Robert Flemming, inventor of the guitar?

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,AALDS
Date: 13 Dec 09 - 10:17 PM

Subject: RE: Rbt Fleming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 08 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM

Professor Bobsong, I apologize for being so harsh on the frailty of our American past. Please note that I understand and forgive Americas past and present injustices. I take solace in knowing that God had to get Africans to America, kicking and screaming; whether they wanted to or not, in order to give America some flavor or season to taste.

Maybe you are part of that lingering group of people who fill that they must avenge their crest of honor. I want to debate obvious historical facts in lieu of some dating discrepancies. However, after all meager words are spoken to discount Robert Fleming¡¦s great efforts to bring his music invention into American music culture, let us not forget that I am simply here to convey an obvious major fact: that during the 18th century, support for African American anything was about as vigilant as a snowflake in hell; and my friend those are terrible odds.

BEST REGARDS
AALDS



Bob wrote
AALDS needs to read what was quoted from "Lurker" above. As for blacks and invention-funding, some got it and some didn't, some inventions were trivial, some were great, some caught on, some didn't.

AALDS Reply
Okay, may I ask a question since I am the student and you the professor? Sir, how many white inventors in American history, during the 18th century received a loan or investment or joint partnership, from an African American to help them with their invention in Robert Fleming¡¦s times?



Bob wrote
and many were stolen by richer or less-honest people.

AALDS Reply
Now you are cooking! However let us get a brighter picture with this question. Sir, how many inventions were stolen by rich or less honest African American in Robert Fleming times?




Bob wrote
and the race of any of the people in those categories was not the issue.

AALDS Reply
Okay, this is some kind (sic) joke right?



Bob wrote
Did blacks get robbed of their ideas? Yes. Did ALL blacks get robbed of their ideas? Hell, no.

AALDS Reply
I am caught off guard to know that you would even cite a belief that African Americans were robbed of their concepts ending with your simple ¡§yes¡¨.
But, were they all robbed, I am assuming by the rich or less honest people in Robert Fleming¡¦s Time? You wrote a healthy ¡§hell no!¡¨ Well, did Mr. Fleming squeeze through Jim Crow¡¦s good grace, not being robbed of his ideas? Well I don¡¦t know but because Melrose City Hall and their libraries can¡¦t even find a pinch of his history it suggests something went terribly wrong.




Bob wrote
And AALDS has Fleming's "awesome awesome concept [ ] in competitions (sic) with his native invention of the Banjo. .   

AALDS Reply
Okay, agan to drive my only point here¡Khow many African American minstrel shows in the 18th century, that you know of, were exploiting a concept with painted white faces in principal, that could promote the sales of said stolen concepts from the rich or less honest individuals (white man).   And Bob thanks for the free class on the history and origin of the American Banjo. Don¡¦t forget the gory details¡K banjo sales went up over 50 percent because of those minstrel shows, which of course debased African America¡Xhorribly, even ¡§Martni¡¨ was probably affected.













Bob wrote
And, given the description of Fleming's invention, I doubt it was even an "awesome concept."

AALDS Reply
Awesome is indicative of profoundness, artistry, and uniqueness, all of which describe Mr. Fleming¡¦s courage and innovation during a era of institutionalized prejudice that threatened and killed people like Mr. Fleming. Evidently there is some profoundness with Mr. Fleming who himself never made the claim that he invented the first guitar but, yet we are in 2009 clearing up some accusations about him one hundred years later.




Bob wrote
The latter half of the 19th century was a time of great commercial innovation, and instruments combining concepts such as guitar fingering plus banjo heads (or banjo-anythings, really -- mandolin, ukes [later], guitar, or [who knows?] violini) were rife.

AALDS Reply
Was it an African American scholar who said beauty is in the eyes of the beholder (maybe not) ļ Well we can definitely say that the beholders in the music industry in the latter half of the 19th century were mainly the eyes of the rich and less honest people (white man). Again, Professor Bob, how many African American musical inventors, that you know of, were involved in the structuring of commercial innovations in those time? Also were they compensated properly?






Bob wrote
Heck, if Fleming had met the Marx Brothers (no, the makers of the ukelin, Hawaiian Tremeloa, Marxophone, etc., not the comedy act), he might even have gotten financing.

AALDS Reply
One thing we know for sure is that African musicians and luthiers were plentiful in those times. The ability to reach out a helpful hand was within the caress of any Guitar Company executive including the Marx Brothers.
\

Bob wrote
Was the late 19th Century hard on blacks? Yes, for sure

AALDS Reply
May, I ask the statistic severity of how hard it was?



Bob wrote
The end of Reconstruction brought on the Ku Klux Klan, Jim-Crow laws, "Coon" songs, and black flight to Northern cities were all part of that period.

AALDS Reply
Okay, I¡¦m convinced, you got me; maybe I was wrong in assuming that Robert Fleming Jr didn¡¦t have a commercial chance in succeedingƒº.




Bob wrote
But to assume that all black inventors had no chance is to ignore evidence to the contrary, as well as to ignore the fact that Fleming's "improvements" to the guitar were not so very "improving."

AALDS Reply
Bob, I really want to believe that there was a ghost of chance for Mr. Fleming concepts to succeed fairly. So I will not as you stated, ¡§ignore evidence to the contrary¡¨. Now please anybody give one piece of evidence where a African American music instrument concept was illuminated, supported, and profitable in Robert Fleming times, so that I can¡¦t ignore it :-)




Bob wrote
It is not necessary to find a conspiracy when simple facts of commercial life will suffice to explain Mr. Fleming's commercial failure.

AALDS Reply
Yeah, what about those millions of Ku Klux Klan, Jim-Crow supporters, and ¡§Coon" songs writers you mention who were rich and less honest business owners. Thank you but I¡¦ll find it necessary to gravitate toward conspiracy unless we can find one successful African American guitar inventor from Robert Flemin¡¦s times.



Bob wrote
And trust-funds for inventors weren't even there for white inventors.

AALDS Reply
Okay. trust fund is being used improperly here. Investment funds first. then after the business succeed if it succeed we leave a T-Fund to the next Christopher Martin to operate the business




Bob wrote
That development in commercial product financing didn't come till probably the 1960s (if then).

AALDS Reply
Right again Bob, I¡¦m sorry I meant the CIBACOS funds (Can I Borrow A Cup Of Sugar).   Bob, come on man even though some people built their business from their own personal wealth; I am sure there were inventors less fortunate who had to borrow from someone. Even the Bible mentions the practice of lending and borrowing before Christ.




Bob wrote
I don't know why I got carried away, but I did. So sue me.

AALDS Reply
Bob, Bob, Bob, you got carried away because you needed to defend your ancestral honor. Are you a musician? Have you ever thought of buying a guitar from Master luthier Woody Phifer. He is African American and one of the best builders on the planet. We are few but we need your support to help us succeed. We can go back and forth on these chat lines forever but why don¡¦t you try making a difference in the 21st century. Google ¡§WOODY PHIFER¡¨.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: Mick Woods
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 06:01 AM

What a load of bollocks! What has a persons colour got to do with an invention? It's quite clear that whatever this bloke patented. It wasn't much good. Even if it had been worth stealing by the evil whitey surely there would have been some record! As for publishing these stupid lists of trivial items invented by africans (egg beaters etc) I find it insulting to a whole section of our society.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Songbob
Date: 14 Dec 09 - 04:25 PM

AALDS has several points above that I can't answer directly at this time. For one thing, he (I assume) gets lots of his information mixed up (the 1800s was the 19th C., not the 18th, for example, and "the sales of banjos went up 50% because of the minstrel shows" -- they went up 100%, because before the minstrel shows, THERE WERE NO BANJO SALES*). For another, I am late leaving work, and also don't have the research materials for several of the other points raised.

AALDS seems to think that NO black inventor had his invention brought to the public unless a white man stole it. Bullshit. Some of the very people in that list that started this thread were inventors -- real inventors -- in the same period. All I'm saying is that the invention/improvements/whatever-you-call-it that Mr. Flemming made to the guitar did not catch on, and there is no reason to assume racism as the reason when functionality, salesworthiness, or even a crowded commercial market -- remember, there were LOTS of musical inventions at this time, few of which ever "made it" in the marketplace.

I am not denigrating Mr. Flemming, nor even his intention to improve the guitar's sound, but pointing out that it didn't work well enough to get him noticed.

Bob

* The banjo was essentially a hand-made instrument till brought to the public's attention by the minstrel bands, starting in 1842 (The Original Virginia Minstrels). Commercial banjos (made to sell to the general public, not made to order) didn't start appearing till around 1850 (Buckbee and Boucher are two names from that period). When the end of the Civil War brought soldiers home who had encountered the instrument in camps, the banjo began to pass into urban society, and banjo orchestras eventually spread (mandolin ensembles did too, as well as brass bands -- returning soldiers often brought their instruments with them). Before 1870, most banjos were fretless; by 1880, most were fretted, and various companies were vying to make improvements in them, for volume, tone, and even pitch (short-scale banjos for the soprano parts of arrangements were devised, and even bass banjos).

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 09 - 02:02 PM

Maybe if someone with the necessary skills could get round to building a Euphonica that would make it easier to assess Robert Flemming's contribution.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Steve of Falls Church
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 12:43 AM

Some good posts here. It is true Mr. Fleming did not invent the guitar only a version that he got a patent on. I just now heard on a TV channel that he invented THE guitar - no no no. Blacks and African Americans have plenty of real things they can take credit for without making mistakes or a false claim which I assume is only a simple error. Just in music alone the African Americans basically gave birth to an entire genre of spiritual music as well as the blues. The blues was and is still a huge influence on all kinds of music including the ever popular American Rock music and Rock and Roll. The electric pick up was invented about 1926 for the banjo which was king before the guitar surpassed it in national popularity. The pick up was improved and made smaller and found it place finally when put in a guitar. I forget the first pick up company - perhaps National. Anyway Rickenbacher became the early leader, but National and a few others were all putting out early electric guitars and lap steel guitars and were soon joined by the Vega company and many others - all in the 1930's.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: Bert
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 01:18 AM

"He read by the light of the fire place? Have you ever tried that?"

Yes, and I suspect most kids who grew up in the 1940s in Europe did as well. It might require more concentration than reading by electric light or candle light, but concentration is quite a good thing when reading.

Right you are McGrath, of course we did, not that big a deal.

But I still agree with everything else that Kendal said.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Feb 14 - 04:25 PM

There have been stringed instruments since prehistoric times. Generally a combination of strings under tension amplified by a tortoise shell or box of some kind. Ancient Greek lyres, Celtic lyre-harps, lutes of various sizes (actually, mandolins are descendants of small lutes), et al.

The first instrument to actually look like a guitar—and be called a guitar—is now known as a "Renaissance guitar." It was a bit larger than a baritone ukulele, and had four "courses" or doubled strings—although the string that was highest in pitch was single (called the "chanterelle"). Generally, it was tuned like the top four strings of a modern guitar, but about a fourth higher. It was generally looked down on by lute-players (the lute being the "serious" instrument of the era) as the instrument for non-musical young ladies to "strum on." Hence, Vermeer's famous painting of "The Guitar Player."

Alonzo Mudarra (1510–1580), was the first composer to write serious music for the instrument. Lute players wondered why he "wasted his time writing for such a frivolous instrument." However—

Here is a Renaissance guitar being played:   CLICKY.

About 1600, the guitar was enlarged a bit, inlay work and the bridge and rosette were fancied up a bit, and a fifth course was added to the guitar. It was tuned like the top five strings of a modern guitar. This was known as the Baroque guitar, here played by Seattle's own Elizabeth CD Brown, who graduated from the guitar program at the University of Washington, does about 50 concerts a year on various kinds of guitars, and teaches at Pacific Lutheran University. CLICKY.

It was sometime around 1750 that the guitar was modified again. Instead of five "courses," it had six single strings which were tuned like the modern guitar. This was the instrument that many famous virtuoso guitar players and composers such as Fernando Sor played and wrote music for. Ms. Brown with her Romantic guitar.

Antonio de Torres Jurado (Almería, Andalucía 13 June 1817 – 19 November 1892) was a Spanish guitarist and luthier, and "the most important Spanish guitar maker of the 19th century." Torres enlarged the guitar somewhat and developed the fan-bracing system now used by modern top-quality classical guitars.

Almost all acoustic guitars in use today are derivatives of his designs.

So I'm afraid that the claim that Robert F. Flemming Jr. "invented the guitar" in the 1880s doesn't quite wash.

=======

Interesting to note in the light of the deprecating remark that Renaissance lute players made when the guitar first appeared, when I first decided to enroll in the University of Washington School of Music in 1957, I had been warned by a jazz musician friend attending the school not to mention that my main interest was in folk music, because I wouldn't be taken seriously. So I said that my interest was in classical guitar. Their attitude was that the guitar, classic or otherwise, was in the same category as the kazoo or tissue paper and comb. No dice. This, despite the fact that Segovia had been to Seattle several times and a couple of months before I tried to register, John Williams had played a concert in Meany Hall, on the U. of W. campus.

Fortunately, Professor John Verrall intervened in my behalf, and I was admitted.

The University of Washington School of Music now has a guitar department, headed by Micharl Partington, and from which Elizabeth Brown graduated.

I like to think that I helped knock a few bricks out of the wall.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Serenity
Date: 29 Feb 16 - 10:38 AM

when did Robert J Flemmings Die

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,John from "Elsie`s Band"
Date: 03 Mar 16 - 12:22 PM

There is, at present, an excellent exhibition of Samuel Pepys and his times at the National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, SE London which I heartily recommend. On display is a ten stringed guitar,(five pairs), of Italian origin, a type of which Pepys owned and played. It is dated circa 1660. The form of the instrument is just as we know it today.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 04 Mar 16 - 05:52 AM

V interesting post, Don; for which thanks. But Vermeer's young lady is actually playing a 6-string.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Idisi
Date: 04 Mar 16 - 10:04 PM

MGM·Lion--He looked like a pretty Cool Cat--Obit: Don Firth (1931-2015) 

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 09:56 AM

Oh dear! Sorry all!

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST,Stim
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 12:29 PM

Since our beloved Don can no longer answer you, Michael, I will take up the mantle and respond to your point--the Renaissance guitar had four courses, which could be a combination of pairs and single strings-the higher strings would often be single since the melody tended to played there. This instrument seems to have two paired courses and two single courses.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 05 Mar 16 - 03:13 PM

Thank you, Stim. Looking at the biggest reproduction I could find online, I think you may be right at that. This painting has an interesting recent history, having been 'kidnapped' 42 years ago, held to ransom, and only recovered by good police work.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guitar_Player_%28Vermeer%29

It has long been a favourite of mine, as I lived near Kenwood House, where it 'lives', and loved it particularly, along with their two Boucher pastorals of peasants gathering cherries, in my many visits to the House until leaving London in my 30s when my late first wife won a Mature State Scholarship & we moved to Cambridge.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 06:16 PM

He patented both in u.s. and Canada the Euphonica guitar.

Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Oct 17 - 06:22 PM

Fleming patented in both us and Canada the Euphonica guitar, which was louder etc. than the tradictional guitar. He was a navyman for the union but very little else is known of him.