Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs

Subject: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 01:04 PM

It seems that with some festivals and folk clubs, "who you know" is more likely to get you booked than your ability as a performer and if you are a group how much does the name of your group influence the decision to book you.
                         I,ve heard that with some festivals,you are more likely to get booked if you organise a festival or club of your own and can return the favour with a booking at your event. I know of some fine singers / groups who struggle to get bookings whilst some festivals book the same acts every year. Is this a case of "Better the devil you know".
                               I would be interested in the thoughts of others who struggle to find gigs. I know performers get booked on reputation, but you have to perform regularly to a wider audience in order to build a reputation don,t you ?

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:18 AM

"Who you know" is certainly a good start to get you seen performing somewhere. Make some friends and try not to make any enemies - everyone seems to know everyone in the folk scene!

"Being well known" is definitely a priority. We sent a promo pack to a festival, the organisers mentioned to some friends of ours saying "it's very nice but we've never heard of them" and we still haven't been booked. No names...

With clubs, there's nothing to beat travelling and doing floor spots.
If we get a gig miles away from home and we can't add a booking for a consecutive night we often find a club where we haven't played, that meets the previous or next night and do a spot there, and that lands a booking for six months later.

Getting some festival exposure is also a good way to get club bookings, especially at clubs too far from home to apply the "floor spot" method. It used to be the other way round, but that was wheen a medium sized town had a folk club every night of the week and gigs were easy to get.

And my absolute favourite advice ever about all this from Jacey Bedford: "overnight success takes much longer than you think"

If you're looking for gigs, good luck, keep working at it and don't get put off by those who say no.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: fiddler
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:16 AM

So the folk scene is like the rest of the entertainments industry!

What a surprise!

Generally good bands will rise 'through the ranks' but being well connected can often speed this process up a little.

The less good will always be less good and the connections won't help much in the long run.

Work hard - be nice - and good luck!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Dave (Bridge Folk Club)
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:20 AM

Definitely showing up and doing a floor spot is a good way of getting known. I will never book anyone unless I have seen them perform live, in person, be it at a festival, another folk club , concert or at the Bridge. Many people are great singers/musicians and sound great on a CD, but lack performance skills and stage presence, you cannot judge this on a CD. With this attitude I am never let down or disappointed neither are the club regulars.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Tim theTwangler
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM

Yeah quality will out eventualy.
When the latest craze for sound-a-like, Radio two awarded,under the wing of the mafia clones has died down a little.
I agree is more who you know than what you know.
Now how do you do this funny,traditional ancient DADGAD tuning on yer guitar?

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:40 AM

"Many people are great singers/musicians and sound great on a CD, but lack performance skills and stage presence, you cannot judge this on a CD"
And some are better live than they are on CD...
All of which reminds me that some organisers actually prefer a demo CD to contain material from a live performance, and I must remember to take my flash-memory recorder with me to some gigs and see if we can get a good take.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: My guru always said
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:46 AM

May seem a bit OTT, but some 'acts' come across better on a DVD. Maybe this is a way forward for demos?

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:45 AM

I am a member of a group that does a small number of concerts. We won't book an act unless most (preferably all) of us have seen it in person. You don't have to know us or schmooze us but you do have to impress us in a live performance.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: dwditty
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 10:58 AM

It is a chicken and egg question for sure. Clubs/festivals want to book good performers - which requires lots of performances to become good. There are always venues that will let people play for free (I wish they would pay even a small amount $20, for example, just to offset karaoke). The bottom line, though, most places are only interested in one thing - how many people can you bring in who will spend $$.   

Two good recources for making a plan for yourself - yes, it works much better with a plan:

www.cdbaby.net - click the "Advice" tab.

www.soloperformer.com

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 01:59 PM

mmmmmmm interesting, we don't do a lot of "performing" as such but I find it is a hoot and would like to do more, however I do realise that to be booked for a festival one has to do the "Porridge" doing guest spots and building a reputation (or not) and a following big enough to put bums on seats. Martin is angling after a gig at the Cleethorpes festival (former member of Silver Birch, Grimsby Folk Club resident band) but ain't had an invite yet. Such is life!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM

Cleethorpes is in May. Thats a long time to wait. However the chip shops are very good in Cleethorpes. and its a nice front there. I used to gig the Kings Royal Hotel on the front in a previous life. Obviously you need a song about Cleethorpes to make yourself a strong contender.

Get your song on the local radio. Who knows perhaps it will chart and you will become megastars and they won't be able to afford you - provide you with, drugs, groupies, and other peripherals.

If they beg and plead, stand firm......just say no!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Fidjit
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 03:33 PM

Bit like prostitution. It's you doing the soliciting. You have to sell yourself. You start at the bottom end of town and work your way up to "Call Girl" status. Lots of disappointment on the way. Lots of fun too. We do a lot of free gigs to get noticed. Seldom works.
When it does it's a joy. Floor singing is the way to get your act together.

Dr Hook had a good song.
"On the way to the bottom", You meet a lot of people on the way up.
Lot of who you know though.

Good luck.

Now which way are we going? up or down?

Chas

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 04:02 PM

"It seems that with some festivals and folk clubs, "who you know" is more likely to get you booked than your ability as a performer and if you are a group how much does the name of your group influence the decision to book you."

Ya know, there's this crazy thing you've gotta do when you're programming festivals and gigs. It's called "selling tickets". And for the most part, when it comes to people actually buying tickets, they prefer to see people they've heard of. Go figure.

As much as I'd like to give a gig or a festival spot to every really good band I've seen, I can't. Because if I don't at least break even, I'd be out on my arse. For the most part, I try to strike a balance between well-known bands with an established fanbase and giving opportunities to new, local or less well known talent.

I should add that I've been trying to get warm-up spots for good local bands during my regular, non-festival season, but it's often not welcomed by the artist/agent (hard to tell sometimes where the resistance is coming from, though I have my suspicions).

If it's about "who you know", get out and get to know some more people.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: breezy
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:00 PM

suck and grease

be two-faced

but be a good performer



On the other side of the pond often artistes pay to perform in order to be seen

I'll book anyone to give em exposure, well almost.

Brakenrig ! where are you ?

This week at Windward, the real folk Club in St Albans, at the Comfort Hotel, we have Harvey Andrews, he has loads of sound advice

plus George Papavgeris and Chris Flegg

So its a winning combination already

sun 16th July

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM

Oh this is question I am asking the pros all the time. All they say is Perform for nothing, show up for show cases and be seen. Pepper shot cd's to folk clubs and fests. Spend money and get out there.

Has it done us any good? Not yet and we're bloody good. Time, energy, practice and big smiles to empty seats!

So BOOK US... SALLY AND THE SHOT DOGS.

Sal.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Tig
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

You've got my sympathies Sal. At least some of the festivals are starting to cotton on and do 'Hiring Fairs' to give some of the less well known acts a chance of being seen.

It's a vicious circle though. One of my very good friends spent years travelling round doing floor spots in the hope of being booked. The result - the club organisers didn't book him but 'hoped he would return and do us more songs another night'. He was a really excellent all round performer too.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,joanie_at_loughborough
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 05:27 PM

"Time, energy, practice and big smiles to empty seats!"

See, that's a very telling comment. My instinctive response as a programmer is,someone's obviously given you a gig: why are the seats empty?

I think that sometimes artists forget that the responsibility for selling a gig is as much theirs as the venue's. They think they've finished their job by getting the booking and turning up to play. But one way to make an impression on a programmer (and other influential people who may be present) is to have a decent-sized, appreciative audience. Get family and friends to come. Flyer other similar events. Fill those seats.

If gigs are that precious, make sure you get a second one.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:46 PM

Assuming that Lincolnshire is much like any other county/city/place ...if you want to get booked then you have, first of all, to be good enough to be booked, secondly be prepared to put yourself about a bit to 'singarounds' and acoustic evenings as well as festivals where there are singarounds. I guess if you aint good enough you don't get booked.
Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: BB
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 06:56 PM

With my organiser's hat on rather than my pro. performer hat, I don't think Guest Joanie's comment about the responsibility for getting the bums on seats is fair on the performers. Aside from sending to their mailing lists, there's not a lot a performer can do if the gig is miles away from their home area. As an organiser, I expect the performer to send me suitable publicity material, then I believe it is my responsibility to sell the performer - through other venues in the area, through my own mailing lists, through the local press, through posters, etc. I know the area and the people - I should be able to get the people in to listen to a performer that I believe is worth listening to. And if I don't believe the latter, why should my audience? Hopefully, they learn to trust my judgement, and it becomes less of an effort with future performers.

Barbara

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Susan of DT
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:03 PM

I started two permathreads that have not gotten noticed very much yet. They are aimed at the traveling performer to get extra gigs near where they are already touring. One for the performers to list their touring plans several months ahead http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=92267 and one for venues to list their location and preferred music type http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=92270
These will not help the neophytes get their first gigs, but can help the people who have been around a bit longer.
(The clicky maker did not make them clicky?)

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 07:10 PM

People have been known to die of exposure!
                                        —Dave van Ronk

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jul 06 - 08:10 PM

I think if you're a mature adult with reasonable powers of cerebration - evetually , you get the message. they aren't going to let you in the game. the crap mediocre ones are jealous of every scrap of talent, every shred of success, every shape that you can throw and they can't.

The sensible thing is to take the talents you have acquired as a performer in the folk clubs and do something else with them.

When you've had a hit record, made a little money, raced your last rat, made a couple of fortunes for the music industry crooks, but somehow managed to live a creative life....they will still be there resenting you, asking you to play for nothing, dealing you out of every game in town....that's the folkscene, get used to it, it won't change.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:20 AM

I agree entirely with BB's post 10 Jul 06 - 06:56 PM

Its up to the organiser to get the performer promoted in order to get bums on seats.

Some performers such as Vin Garbutt, will generally put extra bums on seats, but there are an aweful lot who won't, especially if they are not known in the area they are performing.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 02:56 AM

amusing short a*sed percussionist but oh so true, don't do it for the money, the adulation or the fame, do it for yourself cos one may end up despairing if you don't. It never ceases to amaze me that people like what we do, we are three blokes that sing in the pub and we really enjoy singing and socialising in one or others back kitchen with wine, beer, nibbles and a few songs, public performance has always come second and, indeed, hadn't even considered it til someone tried to book us for a "Fringe" event at cambridge two years ago! (we didn't go, thought it was a leg pull!) We do the occasional gig but we are under no illusion of future grandeur, we do it cos we like it and, if everyone does that, any success is a bonus (mind you, if the whole pub joins in with a chorus then that is what I call success!)

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:12 AM

"One of my very good friends spent years travelling round doing floor spots in the hope of being booked. The result - the club organisers didn't book him but 'hoped he would return and do us more songs another night'."
There are simply too many acts looking for too few gigs, and every organiser is striking a difficult balance between getting the audience in and giving newcomers a chance. Look for opportunities to play at other venues. Even contemplating the idea of putting on a concert in a local village hall focuses you sharply on the organiser's perennial problem - will anyone come? Publicity is a fascinating game I'm just beginning to learn to play. Advertise in the local folk magazines, send stuff to the local papers, build a web site, take leaflets to sessions - none of those work miracles but all make a small difference and one day the combined effort will break that "we've never heard of them" barrier.

And stallion: "don't do it for the money, the adulation or the fame, do it for yourself" - well yes, there's very few doing it for the money, and they're either working their asses off or permanently broke. We treat a tour or a festival as a sort of subsidised holiday. Playing local weddings and birthday parties as a ceilidh band is probably the only profitable bit of the business. We've shown the taxman a four-figure loss every year we've been doing accounts. Keep the day jobs, chaps and chapesses: I'm certainly hoping to keep mine until I hit retirement age!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Gwenzilla
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:30 AM

Heck, even just getting local gigs here is difficult for me, and I come out of a US folk band that was judged one of the top pagan bands in the country, have three studio CDs and a live CD under my belt, and played festivals, coffeehouses/folk clubs and gatherings for years in the United States. None of it seems to matter here, and I'm a settled person with a husband and a teenage son who doesn't have the freedom to travel around a lot, nor am I Young & Beautiful (tm). I was told not to travel around looking for floor spots-- I was told this would make me look like a "visiting pro" who was only in it for the money. But I can't be a regular at sixteen different folk clubs (I can barely manage two), and well, I'm sure you've all heard the whinging more times than I've said it myself, and that's saying something. Even working in the folk world hasn't helped: most people who come to the place I work see me as an administrator only and are neither interested in or receptive to the fact that I had a long musical career elsewhere before moving here. Frustrating? Yes. End of the world? No, but I sure do miss it. I do not have any delusions of becoming Rich And Famous from doing what I do; I'd just like some acknowledgment (by people other than polite friends) that I do it well.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:16 AM

Also take comfort in the fact that what will turn out to have been the folk music of this era won't necessarily be decided by these vacuous gits.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:54 AM

There is an attitude among some organisers(to be seen on this thread) that says, basically "I never book an act unless I've seen their live performance".
Well, that sounds sort of logical in theory, but how does this work out with a touring act from abroad, or even one from Britain that hasn't come down your way? Now, to take a simple example, I've never seen Christy Moore live. But you can bet your bottom dollar that if he rang up and said "Could you fit me in to your folk club one Tuesday in January" I'd book him like a shot. To run a venue prperly, I think you need some kind of antennae other than your own experience. That may be friends, reviewers you have built up a trust for over the years,just keeping an ear or an eye on the media. It may be very safe just booking people you've seen yourself. Fine, as lomng as safety is what youre aiming for. But for excitement, sometimes you need to take a risk. If a mate I trust rings me up and says "I've just seen the best singer I've ever heard in my life at the Littling Piddlings festival": well, I might just go with the mate's judgement, if I know they are consistently right.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:38 AM

"I never book an act unless I've seen their live performance"
Probbaly not literally true, more likely a convenient way to say no without causing offence. And I'm sure every club organiser has a horror story about booking someone on spec only to discover the performer was dreadful.

Gwenzilla, if you're from a US pagan band your music probably isn't what most UK folk clubs are expecting, but you might get somewhere with the Pagan community nationally and locally and get some work that way. Maybe you should advertise your services for music at handfastings and the like.

You were given bad advice about not doing floor spots. Even if the club doesn't book you somebody might be interested. If you don't play anywhere nobody will know what you can do!

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 06:57 AM

I was talking to a singer/performer/writer/storyteller at the Travelling Folk Song Ale (no-one gets paid to play there) and I gather that here too there are several different festival circuits, including at least two I had never thought of, namely (my words) pagan and alternative lifestyle festivals, mostly small, but some quite big and religio-centric (Bhuddism was mentioned).

How you get onto them (or even find them) I have no idea. But knowing they exist must be a start.

I would take a box of CDs for sale wherever you play - it makes the point for you that you are a professional. Also check out websites like Pigs Ear's.

Prostitute yourself and play some Irish stuff - Irish bands get work (often in very dingy pubs) and if they have a singer who can really sing they ought to be happy to have you sit in for a couple of numbers of hackneyed populist stuff that still stands out, like "She moves through the fair", etc (nick something, anything, off a Clannad album), and if you do an O'Carolan harp piece it will very effectively advertise you.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:06 AM

I do some agency work for a band who perform quite regularly. I work as thier agent, becuase i like them - as musicians and as people and saw that they needed some help in that area, and I had some related experience. Although they had been offered representation by 'mainline' agents, their preference was not to go down that avanue. They don't gig at folk clubs or pubs, but do work at theatres, art centres, private concert series, festivals and the like.

I have found that many art centre programmers will stick to using just a couple of agents - partly, I'm sure, out of being 'safe', 'easy' and, it has to be said, possibly a bit of laziness on their part. The artistic director of The Lowry, on Salford Quays admitted this to me. They get inundated with promo material for music across all sorts of styles and, quite possibly, have no personal interest or knowledge in fields beyond their own musical tastes. All entirely understandable, but not terribly helpful. But then, it isn't their job to be helpful to us - it's thier job to run their venue successfully, according to thier artistic policy.

Greg mentioned the need for them to have an 'antennae' beyond their own experience, and this is a very good point. It's a long slog, as an agent, making a personal contact, sending packs out, following up (usually several times, as people are never available when you ring the first time) I often find that those who are independant promoters are far more prepared to work with independent bands and have a more genuine and wider interest - because it is their hobby, not their job.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Gwenzilla
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 07:45 AM

Anahata, I actually do quite a lot of traditional folk music as well as the pagan material from Three Weird Sisters (my band, who also do a variety of styles), so much of my solo material is completely applicable to folk clubs. I mentioned my US band experience so y'all knew I am actually a fairly experienced gig musician with a lot of different kinds of venues in my background.

Most US pagan festivals and the like want "ritual" acts (people who do the same old chants to drumbeats) or rock and roll / heavy metal acts. There is not very much room for folky acts there; TWS just happened to end up in just the right niche. I find the same thing in looking around at pagan festivals to play in the UK: they seem to be geared toward louder acts, or maybe I'm just reading things wrong.

I could go more places, but it would have to be carefully scheduled, as I have a day job and a family who like to see me from time to time. I should be at Sidmouth (working for EFDSS) and the English Heritage Festival, so maybe something will happen there.

As for taking CDs around-- I did that for *months*. The only time anybody ever took one home was when I donated them to raffles, except for one guest spot the nice people at Folkmob gave me, when I sold six or seven, I think. It got to where taking CDs *and* a harp on public transit was just a wee bit too much trouble for the expected return (zero). I don't take CDs around anymore.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,KJ
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:03 AM

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,KJ
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:05 AM

Ooops finger slipped. Definately keep the day job, it enables you to eat & put petrol in the car when you're going around doing all the floor spots & freebies!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: stallion
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 08:19 AM

mmmmm WLD were you calling me a vacuous git, vacuous I might be but I am not a git!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Aging cripple selling Superman balloons
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 10:26 AM

I'm still waiting to be "discovered" after 40-odd (some very odd!) years on the UK folk scene.

Perhaps I was never hungry enough. Perhaps it was just that I always had a reasonably well-paid day job. Perhaps it was because I didn't go to festivals. Perhaps I just didn't have the talent.

Nonetheless, I will continue to run and attend singarounds and clubs, do my "spot" and enjoy the response of the audience and any applause that I may get. Why bother? Because I love the music and the songs and sharing them with others. Because I enjoy hearing other unsung singers and instrumentalists who feel much the same way as I do. Because I have made a number of good friends who are singers, some well-known (and therefore at least paid, if not well paid!), some not.

It is a good job that I can afford to be an amateur in the true meaning of the world.

But, as advised, I never gave up the day job!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 11:18 AM

"We won't book an act unless most (preferably all) of us have seen it in person."

Literally true.

Our wants are very limited and specific. All of us in the group regularly attend all the venues in which out type of music is performed.

I am being vague here for practical reasons. There is no point in soliciting us for a gig. We decide who we want at the beginning of the year and approach them.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 12:50 PM

No, no isult to anybody specific intended.

However the whole English folkscene has always struck me as a bit like the English 1890's literary scene.

The big hitters of that scene were people like RL Stevenson, Wilde, the great poems were stuff like the Highwayman by Noyes.

Just as Steveenson and Noyes wrote about Highwaymen and Pirates in an age of steam trains, electricity, movie photography and even early aeroplanes. So we are stuck with a folkscene that concentrates on pre 1914 values in music, language forms, etc.- even subject matter for songs.

Literature of course had TS Eliot come from Amrica and kick over the establishment and revitalise the language. AnD perhaps more importantly, we had literary critics like Leavis, IA Richards, Wilson Knight who knew that the lights had changed.

Its never really happened in England to the folk music scene. Well we got some of the artists, but there was no widespread recognition that a folk culture is the language of the streets of today - certainly it didn't permeate to kind of people who get their perceptions of folk music published.

So much easier to reiterate the latest record company blurb about world music - than go down to your local folk club and see and hear for yourself what's going on.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM

Thanks for all your valuable advice. Yes,bums on seats are important to cover costs and maintain a reputation for a club / Festival but we have travelled far and wide and performed at festivals for petrol money / expenses and have been offered bookings for the same terms !! we quite often travel and perform for no fee especially to assist an ailing club with a fund raiser or just to keep the club going.
       We,ll keep on singing because we enjoy it and love the songs. I really enjoy practicing because it,s another opportunity to have a sing and after all these years it still gives me a buzz. I also feel that the people i have met going around the festivals and clubs are genuinely lovely people. Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM

Al, I think the parallel you draw with the 1890's literary scene misses out on what I think are the two most important factors affecting music today (for which there was no parallel in the 1890s): The media explosion of the last 60 years and the commercialism of music. The first brought in huge numbers of listeners, the second homed quickly into what makes the biggest bucks and started the rot that ended up with the pap that is fed to the masses today.

As for the statement "the folk culture is the language of the streets today", wish that it were true! But it isn't - not in Peckham or Brixton, or Southend or St Albans on a Saturday night. Let's face it, the masses don't know it is "their language", they wouldn't recognise it from Esperanto. So we chip away at the mountain with our spoons in hope.

As for the main topic: I am at both ends of the table, seeking bookings for myself and getting bookings for others at the clubs where I am involved (well, mainly one of them). I have never "traded bookings" as I know some have, and I never will. And I know that there is no substitute for having first-hand knowledge of the artists you are booking (or the club where you seek a booking).

A CD, and even a DVD, is not enough, when choosing acts to put in front of our club audiences. I want to know how the artist's patter goes, how they engage the audience, how good they are live, how they structure a set. And that is mainly because I feel a responsibility towards the club members, both to satisfy their wishes and to introduce to them new acts that I think they will like. We had great successes recently with Mary Humphries and Anahata, with Isambarde and Anthony John Clarke, all of whom I had seen several times before and knew them well - and I knew that their act (not just their material) would go down well at the club.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,joaniecrumpet
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:49 PM

"As an organiser, I expect the performer to send me suitable publicity material, then I believe it is my responsibility to sell the performer - through other venues in the area, through my own mailing lists, through the local press, through posters, etc. I know the area and the people - I should be able to get the people in to listen to a performer that I believe is worth listening to. And if I don't believe the latter, why should my audience?"

Well, this is obviously true once performers are working at a certain level, but when people are just starting out I think it helps enormously if they are willing to take on some (not all, but certainly a proportion) of the responsibility for getting an audience.

Many years ago I was the "girl singer" for an Irish band. The lead singer was brilliant at developing the fanbase we had (before e-lists and the like) and we had a core of dedicated family, friends and people who just liked our stuff who would turn up at most of our gigs and make a lot of noise and buy a lot of drinks. It was a momentum which eventually became self-perpetuating. Now, maybe the responsibility for providing that audience shouldn't fall on the performer. But if I were a young band starting out now, I'd want to use every tool in my power to create a buzz and to give a great impression. And those tools are much more accessible these days.

In other words, you can choose to play the game and market yourself, or not. But don't be surprised if the people who play the game and work to fill those seats are the ones who are getting the gigs.

PS: I've never paid anyone less than £200 for a gig.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Jul 06 - 09:53 PM

Er - WLD, "folk" music will always be retrospective because of the definition of "folk" music.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:47 AM

Can I make a few points about publicity etc as a Folk Club Promoter and a listener, not a performer.

If a performer is not known in the area they are going to, there is a limited amount of publicity they can do to help the club organiser. Putting the gig on their Website is very important, and if they have friends in that area, letting them know.

Now as an organiser, think about the following, and it is very applicable in my club. Why do the performers send me a great big glossy poster with a picture on it and not much more. This must have been pretty expensive to produce. If I put that poster up, is it really going to bring people in. The picture is more likely to scare people off :-) For people who don't know the performer, the poster is not going to bring them in. This may be different with a band with the instruments on the picture, as people may look at the picture and think "Uhhhmmmm thats interesting, I think I will go and see them".
If I put a poster of Vin Garbutt up it wouldn't do a lot in my area as most people wouldn't know who the hell is Vin Garbutt.

That is why I prefer to do my own publicity, that way I can look at the performer, and try and put forward their best qualities. Sometimes, some of the splurge some performers ask you to promote, can look childish and silly, especially if you have never seen them before. e.g. Learnt to play guitar by playing to my goat, who loved it. :-)

From a festival point of view, I am amazed at the saturation of vey expensive fliers that are sent all over the place. Be honest, how many of those finish up in the bin? If somebody was able to work out the cost of all flyers for all festivals in a given year, I would imagine the cost would be horrendous, and the effect on the world resources to produce these flyers is probably criminal.

I will get me coat :-)

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:34 AM

In my view the disociation of sensibility, that Eliot talked aboutin poetry - that disociation of the way we live, and the way we sing is the fault line that runs a mile wide through the folk revival.

And while the artists don't face up to it, it will repel the public, the audiences will be miniscule relatively speaking - and as an artistic movement in history and in fact, we will be small potatoes.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 03:59 AM

Les:
"Why do the performers send me a great big glossy poster with a picture on it and not much more"

Do you discuss this with the performer? I always ask organisers what they want. Some are very specific: "4 A3 posters, 2 A4 posters, two photos and a bio" - others don't seem to care much or (like you) do their own. Some are quite happy to raid the website; we've got some good pics for this purpose.

But the traditional answer to your question is: in the old days you got one good photo and paid a printer to make hundreds of copies of one poster and that's all you could afford.

Now I make customised posters with venue details, date and time printed on them, and A5 flyers are useful to some organisers, especially if they have the common sense to distribute them at club nights before the one that guest is booked for...

"From a festival point of view, I am amazed at the saturation of very expensive fliers that are sent all over the place. Be honest, how many of those finish up in the bin?"

It gets your name known, subliminally and cumulatively. It contributes to making the difference between "who?" and "oh, yes, I've heard of them"...

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,joaniecrumpet
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:36 AM

'It gets your name known, subliminally and cumulatively. It contributes to making the difference between "who?" and "oh, yes, I've heard of them"...'

Exactly. And the quality of the print (that doesn't have to mean expensive, BTW)sends a subliminal message about the quality of the event.

Not to disappear too far up my own bumhole, but there's a fundamental marketing theory about how many times someone needs to see an advert or be exposed to a product before they make a purchasing decision. Now, this figure varies depending whether the product is completely new to the purchaser or whether they have some familiarity with it, but generally speaking, people need to be exposed to it between three and seven times before they'll make a decision about whether to buy it. The cost of the product usually is a factor as well; ie, a festival ticket will take more repeat exposure than a gig ticket. This means that the flyers, the posters, the exit-leafleting, the repeat adverts in magazines, the artist reviews in the press, the websites and even the word-of-mouth are all contributing to that eventual purchasing decision. I'm sure this post will inspire backlash from some of the grass-roots promoters, but folk is part of a wider industry that works within certain parameters, and purchasing is based on product and brand awareness. As I said earlier, you can take this stuff on board or ignore it at your peril.

'This may be different with a band with the instruments on the picture, as people may look at the picture and think "Uhhhmmmm thats interesting, I think I will go and see them". If I put a poster of Vin Garbutt up it wouldn't do a lot in my area as most people wouldn't know who the hell is Vin Garbutt.'

This is presents a slightly different dilemma, and it's about who we're trying to attract to folk gigs. Naturally, a poster of Vin Garbutt in your local train station will attract minimum takeup, but a poster of Vin Garbutt in your local pub that hosts a folk club will achieve a totally different response. Similarly, I don't send folk print out to my audience for contemporary theatre; I send it out to my folk attenders. These truths are self-evident. But can we continue to rely on those same folkies coming to events year on year? How do we convince more of the people in the train station (particulalry some of the younger ones) that they ought to be coming along to folk events? Or should we be worried about this at all, as folk has always had a self-selecting audience, and those dwindling folk club audiences (in some places) will eventually be replaced by the new guard?

I think I'm starting another thread here...

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 04:49 AM

Hi Anahata
I do say No to performers. There is little point them wasting there money. I know my market and the places to advertise etc. Thats the wonderful thing about the Internet, and if you have good IT skills, its amazing what you can do. One of the best things I did, was to design my own website. In seconds I can update it, and I can create pages and links for all the performers.
I always hand out a diary at each meeting, which is duly updated. I find it one of the most effective ways of getting the info across.
On top of that, it goes in the local rags, as well as being mentioned on Folkwaves and Radio Lincolnshire folk program.
I do posters but not many.
The rest is word of mouth.

>>It gets your name known, subliminally and cumulatively. It contributes to making the difference between "who?" and "oh, yes, I've heard of them"...<<

Yes it is good from that point of view, but never the less there is still a lot of money being wastefully spent out there, and if you think of the complaints about there not being enough money in the folk world.

When you come to MRFC in October, the only thing I would expect from you and Mary, is that it is on your website and that your aquaintaces up here know about it :-) The rest is up to me. I see little point in me putting a lot of effort into running the club and then not promoting it. However, the majority of publicity is paperless.

Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:07 AM

Joanniecrumpet - you did LOL :-)

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:50 AM

I nearly posted this to the other thread, but it belongs here:
Afterthought: mailing lists are a good marketing tool.
I say this with some reticence because we haven't been very good about building one up ourselves, but I have noticed that some very successful performers have huge mailing lists, always put out a sign-on form wherever they play, and get names on it by the end of the evening.

If a club organiser knows you have a good mailing list, it will encourage them to book you on the basis that you'll bring an audience with you.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:08 AM

Cloudstreet pass their list round the audience, something I always forget to do. Also we stupidly didn't make ours (which is email only) area-specific from the start, so we don't know where people live. We should have had a zone system, so we could target the right people for any gig - or at least reach only people in the correct general area.

I had a little chuckle at the point above about organisers not putting out the fliers at the previous event. On a few occasions we've arrived to find even our posters neatly laid out on a table, presumably for people to take home and put on their bedroom walls! (And often nothing in the main pub to say there's a club on tonight).

We don't send fliers or posters now unless asked. Both (as well as blurb and photos) can be downloaded from our website, so organisers can design their publicity to suit their event.

We used to send a CD to the local radio station too, but it didn't seem to make any difference to the walk-up, so we only do that if asked, too.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:47 AM

Agree there Anahata. However that good mailing list needs to cover the area that the performer is appearing.

No good a performer recognised in Devon sending e-mails to all the people down there. If they don't have anybody near my club, it would be a waste of time.
This comes back to the point of how well is the performer known in the territory they are visiting?

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:18 AM

My cunning plan is to make regional mailing lists.
Mine will be by county, but it could be some other system.
I'd send a promotional message to the list for the county where the gig is and typically to those adjacent.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:24 AM

Exactly - the trouble is we already have about 50 thousand (I wish), and it's too late to ask where they are!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:41 AM

Spammer Bliss LOL

Thats a good way Anahata, and I am sure it will pay dividends in the future.

But seriously guys, you should be able in general to rely on the club to do the promotion especially if they are paying you a fee. Surely they want to recover as much money back as possible and provide a reasonable number of people to see you. I can never understand people who don't. Unless of course they just want to share you all to themselves. :-)

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 07:59 AM

I agree it must be up to the clubs to do the main promotion, it's their bank balance after all. But we do have quite a few 'fans' who've met us at festivals, theatres or village halls, or came to us via internet CD sales for example, who are not habitual club visitors, and probably don't read the local folk mags either. They've signed up precisely so they'll know when we're next in the area, but we don't use the list for that purpose because we really would be spamming!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 09:22 AM

Tom - why don't you email everyone on yor list, explain that you are changing the way you hold your database and ask them to let you know where they are - it worked for the band I work for. Quite a bit of work at my end but worth it now.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: treewind
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 12:07 PM

"They've signed up precisely so they'll know when we're next in the area, but we don't use the list for that purpose because we really would be spamming"

Er..., so how do you use the list?

Anahata

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 01:15 PM

CD launches, occasional news, major tours when we're going everywhere anyway, and emergency notices when a gig is cancelled at the last minute. We should use it more, though, and I have thought of guest's suggestion before, but it's a lot of work to field all the emails and add the data to the database, and I'm both busy and lazy - plus I suspect a lot of people wouldn't actually answer. Many seem to see email as in 'entry only' medium!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: DebC
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 05:45 PM

Hi Tom Bliss, Anahata and all,

I have separate mailing lists for the US and UK. The UK one is email-only, the US one is both snail-mail and email. When I am going to be in a region of the US, I send out postcards targeting that specific region and listing all the gigs in that region. I use Filemaker Pro and I can restrict the database to a range of postal codes.

My email lists are opt-in. This means that I send the person an email inviting them to join and click on a link. If they do not want to join, the invite email can just be ignored. Anyone on my lists can be unsubscribed anytime. So the only folks on my lists are people who want to be there.

Anyone in the UK who would like to be on my UK list does need to send me an email as then form on my website is only for the US list.

One thing that was interesting: in the UK, I have put mailing lists out and no one signed them. Is that usual?

Debra Cowan

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 12 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Hi Debra

I find people only sign if i make a big point of it during the gig. I find it hard enough to remember to plug the CDs, radiobritfolk, the next gig etc and often I forget to tell people about the list. Some gigs no-one signs. Possibly people know they can see where you are playing on your website so don't feel a need to go on the list. We get about 800 hits a week, so maybe that is what people prefer.

Tom

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: Sooz
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 02:46 AM

I haven't bothered to sign up on mailing lists for ages. I keep up with the doings of artists I like through their websites and with what is going on in a 40 mile radius from our local publication "Folktalk" on paper or on line and our local radio station.
For our local events I only book artists I have seen live and who I think will go down well with our audience. I've broken this rule only three times to book artists on the strength of an unsolicited CD sent through the post. Two of these were very good moves and the third wasn't. I always listen to CDs and pass them around our committee but out of hundreds only three made it pass the "see live first" barrier!
I always try to get our booked artists featured on local radio station and encourage them to send a CD. It may not affect the turnout on the night but it does raise the awareness of a wider audience and have more effect further down the line.
As to getting bookings for ourselves, we try to visit as many clubs and festivals as possible. This does lead to bookings, but we have also fallen into the trap of visiting the ones who seem to like us quite often so they don't need to book us!

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,maryrrf
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:25 PM

I was extremely fortunate, when I decided to try my luck with a 6 week tour in Scotland in 2006, to manage to get 11 gigs. I accomplished this by a combination of phoning and e-mailing, and sending out promo packages. None of them had ever heard me live (because I'd never performed in Scotland before). Every organizer I talked to was very nice and helpful and although it did take a lot of persistence I thought 11 bookings wasn't too bad for the first try.   

In Richmond, Virginia I help run a small concert series that's been going for about a year - well it stopped for a while because we lost our venue but we think we've got that sorted out so we can get back up and running. So this has given me the experience of being the booker, whereas for many years I've been the one looking for gigs. I do book acts that I haven't seen live on the basis of their websites, their soundclips or CDs, word of mouth, and also judging by other places that have booked them. Our focus is strictly traditional, so that narrows the field quite a bit.   So far we haven't had one act disappoint us. There were a couple of times where we didn't manage to bring in much of an audience, but there doesn't seem to be much rhyme or reason to that either. We've had complete unknowns bring in a fairly respectable crowd, and some people who are quite good and known locally who didn't manage to attract many people at all. I think a lot depends on what else is going on at the time in the area. We do most the promotion, but we are delighted if the artist has an e-mail list and gets the word out.

I will mention one thing that is a real turn off - and that is a performer who doesn't have at least a basic website. We do a lot of our promotion by e-mail,and it really helps if we can direct people to a website that has a few pictures and soundclips. I think nowadays a website is an absolutely necessary tool for an artists who wants to get booked. That said, there have been one or two people that I liked so much I whipped up a basic website for them - so I guess for me talent and a strong committment to traditional music, making them a good fit for our series, is the important thing.   

As for myself, I've pretty much decided that chasing after bookings was starting to make music too much like work, and prefer to just sing and play for myself at home, or on the occasions when I can make it to a get together with like minded folks.

It has been interesting, however, to get a feel for both sides of the gigging experience.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 06 - 09:53 PM

I admit to skimming through some of the posts here but readily agree with what a few have to say. We have hade quite a few artists which have no known "name" and heard only by promo CD. Despite the lack of awareness, we have built an audience, and continue to build an `audience through sheer determination and persistence, booking good acts, even though quite unknown, and relying on quality performers. Sometimes those who lack quality are disappointed at not being booked. If bands want to be booked then do your stuff, do a job, please the bookers who will then look after you and pay a reasonable fee. Fair do's

BTW ; Have you heard The Crooked Jades or The Stairwell Sisters?"

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:36 PM

Just a little update: We (Shot Dogs) [myspace.com/shotdogs] had great fun doing our showcase at Llantrisant Folk Club in Pontyclun, S. Wales on 12th July. On the strength of it Andy Jackson from Miskin has said we are to perform at his festival at Easter next year. The reception was wonderfully welcoming and I've never laughed so much. Pat Spoons is such a clever hostess! I highly recommend this club if you're in the area.

Sal

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 06:53 PM

Tom, my mailing list is filed on cards by postcode. When I'm doing a gig I check the postcodes of surrounding towns,etc take them out of the boxes and then send an E mail to those same people on my mailing list in the computer which is arranged by name. Easy. Other way is to send out a three monthly E mail of gigs to all on your list using the scattergun technique.

Subject: RE: Getting gigs at Festivals / Clubs
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 10:12 PM

Universal since "Homer sang the Illiad" it has always been...

"who you know"

Summer 2006 the best season ever - (with particular thank-you's to the UK and European restrictions) knowledge based exploitation, because of Max and the Mudcat and its freqent contributors.

My Gawd How The Money Rolls In!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Bail me out of jail in INDIA.