Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 01 Mar 07 - 01:00 PM

Thanks for the imput on sea chanties. I have a problem myself when work songs or spirituals are heavily arranged, as if they were art songs. Ferbuary is Black History month over here. (The other eleven months are White History months... :-) We end up doing a lot of spirituals when we sing. One of them has various names.. we call it Wait 'Till I Put On My Robe. (sounds like a response to.. "Honey, someone's at the door..") I like to sing it where the harmonies come in on the "response" in an informal way, with two lines coming in on the "wait", one after the other, with all the lines holding for the harmony. It's hard for me to imagine black slaves picking cotton in Alabama when it's over 100 degrees in the blazing sun, getting into a heated argument because everyone didn't come in on the same beat. Much of black music was originally polyrhythmic, anyway. It's like a chorale doing an arrangement of Take This Hammer, with everyone singing the "huh!" at the swinging of the hammer in perfect harmony, being careful to enunciate the huh with perfect intonation. In trying to "elevate" the form, they end up looking foolish. But then, that's only in my eyes..

To each his zone

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Marc Bernier
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 12:04 AM

Hey there Charlie. I don't believe you had posted yet when I stared mine. I'm finding it quite amusing that it took me an hour and a half to finish that thought. and 14 more to check it.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:44 AM

Marc-

:~)

Here's what Cicely Fox Smith had to say about some shanty singer revivalists in the 1920's from the introduction of her collection of traditional sea songs called A BOOK OF SHANTIES, pp. 14-15:

"...let me briefly describe a painful experience of my own as to how not to do it. It was at a music hall which shall be nameless. The curtain rose, revealing one of those impossible stage inns -- made of creeper and green trellis at sevenpence-ha'penny a lineal foot -- called "The Jolly Tar," or something equally improbable. Outside this preposterous establishment were seated at a small table three large mariners, whose costume -- an artistic blend of jerseys, seaboots, cheesecutter and stocking caps -- suggested that they had made an indiscriminate raid on the slop chest at the Sailors' Home. Quoth one of these worthies to another: 'Let's have a tchahntey!' and amid encouraging cries of 'A tchahntey -- yes, a tchahntey!' the individual addressed rose, and, with a wealth of dramatic gesture, laying aside his churchwarden pipe, sang -- well, I just forget what he did sing! It was too painful to listen to...Strong men have wept to see such things done: murmuring the while in voices broken with emotion that they wished they had that blank-blank crowd on watch in the old This-That-or-the-Other, in order that they might perform the interesting nautical operation of knocking eight bells out of them."

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: ClaireBear
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 02:00 PM

Back in my folk trio days, when we sang unaccompanied we sang in three-part harmony. Two of us, however, were harmony-impaired, so it became crucial to craft harmonies that were (almost) as innately singable as the melody...somewhere between what Wysiwyg calls heterophony and "simultaneous horizontal melodies." That way, the harmony-impaired could learn their parts as melody lines and pretend they were singing lead, which helped them get it right.

We used unison, too, both across the trio and between any two of the three of us. Sometimes we used it as as punctuation on important lyrics or to accent a key melodic bit (like what you'll often find in church music). But more often, we doubled up on notes to insert a stripped-down chord (tonic and dominant only, tonic and subdominant only...that sort of thing) between more complex chords as "ear relief" -- a necessary "rest" for the audience because we tended to use rather bizarre chords/harmonies. (Good, though...)

Why I started this is because once, for an a cappella competition, we commissioned a vocal arrangement (of Eric Bogle's "The Moggie Song") from a professional musician. She chose to write our arrangement in "barbershop," a style about which we knew next to nothing. Her work was spectacular, and in it we never came together on a single note. But gosh, was it hard to learn! The intervals were all dimished fifths and augmented ninths -- a memorization nightmare. Very inorganic, somehow counter-intuitive...not a harmony conceived in nature, meaning you'd never burst spontaneously into one of those parts. But impressive -- heck yeah. And fun to sing, once we'd learned how to do that.

Speaking as the token non-harmonically-impaired member of the aforementioned trio, I think that in the average melody there are places that cry out to be enhanced with rich harmonies -- and other places that are best left more austere through the use of unison or two-note harmony. I think that varying the level of harmonization strengthens an arrangement by adding depth and texture.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it!

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 03:35 PM

Great response, Claire: I like your observation about different sections of the music calling for simpler harmonies. I like to hear some dynamics in an arrangement, not only in the harmony, but in power. We do songs where we're all singing a strong Ahhhh behind the lead singer when we really want to emphasis the words of a line, and then we drop down to a very soft ooooh... I'ts like dropping a powerfull phrase onto a soft velvet cushion. It makes the whole message of the song resonate.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:53 PM

Jerry,

You want "get offa my note"? You ain't lived til you try being in a bluegrass group (maybe you've done it). Those guys-- at least some-- are downright fanatical. Not only does the note have to be in the chord--that's fine. But only a particular voice is allowed to sing a particular note. Even if 2 singers want to switch notes-- (no duplication)-- that's frowned on too.

I love close harmony--and I love bluegrass. I'm very willing to go to a 5th if somebody else wants the 3rd. But the bluegrass approach (it seems to me) is just too rigid--though I agree with those who frown on "uptown" chords in bluegrass.

What I do in bluegrass these days is just to sing the bass--1 -4- 5- 1-- (or variations on that)-- usually. But in bluegrass there's only room for a bass in gospel bluegrass--well, I suppose bluegrass is the "high and lonesome sound"--so that's the way it is.

Sea chanteys--well I had a sea chantey group once upon a time. We only rehearsed once a year--for our one gig. It was pulling teeth to get all the schedules to coincide--though there were only usually about 7 of us--for even one rehearsal. So one year we had none--and it went just fine. Rough edges in sea chanteys--no problem.

When we did rehearse --well it depends on what your goal is. If your goal is richness of sound, or close harmony, you don't want much duplication. If it's power, or a stark beauty, duplication adds. So in chanteys, it's often a good idea. Classical composers often used duplication --esp on 1 and 5--tonic and dominant--to convey power--figuratively and literally. And in Sacred Harp (which I also sing). there's lots of duplication in octaves--it does add to the power of the sound--especially if in different voices--say bass and treble--and especially if there's no 3rd.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 02 Mar 07 - 10:54 PM

But I bet you knew all that.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 08:50 AM

If you learn to read full 'Symphonic Scores' - the conductor's copy, that is - you will see much 'doubling' of phrases by many different sections of the orchestra all the time, and much 'counterpoint & harmony...

It's not unlike playing a pipe organ with dozens of ranks of differing sounding and pitched ranged pipes to be coupled in or out as desired - or one of those organs with hammond draw bars: you have all these different tonal qualities to compare and contrast or reinforce to generate new tonal sounds.

... and you 'f*lk lot' get all excited over juggling just a couple of human voices at once like it's some new discovery?!!!


:-)


:P

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 11:59 AM

Hey Robin--

It's not "some new discovery". It's just fun. I certainly agree that classical music has a greater richness of harmony than other types--after all, consider the palette the classical composer has to work with--but just voices harmonizing is also fascinating--as you know from works by Byrd and Tallis--to pick two of the absolute top in classical choral writing. (Interestingly enough, they were both Catholic in Elizabethan England--but that sounds like pretty egregious thread creep.)

Anyway, there's no reason to look down on so many other different types of unaccompanied singing--which are also immensely satisfying--and wonderful fun.

This thread started out by inquiring about the differences in attitude in various kinds of non-classical music towards people singing the same note in harmony groups-----a perfectly fine question---and one which has resulted in lots of interesting information.

I think Jerry has another winner.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 12:20 PM

Hey, Ron:

How nice to see you in here. I really enjoyed your contributions, and whether I knew what you posted or not isn't the question. To me, knowledge is to be shared, not to be used to establish superiority. We are all experts on some things. And woefully ignorant on others. Lack of knowledge is never something to be apologetic about. The only way that we grow is to ask questions.

Years ago, I used to tell my friend Pat Conte who is an international expert on ethnic music of the world that I was his "Unplowed Field." (I knew nothing about the traditional music of Tahiti, for example.) We are all unplowed fields in some areas of knowledge. And here's to all the unplowed fields! What a pleasure to share our knowledge of things that we love with those who have a desire to learn more!

I still have enough unplowed fields in my knowledge to keep a cadre of friends joyfully busy for the rest of my life.

Ain't it exciting!

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: BB
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 01:55 PM

I think one of the wonderful things about human voices is that, no matter how apparently discordant, they can blend and make those harmonies acceptable to the ear where using those same harmonies with instruments can make many people squirm! I can certainly listen to some of the more modern classical composers' compositions for a cappella singing, and really relish the harmonies, but hate those same composers' instrumental pieces.

Having said that, I'm not keen on 'clever' harmonies in folk songs - I believe that they tend to detract from the words, which IMO is the most important aspect of folk song. Contrapuntal harmonies to folk songs are I think, 'unnatural', and those that are 'instinctive' are more likely to get the words across. I didn't always think that way, but I cringe now at some of the 'written' arrangements that I used to sing!

Oh, and the 'get off my note' syndrome makes for some hefty bruises on the upper arm from the next singer's elbow!

Barbara

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 03 Mar 07 - 08:39 PM

"wonderful things about human voices is that, no matter how apparently discordant, they can blend and make those harmonies acceptable to the ear where using those same harmonies with instruments can make many people squirm!"

Modern instruments are mostly fixed in 'equal temper' intonation - human voices generally will, in close live proximity, tend to drift into 'just' intonaton...

But that's already been discussed in other threads...

:-)
~~~~~

"It's not "some new discovery". It's just fun."

It is definitely 'a new discovery' for those who do not go thru formal 'classical' music training process with a fixed syllabus. Sadly many seem to want to make a big case for NOT doing this sort of training (not necessarily 'the full bottle' for everyone, but many basics are easier to understand if taught in some form of rational staged manner), as if that somehow gives them more 'street cred' in 'f*lk music'.

As an old Interdisciplinarian*, I can say that many of the 'basic truths' in life carry over from one area of knowledge to another - music is music, and certain knowledge basics just make life easier...

:-)

* once called 'Renaissance Man'... :-)

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Genie
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 12:59 AM

Jerry,
I have no problem with harmony lines occasionally sharing notes or counter-melodies crossing over each other.

I grew up singing in church, both in the choir and in the congregation, and it's not at all uncommon for the altos and tenors, or for all 4 parts occasionally to share a note. Plus, I'm partial to countermelodies, as opposed to harmonies that consistently stay above or below the melody. Countermelodies often do hit the same note as the main melody in a few places.

Where's the harm?

In fact, maybe one reason I'm not wild about barbershop is the overemphasis on always having 4 distinct scale notes on each word of the song. Paradoxically, I think having the various parts sometimes hit 4 different points of the scale, sometimes split onto 2 separate notes, and sometimes all sing in unison ADDS variety and complexity to the presentation beyond the usual "barbershop" 4-part harmony.

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 04 Mar 07 - 01:04 PM

Some good observations, Genie:

And I agree with all of them. One thing I've learned through the experience of singing with a Men's Chorus there last ten years is that parallely harmonies can get boring reallll fast. As a kid, just naturally tended to sing parallel harmonies... as much as anything, I suppose, because that's what I heard in a lot of popular music. When I first heard the Four Freshmen, I realized that there was a whole world of harmony that I never knew existed. I was flipping through a bin of 78's and came across Tuxedo Junction, and bought it just because it was by a quartet. I had no idea that the song was a wordless vocal arrangement of a big band song. My ear was attuend to the Four Lads, The Four Aces, The Four Knights, The Four Tunes and the Four Lorns. When I first formed the Gospel Messengers, I had no real idea how to arrange the songs, other than to make them sound like what I heard in my head. One of the things that I learned quickly... both in the Men's Chorus and the Messengers, is that the bass line needs to be greatly simplified. Singing a bass harmony that parallels the lead sound really stupid.
I realize now that the push harmony that strengthen the lead vocalist follows much the same pattern, simplifying the harmony down to a few key notes that help support the chord changes. The flow from four part harmony on some lines, to an occasional shared note, and a two or three part harmony, while breaking up the rhythm and switching from an instrumental background to an a capella line keeps the song moving.

Right now, I'm thinking out harmonies and rhythm for our new tenor to lead Just A Closer Walk With Thee. He's sung the lead with a full choir, and with a quartet, the arrangement needs to be very different.

I'm finding this thread a real help in clarifying my own thoughts. I hope some of you are finding it helpful, too.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Hey, You! Get Off Of My Note!
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 Mar 07 - 05:04 AM

Jerry,

You have mentioned things learned from your experience in the School of hard Knocks, the very things that are drummed mindlessly into young 'formal' music students by rote...

:-)

Of course, I'm not really saying that way is better, mind you.... :-)