening under pressure ... and it being worst in the low notes. I was listening to recordings I made of theRev. Alex Richards, back in the '80s - playing in his lovely "stage virtuoso" style on very nice, high-grade Wheatstone concertinas (actually Æolas ... their 8-side top models). Despite recent, and careful, re-tunings there still was a tendency for the big final chords to sound flat if he pushed the volume. I had to suggest that he work in "microphone" terms and lay off the pressure - moving a little closer to the mic. for the final flourishes.

treewind: That Lachenal was probably, originally, tuned to "Kneller Hall" pitch - standard Brass Band pitch of the day. A = 456 is pretty close to a ¼-tone. Most woodwinds and other band instruments of that period would have been at the same pitch, and the brass-reeded concertina would have played happily with flutes &c - without having to push hard ... and sound flat.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: treewind
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:31 AM

I haven't studied the machanics of why reeds go flat when pushed hard, nor how you can compensate for that by adjustment. Next time I see Steve Dickinson I'll ask him. I know it can be done: the (non standard) bottom G on my melodeon was sharp when I bought it but went nicely into pitch when squeezed hard, then when Nils Neilsen had a go at it he put it in tune and it stays in tune under pressure.

Bob: thanks for the details on "Kneller Hall" - I know it's what we called "old pitch" and I suspected it might have had something to do with brass bands and related intruments.

Wandering off topic a bit - yes, tuning a guitar down would make a mellower or weaker sound. Usually such effects are achieved by selecting strings of a heavier or lighter gauge - heavier strings need more tension for the same pitch. (Bit out of my depth because I don't actually play guitar either)

As for steel framed pianos - I guess there's lots of reasons for different sound. Steel would be more rigid and absorb sound energy less than wood so it would sustain better, and it's the higher frequencies that would be absorbed most, hence a brighter sound with steel. But for all I know higher string tension might help too.

Anahata

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:59 AM

There are some interesting papers on the subject of free-reed acoustics, including the variation of frequency with pressure, at:

http://www.public.coe.edu/%7Ejcotting/acoustics.html

The 1998 paper has some preliminary information on the effect of air pressure and the second Berlin paper has more detail.

Howard Mitchell

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:57 PM

I get a 504 gateway error trying the site above...

Robin

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:09 AM

So do I today. It looks like the server at coe.edu is down.
Keep trying.

Mitch

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: Mitch the Bass
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:24 PM

Seems to be back up again now.

http://www.public.coe.edu/%7Ejcotting/acoustics.html

Mitch

Subject: RE: CONCERTINA Advice Solicited
From: curmudgeon
Date: 21 Jan 04 - 05:25 PM

First of all, you all need to go here. It may take some digging around, but all questions herein posted have answers there. And if they haven't yet, they will after you ask them.

While this group is not quite as warm and outgoing as Mudcat, it is a great source of knowledge provided by many helpful and clever folks.

Squeeze on -- Tom