Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?

Subject: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Greenfield
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 10:04 AM

Hello all

I was wondering if anyone had any interesting insights into why there are so many Irish music nights in England, but very few Scottish ones. Scottish music is brilliant!

Any thoughts most welcome.

Thanks,

G.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 10:06 AM

It may be brilliant, it is also not quite as popular?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 11:14 AM

I don't think we get as many Scots as Irish in England.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 11:55 AM

In the 60's there were folk clubs in and around London run by Scots and Pseudo Scots, yet apart from one, (guess which) not that many Scots songs were sung, apart from the obligatory Wild Mountain Thyme, and some folks though that was Irish :)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 01:28 PM

Based on population numbers there should be more Yorkshire songs than Scottish ones.

Robin

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 08:24 PM

A Scottish friend who lives south of London often joined us in Scotland during the Zoom era: he delighted in playing strathspeys, as he said his English session friends couldn’t get their heads or fingers around all the “Scotch snaps”.
Up here, most instrumental sessions will include a good mix of Scottish, Irish, American and Scandi tunes - even the occasional English ones!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Oct 24 - 11:24 PM

Most sessions in England I've been to have been a good old healthy mix. I've even sneaked a few Northumbrian tunes in.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:10 AM

Steve,
          Northumbrian tunes ARE actually English although many Southern folk do not know that

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 06:57 AM

There was a time when you didn't even get that many Scottish tunes in sessions "Here in Scotland" but, thankfully, that has changed now.

There was always Scottish music, of course, but it wasn't a pub session thing.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Nov 24 - 09:19 PM

Quite so, Guest, but I meant in among those predominantly Irish and Scottish tunes. Incidentally, quite a few "Irish" tunes have evolved from Scottish tunes anyway.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 04:48 AM

In my experience, while the traditional music culture is fairly healthy in Scotland, in Ireland it's even more so. That fact, combined with the fact that there's been more migration from Ireland to England than from Scotland to England, might have go some way towards proving an answer to the original question.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 05:46 AM

Northumbrian tunes seem to be popular all over the place: as with Irish v Scottish crossover, there is also a sharing of tunes between Scots and Northumbrians, with the same tune having different titles on either side of the Border.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:00 AM

Incidentally, quite a few "Irish" tunes have evolved from Scottish tunes anyway.

It seems to me that a lot of songs, such as Dirty Old Town, end up as being described as Irish, no matter where they come from.

DC

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 06:51 AM

Even Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land", for instance.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 02 Nov 24 - 07:23 AM

Back in the 60s/70s, Irish migrant workers in England got together in pubs in the larger cities and played their music together. And they were most welcoming to others who wanted to join in, at a time when instrumental competence was generally frowned on in the English folk scene. Combine that with a much smaller Scots community, and the general pub- unfriendliness of GBH pipes, and that Scottish music and dance was "showcased" by atrocities such as the White Heather Club on TV.

Scottish song fared better, having a reasonable airing from the likes of Robin Hall and Jimmy McGregor, the Hootenanny TV program and stuff like that.

And of course the fact that more recently many people don't realise that Alba exists, and the music is great when the budget allows it and it's not shoved aside by East Fife v Stranraer in the fog. By the time bands like Ossian were around, folk had generally disappeared from mainstream media and become ghettoised as a minority interest at listener- unfriendly hours on radio.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Greenfield
Date: 03 Nov 24 - 02:20 PM

This is really helpful, all - PMB, that all makes a lot of sense. I was pondering this question due to the fact that Irish music sessions in England seem to be frequented (mainly, where I live) by English players - some very fine ones, no issue there - and while Scots tunes (more than Scots songs) are played too, it doesn't appear to hold quite the same sway. I wonder whether the English feel more comfortable performing Irish music as it's more of a global brand, than they are with Scottish music? Inarticulate musings from me, but enjoying this thread very much, many thanks.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 03 Nov 24 - 05:13 PM

" English players "

It all depends what you mean by English, of course.

Getting involved in discussions about ethnicity can be a risky process on these forums and it's easy to upset people. So I'll be careful.

I think it's highly likely that many of these players will be of Irish descent and/or musical friends. There are and have been "Irish Music Scenes" in both England and Scotland for many years. The core of these usually have an obvious connection with the homeland but also attract many local non Irish musicians.

As I mentioned earlier, there was far less of a Scottish scene even in Scotland itself as far as pub sessions went until relatively recently...it only really took off from the late seventies onwards.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 05:06 AM

PMB makes some good points, but I don't really agree with the observation about the highland bagpipes. I would agree that they're not suited to pub performance, but there are other types of Scottish pipes which are more suitable - the smallpipes, for example. The highland pipes constitute their own ecosystem, I think, which is separate from the session scene - that's to say, they're not really a 'folk' instrument like the fiddle or smallpipes. They're more of a courtly and martial instrument.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Jim bainbridge
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 05:39 AM

a few thoughts

   Historically, Irish music was never played in pubs in Ireland, it was in peoples' homes. The Irish workers who rebuilt London postwar lived in lodgings and had no kitchens & the modern pub music trsdition was the result.
   Educate yourselves about this time by listening to Reg Hall's talk about Irish music in London at ITMA some years ago. on youtube, see 'Reg Hall-Irish in London'- I don't do lnks.

   I moved to West Cork in 1985, and there was very little Irish music in the Mizen area. What did exist was played in the pubs by largely English people who had come through the folk clubs & aware of the real Irish tradition, while the locals were not. It had its limitations but maybe those 'blow-ins' woke something up & there seems to be a thriving scene there nowadays.
So-called 'sessions' vary a lot, but, I do note that the Irish are much more into actual participation, e.g in 'Rosie's of Ballydehob or 'Arundels' in Schull, locals were much more inclined to join in, or shout out 'I'll give you a song' than they are in rural Scotland, where I now live

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: meself
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 12:02 PM

An observation from a North American perspective .... Every village of 500 people in North America has a Chinese restaurant; every town of 1,000 has an Irish pub (e.g., "Kelly's", with a shamrock on each side of the name). Drinking establishments with a blatantly Scottish connection, OTOH, are few and far between. Scottish music has been mainly in the home, in dance halls/venues (e.g., parish halls, community centres, schoolhouses) as dance music, and in community concerts. My impression is that for many Scottish-style musicians - in N. Am., at least - there tends to be some discomfort with large-group/session playing, as opposed to solo, duo, trio situations.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 12:24 PM

As I said, even "Here in Scotland", there weren't too many Scottish sessions in pubs.

Even in the likes Sandy Bells and other "folkie" establishments, it was mainly songs and what tune sessions there were tended to be mostly Irish.

A lot of this changed from the late seventies onwards with lots of Scottish groups coming to the fore.. e.g. JTB and Silly Wizard in Edinburgh + Hom Bru who moved there, The Battlefield Band, Ossian, The Tannies...later the likes of Ceolbeg and so on.

So, we had Scottish Sessions emerging in places like The Fiddlers Arms, Sandy Bells, West End and so on. Even then, there was lots of Irish music dominating overall.

Some festivals such as Keith, Newcastleton featured a lot of Scottish music too but I remember when Irish tunes were even very common up in Keith and Newcastleton was always a good mixture of Scottish, Northumbrian, and Irish.

I also think Scots Music Courses and the like also helped to encourage the spread of Scottish music too but that was more from the 90s onwards.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 04 Nov 24 - 03:02 PM

I'll add that in my experience, which is currently somewhat limited, Irish sessions in England seem to be slowly dwindling at the moment- a combination of pub closures, aggressive Sky TV, bistroisation, inept and uninterested landlords, and perhaps a reduction in migration from Ireland.

My memories of Irish pubs in the 70s/ early 80s are that if there was live music, it was likely to be either showbands, Irish and Western, or rather selfconsciously organised and curated trad sessions with a good deal of Comhltas about them. That would be rural- I also remember some cracking stuff in Cork city.

Quite right about GHB- there are other Scottish pipes and excellent they are too- but they were pretty uncommon until relatively lately. I can't remember seeing them in the wild before the late 80s. Back in the 70s, Pack Dyer in Manchester had a set of pipes- I can't remember whether GHB or Brian Boru- which he very occasionally brought out and played setpieces on. He'd thinned down the reeds to tame them a bit.

But back to the Scottish sessions. One point that comes to mind is that back in the day, Scottish city pubs could be pretty desperate places, and landlords might not have taken kindly to activities that got in the way of drinking.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 05 Nov 24 - 05:20 AM

Some good points, PMB.

Mind you, I think that's a large part of the problem today with landlords. They still don't want to encourage activities which might interfere with their business whether it be the football/sports fans watching the big screen or "family meals" and the like.

So many of the pubs were are quite "desparate" today as well.

However, I started drinking in the sixties(I shouldn't have been) but I can still recall some very nice pubs too. They often had nice snugs and lounges which were ideal for gatherings. Nowadays, most of these have been "knocked into" large rooms.

Glasgow and The West Central Belt may have been a bit different but there were certainly nice establishments "Up North" and in Edinburgh too when I visited. Also in Aberdeen, as I recall.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 10:53 AM

Quite simply, Irish music had better PR.

Before the rediscovery of English music around 1980 most of the tunes played in sessions in England were Irish. Bands like The Chieftains, Planxty, Bothy Band, De Danaan and others were popular. Scottish music on the other hand had a fairly low profile and was mainly associated with the White Heather Club and Scottish Country Dancing, and seemed old-fashioned by comparison. The exception was Shetland music, which had higher profile, probably largely thanks to Aly Bain (and which some would argue isn't really Scottish).

Nowadays the scope of music is much wider. Irish music remains popular, and not just amongst those with Irish antecedents, English music has had a revival, and French, Scandi, Klezmer and other genres can also be found. Scottish music still hasn't captured the English imagination and seems still to be mainly played by exiled Scots.

I also wonder whether the Scottish enthusiasm for playing in A is factor in a session world dominated by D/G melodeons?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 12:22 PM

I am not sure that 'better PR' isn't a bit lazy. As far as I remember there was a contingent of Scottish groups on the road doing their bit
The Tannahil Weavers, Battlefield Band, Ossian, Silly Wizzard, Five Hand reel etc were very much present during the later seventies and early eighties.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: meself
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 02:36 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't those Scottish bands play an awful lot of Irish tunes?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 03:30 PM

I admit that "better PR" is a bit glib. Of course there were Scottish bands, but I don't recall them making much impression on the part of the folk scene in southern England I was involved in at that time, certainly not to the extent of the Irish bands. I'd certainly heard of those bands, but I don't think I heard their music much. There just seemed to be a lot more Irish music around then, whereas I heard very little Scottish, and that of course influenced what was played in sessions.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 06 Nov 24 - 04:14 PM

I don't know if this has more to do with politics within the BBC than popularity but of all the regular folk on BBC radio there are two english programmes (Sunday-Tim Walker & Wednesday-Mark Radcliffe) a couple of Irish and Welsh programmes and over a dozen Scottish programmes.

---

Here's the BBC page which lists their current Weekly/Monthly/Seasonal radio programmes* (and a few one-offs).

- NB open the link in a browser; don't just click the link or it will try to open your 'Sounds' app and this doesn't provide the same information as the web page -
www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/category/music-folk?sort=title

*One regular programme missing from the page above :
Iain Anderson (country, folk, blues and soul) r2
www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0074hkv/episodes/player

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 04:15 AM

There are also lots of Scottish music programmes on BBC Alba, the Gaelic language TV channel which is available on BBC iPlayer

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 07:06 AM

There seems to me, a bit of a tendency among some English folkies (and I am not pointing at you Howard) to dissmuss Irish music and say that the Irish pushed their music unfairly and that all things had been equal a lot of people would instead be playing/singing Englush, Scottish and what have you, material.

I don't think it's quite that simple. Thinking back to the seventies/early eighties, where I was at least, there was a lot on offer: the bands I mentioned above and other Scottish bands seemed on tour all the time. English bands too, I remember seeing the Etchingham Steam band at the time the Thompsons, various iterations of the Albion, Fairport offshoots and a wide variety of other English performers appearing alongside Irish bands at small venues, concerts and festivals. So I don't think it was for want of exposure that some types of music were to become more popular and widespread than others. Make of that what you will.

I do think the success of Irish bands lead to musicians in various aces to examine more local music. Within Ireland it became alright to examine local, Kerry, Donegal, Oriel, repertoires. And in other countries you had all sorts of groups exploring local music, the Netherlands and Flanders had Rum, Chimera, Wolverley, Perelaar and others, during the seventies I listened a lot to various French groups, Pierre de Grenoble,    Malicorne, La Bamboche, Gentian as well as some of the Breton music riding the wave Alan Stivell stirred up. So, really, it's not like this stuff wasn't there to be heard and taken up.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Petet Laban
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 08:08 AM

I'll grant you though that in Ireland an infrastructure has been built, between the Willie Clancy Summer School setting a template for learning and passing on traditional music, ITMA, Arts Council grants, university courses etc that has been greatly beneficial to the traditional music community. Not sure I'd call it PR or how that would influence the nature of sessions outside the island but there you have it.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 10:09 AM

Peter, I'm not suggesting for a moment that the Irish pushed their music unfairly. What I am trying to say is that in my experience during the 70s in England instrumental music seemed to usually mean Irish. Maybe that became a self-perpetuating loop - because we were playing Irish music we were perhaps more receptive to Irish bands. I just don't recall the Scottish bands having the same impact, at least not to the extent that their material was picked up in sessions.

English music at that time was largely forgotten and ignored until the English Country Music revival in the mid-70s, but I don't blame the Irish for that. Now English music sessions are widespread, but Irish music remains very popular. There is of course a large Irish diaspora here, and a strong network promoting Irish music and dance through Comhaltas and Irish social clubs, and that feeds into the wider session world and influences players with no personal Irish connections. The Scottish diaspora doesn't seem to have as strong a network, with the possible exception of pipe bands.

That doesn't explain why Scottish music still doesn't seem to have captured the English imagination in the same way. Having said that, Scottish tunes do sometimes get played in the sessions I attend, but I think sessions which are mainly Scottish and which aim to play in a proper Scottish style are comparatively rare in England.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,RA
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 11:17 AM

I'd argue that with England and Scotland, it goes both ways. It's pretty rare, in my experience, to hear English tunes in Scottish sessions.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 07 Nov 24 - 06:43 PM

Not sure where “over a dozen Scottish programmes” comes from, unless you are including the weekly country music and more pop orientated ones?
Radio Scotland has been progressively reducing its music output over the years, in favour of more chat shows and sport. Travelling Folk used to be on twice a week (same programme but repeated.) The Reel Blend was axed a few years back, and Take the Floor, for the dance band enthusiasts, is down to one hour. Then we have the Piping programme, but the rest doesn’t really fit the folk and trad genre, apart from some of what Iain Anderson plays.
But yes, we have BBC ALBA to be thankful for, albeit multiple repeats shown.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 03:08 AM

There's also the Gary Innes request Show which is somewhat similar to what The Reel Blend used to be.... A bit corny at times, mind you.

I thought Take The Floor was still two hours? Sadly, thse programmes also suffer if there is a football match or other sport competing.

We still have a piping programme which is quite good but I miss Gary West. Also, one or two "countryish" things but I'm not sure if that counts or not.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 03:24 AM

I'm not sure if it's been mentioned but the likes of Fairport Convention, Steeleye Span and others also included many Scottish and Irish tunes in their sets back in the day.

Also, Scottish and Irish bands would have included songs and tunes from each other's countries too. The Dubliners sang "Mormon Braes" for instance and The Bothy Band played "the Laird of Drumblair".
The JSD Band also played lots of tunes from Ireland and further beyond.

I think in recent years, traditional music has general become more ghettoised or, maybe, specialised (to use a less controversial term).
There now seems to be various groups, gatherings etc which like to focus on on certain genres in much more detail where as there used to be much more of a mixture and cross over. More "purist", I suppose, although the term has slightly different connations now and is not necessarily derogatory any more. There seems to be an exclusive project or gathering for just about every form of trad music in Edinburgh these days.

Yes, I do know that many of the younger bands still mix things up a bit, push the boundaries and so on but that's more a perfromance thing.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Beachcomber
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 09:27 AM

I remember that several young Scottish lads came to my home town in Southern Ireland around 1965 and stayed for the entire Summer. They had guitars and mandolins and played mostly the songs of Hall & McGregor , The Whistlebinkies, Archie Fisher, Alex Campbell and The Corrie Folk Trio. These youngsters hailed from the Glasgow area of East Kilbride and had been inspired by what they had been hearing in their local pubs, so they told me. Of course they soon picked up some Clancy Bros and Dubliners material as well !
I wonder if Robin Thompson or Angus McLean are still playing, somewhere ? :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 12:41 PM

I've only just seen this thread and must comment on
> In the 60's there were folk clubs in and around London run by Scots and Pseudo Scots, yet apart from one, (guess which) not that many Scots songs were sung, apart from the obligatory Wild Mountain Thyme, and some folks though that was Irish :) <

It surely is Irish, being a McPeake re-write of Braes of Balquidder, as discussed elsewhere on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:25 PM

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:28 PM

I love a lot of Scottish music and, controversially in folk circles, a lot of Irish music leaves me cold :-( Nowt wrong with Irish stuff, just that a lot of the sessions in pubs do nowt for me. I also love English dance music and find that the dance rhythms and pace suit my ear more than the diddly diddly stuff in Irish bars.

But that is just me.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:33 PM

Whilst an Irish session at its best adds a lot to the pub atmosphere, depending on the pub of course, the musicians are generally not "performing" for an audience but are playing for themselves. It sounds selfish, but it works. Of course, a good bunch of sessioneers wil respond to requests for a song or two, of course!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 01:36 PM

They don't like repeated calls for The Wild Rover though. I know. I still have the scars :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Nov 24 - 05:45 PM

I'm no singer. I'm an enthusiastic joiner-inner (in fact, earlier this evening at a lady's 80th birthday party I was belting out "I'm a Believer"), and the only song I've ever sung solo was Wild Rover. It was New Year's Eve at our pub session. Somebody asked for it, and my five-pints-of-Guinness-fuelled self launched into it, fully expecting everyone else round the table to join in lustily. They didn't, the funking barstewards, and I didn't have the guts to stop. I mean, what could I do. There was no hole in the ground for me to get swallowed up...

Anyway, back to the fray... :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 05:43 AM

Playing tunes I've learned in Scotland in English sessions is frustrating. I keep being told I ought to be playing them at half-speed, in G ...

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 06:13 AM

Don't forget the huge difference between the infrastructure of English folk (I know little about the Scottish scene) and Irish sessions, especially back in the day. The session is a place where everybody knows what they've come to do, and do it together. It's a specialist musical platform. Proficiency is appreciated, but egotism can all to easily wreck a session. The musicians get warmed up and into the swing over the first few tune sets. In pop up sessions (like at festivals) the musicians are getting to know each others' tastes and capabilities, and the tenor (hopefully not banjo*) of the session develops. It has its restrictions; G, D and related keys predominate. Though there was a fashion for fiddlers to tune up a semitone about 30 years ago. I never worked out whether that was to line up with sharp flutes or to spite the box players.

I think the CD "Music At Matt Molloy’s" captured this quite nicely, starting tentatively, working up to a full head of steam, then a musicians' break and a bit of singing, the whole thing getting a bit drop taken, but finally rallying for a great send- off.

The folk club was (is?) a place where people came to do their own thing, serially, and can cover a huge range of types of material, delivery styles, keys etc. Instrumental music is often difficult to fit in this, each set starts from cold. And you don't know, going into a strange club, what the local rules are. I remember clubs where songs deemed to be "music hall" were streng verboten.

Add to this the antipathy to competence some folk clubs affected back then, the attitude that "ceremonial" music should only be performed in full context, and the sometimes poor quality of records available for learning tunes from (musicians "collected" in old age and clearly past their best).

BTW I'm a Believer works beautifully on a McCann Duet concertina. I'll play it for you sometime, if you're not quick enough to stop me.

* I recall with horror a session where I ended up stuck in a crowd of 6 tenor banjos. It was like working in a shipyard.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 08:26 AM

I'll try Believer on my G/D Anglo :-)

Didn't get it for Irish where C/G work better BTW but mainly for English folk and Morris.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 08:34 AM

Talking of which, cam anyone explain to me why a lot of Irish concertina players choose a C/G when a G/D does the job without using the accidentsls?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 09:28 AM

> cam anyone explain to me why a lot of Irish concertina
> players choose a C/G

To fit in with us five-string banjo players.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,PMB
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 10:42 AM

Irish concertina players usually use a cross-the-rows fingering which works out smoother for reel playing. That's been one of the big changes over the last 40 or 50 years- English melodeon players developed a cross fingering that transformed the instrument from the humpty-dumpty jerky sound to a smooth flow. Irish players use(d?) either BC or CC# boxes, which give a smooth tune line but never had any chords that worked. I suppose that fits better with Irish dancing, at least one hand does nothing. Jimmy Shand apparently had a special three- row box made, CC#D I think, with a piano- accordion left end so more chords than soft Mick.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Nov 24 - 11:11 AM

He did, PMB! I believe it was named the Shand accordion. I could be wrong but I believe John Kirkpatrick plays one. Talking of Shand and back to Scottish music - I never realised his influence on Scottish music until I began to learn piano accordion. My teacher gave me loads of music written by Jimmy himself. I never did them justice but did recognise quite a few which I thought were traditional tunes

As an aside, I sometimes sing a fake hunting song called three jolly sportsmen (taking the piss out of huntsmen). The chorus uses hunting calls - "With a ran-tan-tan and a chivy-chivy-chan". I have been known to sing "...and a Jimmy Jimmy Shand" :-)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 14 Nov 24 - 08:15 PM

Not sure where “over a dozen Scottish programmes” comes from,

I wasn't judging the folkiness, just going by what the bbc listed on their 'folk' page. (link above)

Music Planet(world music mainly) (r3)
The Folk Show With Mark Radcliffe (r2)
Tim Walker's Folk (Lincolnshire)

Ambell i Gân (Cymru)
Celtic Heartbeat (Wales)
Georgia Ruth (Cymru)

* Blas Ceoil - (Radio Ulster)
Folk Club with Neil Martin (Ulster)
Trad Ar Fad! (Ulster)

A' Mire ri Mòir (Nan Gàidheal)
Caithream Ciùil (Nan Gàidhea)
Catgut and Ivory (Scotland)
Claire and Friends (Scotland\Shetland)
Crùnluath (Nan Gàidheal)
Fae Hameaboot (Scotland)
Iain Anderson (Scotland)
Oota Da Cans (winter only) (Scotland)
Orkney Folk Music with Jennifer Wrigley (Scotland\Orkney)
Orkney Irish Country \What's the Craic with Colin Kirkness (Scotland\Orkney)
Orkney Scottish Dance Music with Liam Muir\Dashing White Farmer (Scotland\Orkney)
Pipeline \Pipes and Drums (Scotland)
The Piping Season (Scotland)
Piping Sounds (Scotland)
Roddy Hart (Scotland)
Saltfish Sessions (Scotland\Orkney)
Take the Floor - Gary Innes (Scotland)
Tiompan (Nan Gàidheal)
Travelling Folk (Scotland)

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:09 AM

I've always thought the main point of the 'limited' DG (diatonic) melodeon is the built in rhythm section it provides- great for dancing, not that I do much of that.
   'English' and Scottish music tend to use much more staccato rhythms (the Scotch snap etc) and the melodeon provides this in spades. The piano box is now the norm in Scotland- some folk seem able to have a technique to replace some of its lost rhythm capability, & it's done mainly by drums & bass. The DG melodeon is dominant in England of course but the semitone tuning favoured in Ireland suits the much more ornate & flowing nature of Irish dance music.
    Attempting to 'smooth out' the DG melodeon for playing reels by crossing rows is OK- I do it myself, but also reduces its innate rhythm. I grew up with Irish music & did try the BC Paolo for a while but not for me as a singer too.
    As for the bass buttons on two-row diatonic boxes, I watched fascinated as Tim Lyons played his BC box & tapped the totally unrelated bass buttons as well as the melody side. I asked him what he was doing with it &he said 'jaze I dunno, I look the other way'
   another rated Irish box player did similar & said 'ah but it's only percussion anyway'    nufsed

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Johnny J
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:26 AM

Freddy,

That is a good list list of programmes but spread over more than one radio station.
Some of these e.g.
The Orkney and Shetland programmes are only broadcast regionally on their own local BBC radio or Radio Scotland in that particular area.

Some of the programmes are on Nan Gàidheal which is available on FM and DAB but not AM in most areas.

Of course, it's easy to listen live or again on BBC Sounds these days but not everyone finds it that convenient. Casual listeners won't always bother and will just listen to whatever hapepns to be on at the time.

Having said all that, your point about Scotland being well served compared to other parts of The UK is valid. Also, there's nothing to stop the rest of The UK, Ireland, and beyond from checking out these programmes either and enjoying our Scottish music.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 10:10 AM

“Nufsed” - er, no!
I play BC accordion and DO put chords in as and when I can: not randomly punching or flapping at the basses, but chords which match the melody. So I can offer you the “three chord trick” for tunes in a number of keys - C, G, D and A majors. For minors, I just pull out the stop that takes the middle third out of the chord, which allows some left hand accompaniment in Am, Em, Dm and mixolydian mode in those keys too.
When I was first learning, I asked my tutor, “When can I start playing the basses and chords?”
“Oh”, he said, “That comes much later”.
“How much later?” sez I.
“About 5 years” sez he.
Somewhat despondent was I, but he was quite right. I worked at it,
and proved that it is very possible to play chords and basses on a B/C.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 12:30 PM

Yes it's possible to do it, I agree but why, when the Irish seem to manage very well with very limited bass use or none at all?
Also, as a singer, I've always found the existing DG box very satisfactory, while I found the BC arrangement almost impossible to sing with -
There aren't that many British DG players who sing WITH the box but I've never found even one who accompanies his/her own singing with a BC box in Ireland- it is not a natural combination, I think?
So it's what you need really & personal preference as usual?

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 01:55 PM

There are a few accordion players around who are also very fine singers, Conor Connolly springs to mind and the late John Lyons was another one. I would say their choice to not accompany themselves is not one driven by practicalities but an aesthetic one. Same goes for concertinsayers, pipers, fiddleplayers even. They could if they wanted to but they don't.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 04:04 PM

The record that most got me into Irish music was Jackie Daly's Music From Sliabh Luachra Vol 6. If you want to know what's doable with the button accordeon bass buttons, have a listen.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 06:17 PM

One of Jackie's standard stories is how Joe Burke complained to him 'Jackie, Jackie, my bass is not working, it is broken, what am I to do'. To which Jackie replied 'Well, Joe, you can use the other ones...'

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 15 Nov 24 - 07:01 PM

Well, I must be unnatural then, as I do sometimes sing and accompany myself on the B/C. As for aesthetic reasons, yes, the box is pretty loud and in a session it would be very easy to drown your singing out by playing too loudly. So I would tend to just play a few chords and let the voice supply the melody while singing the verses, and then bring the right hand in for any choruses or instrumental breaks. My favourite keys for singing, depending on the range and register of the song are D, G or A, all of which work fine with a B/C.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 10:07 AM

Talking of which, cam anyone explain to me why a lot of Irish concertina players choose a C/G when a G/D does the job without using the accidentsls?

Quite simply, this was because C/G was by far the most common for anglo concertinas. Older players played up and down the rows, and because it was mainly played in the home it didn't matter that they couldn't join in with other instruments. Then the modern cross-row style was developed to play in the fiddle keys. This forces the ornamentation to be played in a certain way. Whilst it might be easier to play the tunes on a G/D, critics say that the essence of the style is then lost. Despite the now wider availability of instruments in other keys, the Irish style is built around the C/G.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 16 Nov 24 - 10:25 AM

I haven't been playing concertina very long but I find playing across the rows easier than playing up and down them. You do lose some of the ability to harmonise but I think of the instrument as a melodic one and would leave that to the guitarists anyway.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 09:19 AM

Tattie- I'm sure you're not an unnatural' player but when I sing with the box I always find that remembering the words is enough to think about rather than the illogical (better word maybe?) and varying fingering of the melody side semitone tuned box- I prefer to keep life simple. If you can do it, you're a fine man, Charlie Brown....

Peter, I see no 'aesthetic' reason to exclude instrument players from accompanying themselves, although I know that generally that's the case in Ireland. I Had 20 years in Ireland, and it was the norm to be a musician (of traditional instruments) or a an unaccompanied singer but very seldom both together. I don't think that is as strict in Britain?
I was a rarity there & on visiting Sligo singers I amazed to be told no instrumental accompaniment was allowed! The founder, Frank Finn explained that twangy guitar players accompanying singers without permission had been a plague.
I accepted that, but months later, the rule was relaxed at Christmas & i started a song with my box, when you can guess what happened- out of tune & out of rhythm- I looked at the Fear an Ti and exchanged wry smiles!

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottijim bsh Sessions. Why?
From: GUEST,Jim bainbridge
Date: 17 Nov 24 - 09:20 AM

sorry that mas me

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 09:03 AM

Ha-ha, Jim: a Charlie Brown I'll never be - unless a Charlotte!
I agree that it's hard to play any instrument and sing at the same time when you're first learning an instrument - I've been through it with piano, guitar and box, but if you're lucky and keep at it, eventually the playing falls under the fingers. I know you are adept at doing both together, having seen you performing live on a number of occasions. (and you even stayed in our house once!)
As for that funny fingering, you get used to it, using the outer row of right hand from day 1, just as on the piano, you have to play white and black notes in most, if not all, keys: I don't even think about "crossing the rows" which seems to hold a great mystique for D/G players.

Subject: RE: Irish but Not Scottish Sessions. Why?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 18 Nov 24 - 02:35 PM

[highland bagpipes]

I would agree that they're not suited to pub performance, but there are other types of Scottish pipes which are more suitable - the smallpipes, for example. The highland pipes constitute their own ecosystem, I think, which is separate from the session scene - that's to say, they're not really a 'folk' instrument like the fiddle or smallpipes. They're more of a courtly and martial instrument.

Bagpipes of any sort are rare in sessions with other instruments. The problem is the setup time. You can't just jump into the middle of a medley - even if you keep a set of bellows strapped on (not all bellows pipers do) you have too much pumping-up time to maintain continuity. And when you've finished a tune, players of other instruments also don't usually make allowances for the fixed set of pitches that Border or smallpipes have and will take off into a tune that needs notes you only have on a whistle or fiddle.