BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?

Subject: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:02 AM

While this is probably old news for Americans, it's certainly one the strangest stories I've come across in quite a while -
Tucumseh's Curse

"The term Tecumseh's curse or zero year curse is sometimes used to describe a chain of events that began with the death of United States President William Henry Harrison from pneumonia. Commonly attributed to Indian chief Tecumseh (and sometimes to his brother Tenskwatawa, aka The Prophet, who was defeated in the Battle of Tippecanoe by Harrison), the "curse" is said to have proclaimed the death of all presidents elected every 20 years.

Victims of the "curse"

Indeed, all American presidents elected in a year divisible by 20 between 1840 and 1960 died in office:

1840 - William Henry Harrison, died of pneumonia in 1841
1860 - Abraham Lincoln, assassinated in 1865
1880 - James Garfield, assassinated in 1881
1900 - William McKinley, assassinated in 1901
1920 - Warren G. Harding, died of heart attack in 1923.
1940 - Franklin D. Roosevelt, died of cerebral hemorrhage in 1945
1960 - John F. Kennedy, assassinated in 1963."

Ronald Reagan, elected in 1980, apparently missed the "curse" by an inch - the distance an assassin's bullet missed his heart. And, of course, the article ends with speculation about the fate of the current President, elected (?) in 2000.

Well! Here I was all ready to order one of these this morning, (a "Days Left in Office" countdown keychain :~) but now I think I'll save my pennies and leave it all up to Tucumseh instead! Unless ... unless ... the curse might not cover rigged elections ...

Subject: RE: BS: Tecumseh vs Bush?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:20 AM

Not that nonsense again...

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:33 AM

If vengence boy is called to heaven, we will not be losing a great mind but rather we will be gaining a holy martyr.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:51 AM

gee Donuel, thanks for the foresight    :-/

Maybe Tucumseh knew that 200 years ago too -
Tucumeth to Harrison, Aug 11 1810

How can we have confidence in the white people? When Jesus Christ came upon the earth, you killed him, the son of your own God, you nailed him up!! You thought he was dead, but you were mistaken. And only after you thought you killed him did you worship him, and start killing those who would not worship him. What kind of people is this for us to trust?

Now, Brother, everything I have said to you is the truth, as Washemoneto [Great Spirit] has inspired me to speak only truth to you. I have declared myself freely to you about my intentions. And I want to know your intentions. I want to know what you are going to do about taking our land. I want to hear you say that you understand now, and you will wipe out that pretended treaty, so that the tribes can be at peace with each other, as you pretend you want them to be. Tell me, Brother. I want to know.

Were it not for the word "Brother" and the spirit behind it, I could as easily imagine that last paragraph spoken by an Iraqi or Palestinian leader today, as by the late great Shawnee.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 03:56 PM

That brings up something that I've postulated a time or two: If Gore should die while Bush is in office, will the Republicans concede that it was not Bush who won the elections?

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 04:25 PM

Otherwise it could reasonably be argued that the 2000 election was one in which no president was actually elected, and that should count as the equivalent of an elected one dying in office.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 05:04 PM

"If Gore should die..." nobody would notice

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 05:36 PM

Tecumseh didn't believe in the the torture of captives. But when Jacob Greathouse and his wife wete taken captive in 1791, instead of answering the question "What shall we do with them?", it is said that he turned and walked away without answering. What followed was decidedly unpleasant for Mr. and Mrs. Greathouse, but retribution for what they had done to Logan and his family.

Logan would have had more reason to utter a curse than Tecumseh, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:10 PM

while not usually superstitious, I have decided it's time to become a believer in.. Tucumseh vs Bush! almost as good as the Bush doll in the freezer!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:12 PM

"Tucumseh vs Bush?"

Someone makin' book?

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:17 PM

In April last year, in Colac in south-west Victoria, a group of Aboriginal people performed a ceremony known as pointing the bone at our Prime Minister, John Howard. To point the bone at someone is strong enough to cause death.

Still waiting on that one..

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:20 PM

I am NOT going to say what's on my mind. Nope, not a word.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:20 PM

No, no, no . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:24 PM

Ya couldn't get it outta me even with plyers.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:28 PM

maybe some plyers would do you a little good, B.

heh heh heh..

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:34 PM

Don't Crush That Dwarf, Hand Me the Pliers

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:35 PM

here, pdq, take these, I'll hold him down...

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:37 PM

Be still my beating heart.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:38 PM

Sure thing, Freda...just tell me which one is the dwarf.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: freda underhill
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:38 PM

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:40 PM

Vertically challenged, you heartless hind!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:43 PM

Plyers sounds like the got something to do with tyres.

Are those stock 4-plyers or did you upgrade to 6-ply?

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: GUEST,paddymac, the cookieless
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:44 PM

is it pliers, or plyers, as of strong drink or other vices?

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:45 PM

NOT EVEN THESE!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

Vices do kinda the same thing as pliers 'cept they're bigger and bolt to your workbench. Always glad to help.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:48 PM

OR THIS!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:54 PM

Available on e-Bay.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 10:57 PM

Well, you ain't agonna git it outa me, either. I shall be firm, I shall not be moved. I am a rock, I am an island. I follow the lead of the late Bruce Murdoch, who once said, "If chosen I will not run, if elected I will not serve, so stop beating your gums and git outa here."

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:13 PM

never underestimate the Power of the Pointed Bone

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:20 PM

Yep, the late pugilist Moose Bedrock went four rounds with Tecumseh.

Six rounds with Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 21 Aug 05 - 11:22 PM

Ooops! That was six rounds with Anheuser Busch!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:54 AM

Bush doesn't fall under the curse, IMO. He has to have been elected in 2000. He wasn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Peace
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 12:58 AM

Or does being elected enter into the equation?

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:26 AM

what we need is a pragmatic curse, a bit like a virus, something that can attach itself to the right man at the right time. Is a cross between a virus and a curse a verse?

I, mother of the dead,
endorse you, George Brain-dead
as the bearer of my curse
through prose and verse
so that through endless time
you will be destroyed in rhyme


hmm . does a verse have to be good to work as a virus-curse? better leave it to Tucumseh!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 07:17 AM

Opps...

I thought this was goiong to be about Bush not being able to get his log splitter engine to start back at the ranch seein' as a few have Tecumsah engines???

But this is about a "curse", you say???

Well, maybe the 100,000 Iraqia woman and ckids that Bush has offered up in sacrifice will keep the curse at bay fir him... But maybe not... In that case, don't let the door hit ya on the way out, Prezzy...

(But horrors, Bobert. Do you know how to spell Dick Cheney???)

Nevermind...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 09:54 AM

Y'know, I'd take that story about Logan and Mr and Mrs Greathouse with a big grain of salt, Rapaire. There are no less than 45 conflicting accounts of Tecumseh's death, let alone his life! They can't even get the date straight, although I think the truth is he died right here in Ontario, in 1813, near Chatham, in the "Battle of the Thames".

A few say his body was mutilated and skinned, which might be enough motive to utter a curse? But it seems more likely it was his brother, "The Prophet", who "cursed" the whites before he died at the Battle of Tippecanoe - even though even this account appears to have their names confused.

The Tecumseh curse story is retold by Donna Sands as follows: "After the historical battle of Tippecanoe in 1811, legend has it that the Shawnee Indian Chief, Tecumseh, sent General William Henry Harrison, via released prisoners, a message... a prophecy that history justifiably labelled, 'Tecumseh's Curse':

"'Harrison will not win this year to be the Great Chief. But he may win next year. If he does... He will not finish his term. He will die in his office.' 'No president has ever died in office,' declared a visitor. 'But Harrison will die I tell you. And when he dies you will remember my brother Tecumseh's death. You think that I have lost my powers. I who caused the sun to darken and Red Men to give up firewater. But I tell you Harrison will die. And after him every Great Chief chosen every 20 years thereafter will die. And when each one dies, let everyone remember the death of our people.'"


Well, there it is B - " .. and after him every Great Chief CHOSEN every 20 yrs thereafter will die". Maybe it doesn't matter how the 'Chief' was chosen - by the electorate or by machine.

I think freda's "curse" is alot more artistic though! Only problem is, freda, the curse is said to take effect only when Saturn conjuncts Jupiter, a planetary alignment that occurs every 20 years. So hold that thought .... for about 15 years ..... ;~)

And it looks like the Indians had a penchant for 'holy martyrs too' ...

Shawnee tradition states 'No white man knows, or ever will know, where we took the body of our beloved Tecumseh and buried him. Tecumseh will come again!'

"Morality is a fixed law, but each of us must be his own judge" - Pucksinwah, (Shawnee Chief, 1774)

Click here for alternative explanations of the 20-year 'Presidential death pattern' - all semi-convincing, except for the ballyhoo over the conjunction of Jupiter of Saturn. Some dispute this because a couple of the 'zero year' Presidents met their Maker a few months before or after the conjunction - BUT - anyone who's studied a bit of astrology knows that Jupiter and Saturn move so slowly that they come 'within orb of influence' (5 degrees) of one another many months before, and after, the conjunction is exact.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 10:10 AM

PS It's really bugging me that I spelled his name wrong not once but at least 4 times above AAARRRGGGHHH - and even in the thread title - AAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!! Sorry - whatever was possessing me yesterday, I dunno. Hey, maybe my fingers were "cursed" - I DO know how to spell it! Everyone around here pronounces it "Too-cum-seth" though (there's a township and two schools named after him in my neck of the woods) so it's confusing ....

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:30 PM

Daylia, while we may not agree on very much, you are totally correct regarding Tecumsehs' location when he died. His Indian federation had joined with the British to fight the Americans. During the battle the British ran from the battleground and allowed the Americans to drive the Indians away. Tecumseh was shot in the head during the retreat. I did some ancestor research back in Ohio where Tecumseh was born and every Ohio historian reflects this story.

(As far as "Tecumseh vs Bush", Tecumseh was a fearless and brillant leader and would have been on the side of GWB.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 01:41 PM

Guest 22 Aug 05 - 01:30 PM wrote "(As far as "Tecumseh vs Bush", Tecumseh was a fearless and brillant leader and would have been on the side of GWB.)"

Does Guest mean to imply that George W. Bush is a fearless and brillant leader??!!!

That would be funny if it weren't for the fact that so many people in the USA, in Iraq, and elsewhere in the world have sufferred, and are now suffering, and have yet to suffer because of GWB "leadership" or-perhaps I should say- the leadership of those who lead GWB.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 05 - 03:08 PM

Azizi - lighten up for crying out loud, life is too short to have so much one sided negativity. That is causing you to read things that are not implied.

Daylia - The history portion was right on as per your previous statement.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Kaleea
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:43 AM

I've heard the stories of Tecumseh since I was a little kid. I believe that the closest you can come to the truth is to listen to what the Shawnee people have to say about it.


Um, where might one obtain one of those aforementioned
    pointing bones? I've been thinking of visiting a feller in Texas.

            (just kidding! With the price of gasoline, I couldn't
                  afford the trip.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 09:39 AM

Daylia, Tecumseh was a briliant and courageous man. He did NOT approve of torture -- which was actually a cultural imperative a many of the Eastern nations vis-a-vis captive warriors.

Nor is the story of Logan and what happened at Yellow River in Ohio is doubt. Logan blamed Michael Cresap for it, but investigation showed he was wrong, that Greathouse and a band of drunken cronies were responible. The massacre by Greathouse, et al., sparked Lord Dunmore's War in the Ohio Lands -- Logan's venegance (and yes, Logan eventually was sated and died nearly forgotten).

Greathouse and his wife were taken in 1791; Tecumseh would have been about 23 at the time. Tradition has it that Tecumseh was leading the band which captured the Greathouses, and states that Tecumseh neither condoned nor condemned the slaying of the captives. This was taken by the others as permission and the Greathouses were tortured to death in a "dishonorable" manner in retaliation for the earlier killing of Logan's family.

This is not legend, but well-researched history taken from contemporary sources and interviews with participants from both the Indian and White sides.

(Tecumseh was also present for St. Clair's Defeat on the Ohio-Indiana border, the single costliest defeat for the US Army in history -- something like 25% of the active army was slain there.)

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:18 AM

Thanks for taking the time to explain this, Rapaire. There are differences in the way the two cultures related to their "Chiefs". For the whites, a "Chief" holds ultimate authority, is expected to give orders which the people are then forced to obey, whether they agree with the "Chief" or not. From what I've studied to date, it was different for the Indians. Their culture "sanctified" the individual, and no one - even a Chief - gave orders to another. A leader or elder was expected to share wisdom, experience, opinions, insights etc - but certainly NOT to give "orders". ANd even if such orders were given, it was no dishonour or "crime" for those who might disagree to do their own thing instead. Rather, it was expected.

In light of this, it seems odd that Tecumseh's 'permission' would have been required in the first place - especially over such a relatively common 'problem' as what to do about war captives. But then again, Tecumseh had formed an Indian federation the extent of which had never been seen before on this continent - so probably the customs and mores around war practices were changing as well.

Thanks for the insights!

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: pdq
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 10:19 AM

much more here

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 04:07 PM

thanks pdq. And Rapaire, if Tecumseh did act uncharacterstically by looking the other way as Greathouse and his wife were tortured and killed, perhaps it was because he was Logan's brother-in-law (at least according to one of the sources I've read today), and families were bound by honour and tradition to avenge their own??

At any rate, he certainly expressed different sentiments during the Battle for Detroit in 1812, according to this version of the story.

"Cf. Robert McAfee, History of the Late War in the Western County (1816), p. 272:

... The dispute between them had become serious when Colonel Elliot and Tecumseh came down from the batteries to the scene of carnage. As soon as Tecumseh beheld it, he flourished his sword and in a loud voice ordered them 'For shame do desist. It is a disgrace to kill a defenoeless prisoner.' His orders were obeyed, to the great joy of the prisoners, who had by this time lost all hopes of being preserved. In this simple act, Tecumseh displayed more humanity, magnanimity, and civilization, than Procter with all his British associates in command, displayed through the whole war on the northwestern frontiers."

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:15 PM

For a real thrill, check out the history of the "Battle" of Stillman's Run during the Black Hawk War.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 05:53 PM

Guest 22 Aug 05 - 03:08 PM:

Re your comment to me to "lighten up for crying out loud, life is too short to have so much one sided negativity", my response is that negativity is as negativity does, and IMO GWB is negativity personified to the nth degree.

As to "that" [whatever that is] "causing {me} to read things that are not implied", I'm not sure how else to read your sentence that
"As far as "Tecumseh vs Bush", Tecumseh was a fearless and brillant leader and would have been on the side of GWB" than to interprete it as meaning that you consider GWB to be a fearless and brilliant leader.

I repeat that that description of President Bush would be comical if he were not responisble for so much grief in this country, in Iraq, and around the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Azizi
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:04 PM

Hmmm, on third thought maybe your comment gave props to Tecumseh on the one hand and took it away on the other, for I'd have to question the intelligence of anyone who still supports Bush' failed war.

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 08:34 PM

Tecumseh's war failed, too, Azizi. But we respect him as warrior and a leader of his people....

Subject: RE: BS: Tucumseh vs Bush?
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 01:50 PM

War of 1812