BS: English Football Thugs Film

Subject: BS: English Soccer Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Johnny Doran
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 11:39 AM

Just got the DVD sent over to me of the film, Green Street Holligans. Which looks at the English soccer thugs. I can see way so many in England did not want this film to be seen or made.Reviews all said it's very true to life over there every Saturday. Is there law and order on the streets there ? There is no way this would be acceptable in the states. Is it true English followers of soccer are the worst in the world when it comes to thuggery ?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 12:27 PM

Well, it's partially true. There is an amount of football related violence. It has been very much reduced in the last few years, but it still exists.

Our football thugs the worst in the world? There or thereabouts...

Law and order on the streets? Not really. The police spend more time on paperwork than patrol, and the senior officers seem to regard their forces as a social engineering tool.

Why chase muggers when you can prosecute minor motoring offenses? A mugger hasn't got a number-plate on. Might actually take some work to find them...

And Friday or Saturday night in a city centre, over-run with drunken young louts, turfed out of drinking barns after getting tanked up on cheap alcohol. Law and order? I believe it's the name of a chain pub...

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 01:41 PM

Let's make a difference between the bastards you are talking about Johnny and real football fans. The scum you refer to do indeed have a "sport". It is fighting. They don't like doing it in gymnasiums and clubs where they have to fight people of near their own weight and ability. I could offer several suggestions as to why that is not the case.
The majority of football fans are no more violent than the average knitter of woolly mittens. Unfortunately, the scum attach themselves to football crowds and thrive on the anonymity as a blanket for their thuggery. I have attended football matches for over thirty years and they have always disgusted me.
I do not have either the inclination or physique for violence. (At five foot four, I am half the size of nothing). I am a pretty average football fan. I did all my fighting sports in gymanasiums (boxing and judo as a kid and now karate). I have never fought anyone in any other place. That makes me about as violent as the average football fan. The scum does exist, but I don't deserve to be judged by their actions.
In short, they exist, but they are a pitiful minority.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:00 PM

Johnny, your description of English Football fans is about as accurate as me saying that all Americans are lazy, burger-eating, coke-swilling, ignorant, ill-informed lard-ass bigmouths. There must be a few like that but the vast majority are fine people.

I've spectated at football matches for almost fifty years and never been involved in any sort of hooliganism or violence. Not saying it never happens, just that it's far, far rarer than journalists and film-makers would have you believe, and that those who do involve themselves in it are a very, very small minority, and they are not, repeat NOT football fans. They are just thugs who, if football didn't exist, would find another activity to attach themselves to.

And there are many other countries who have similar problems or worse - e.g. South American countries where referees have been shot for making unpopular decisions, and players murdered by the fans after playing badly.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:01 PM

"I do not have either the inclination or physique for violence."

Neither do I. And on occasion that has been someone else's first mistake.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:02 PM

all Americans are lazy, burger-eating, coke-swilling, ignorant, ill-informed lard-ass bigmouths

That's their President.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Alex Folly
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:06 PM

Yeah it's true. Lived there for five years and my partner was a soccer fan, used to go on match days. Fans of teams playing Manchester United used to sing a song they made up about the Munich air disaster called the Runway song. Fans of clubs song other sick songs about Heysel and Hillsbourgh.Coloured players always got it really bad. I doubt the German police are looking forward to the Soccer World Cup next year !

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:08 PM

Derek Brimstones sons have written a couple of books on the subject. and they sold very well.

I think they make good films about it. More bloody intersting than football. There was that one ID with the bloke who plays Inspector Dalziel in it. And I saw another one with Gary Thingy who played Dracula.

But don't take my word for it. come to england and have a fight.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: fat B****rd
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:10 PM

Gary Oldman in The Firm, weelittledrummer. Lots of famous faces in their younger days.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Cluin
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:21 PM

Robert Carlyle in "The 51st State (Formula 51)"

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:38 PM

I'm sure it has been said before but young men are the most dangerous force on the planet. This can be said of the young men of all nations.
Those in power know this, of course, and recruit such young men into their armed forces. You really don't want to live in a country like Somalia, Liberia, Chechnya or the Bosnia of a few years ago where young men are/were just supplied with automatic weapons and unleashed ...
Hopefully, football hooligans mainly fight each other? I hope so, I loathe and detest football and would rather have root canal work at the dentists than go to a football match.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Tommy Jordan
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 02:56 PM

Good point DB. The British Army recruited them and sent them to Ulster !

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 04:55 PM

Well I actually live at the end of the real Green Street, and although there are certain elements of the film (bearing in mind I've only seen reviews, the local council refused permission for it to be shown in cinemas here) that are accurate, they are condensed so it appears worse than it is.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 02:37 AM

Root canal work DB , with no anaesthetic!

I would rather spend an evening with Jack the Ripper, fred West and have the Reverend Jim Jones make the tea, than do another gig in a pub with a large telvision screen six inches above your head showing a football match.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: yrlancslad
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 02:41 AM

Yes it's true there is violence at football matches in the U.K. such that when I went to my first American football match (a Raiders game at that ) I was amazed at the lack of violence and the general good nature of the crowd. At the same time I don't think you can make general comparisons from that. Most of the time they're not actually killing each other on the streets of Manchester unlike the streets of Oakland whose homocide rate for this year exceeds that for the whole of the UK. Take this from one who knows both cities.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:08 AM

homocide?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 05:43 AM

When the English soccer hordes visit Germany for next summers World Cup the German Police are opening Colditz in anticipation of these hate filled scum making life miserable for genuine football fans.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:49 AM

Dickhead.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:57 AM

WLD - does it mean what I think it means?? LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 AM

"...hate filled scum making life miserable for genuine football fans..."
I have no problem with that as a description ofthe rabble referred to in the first post. I just really do take exception to it being used as a generic description of English football fans. I am an English football fan myself. I am neither full of hate, nor am I scum.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:17 AM

Just in case, he said in a manly voice, I want you you know where my sympathies lie.......which side of the er.....well you know!

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:23 AM

LOL!

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Joe Moran
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:33 AM

The first poster says the police in the UK choose to spend more time chasing people involved in minor motoring offences, and not dealing with real crime. Now, I've come up with a brilliant idea! What if we all stop commiting those " minor" offences, and let the police get on with dealing with real crime.

p.s. Judging by the speed most car drivers go passed me, I would reckon - at any one time - 100s of thousands of motorists are breaking the law. But - like the soccer hooligans - they will find some way to justify their actions.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:44 AM

As Liz says, the football ground depicted is about 5 minutes walk from us and we used to live even closer. I haven't seen football violence on the streets in the more than 20 years I've lived close to the ground. I'm not sure the council can refuse permission for the film to be shown - I haven't seen it advertised as showing anywhere else. I'm sure the council were glad to take money off the producers when it was being made.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:47 AM

Football is a girly nancy -boy game anyway. Real men play Rugby Union.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 09:55 AM

No Ted, REAL men play League! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: alanabit
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 10:26 AM

Actually, when I see drivers hurtling at high speed down the street, which my young children have to cross, I am quite capable of developing violent feelings. I do not regard it as a minor offence at all.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 01:40 PM

The local council told the cinemas not to show it because it 'defames the name of the borough'. They didn't baulk at the fee given it by the filmmakers when they asked for permission to film in Green Street. I suspect the cinemas will show it anyway because it's not an enforceable request.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 06:04 PM

then there was the gang of vicious degenerate Daz users, they found a couple Bold supporters of down an alley - a case of Omo-cide.

when they got them to hospital, they were pronounced non-biological on arrival

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 05:03 AM

And the gang made a clean getaway?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Grab
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 07:37 AM

Is it true English followers of soccer are the worst in the world when it comes to thuggery?

Worse than gangs in Washington DC or any other major US city? I'm afraid English soccer fans aren't even close...

FWIW, there's more reported physical violence in the UK than in the US. Whether there's more *actual* physical violence in the US than the UK is difficult to say - areas of UK cities/towns with many pubs are usually pretty well patrolled by police on foot, whereas US cities/towns don't *have* pub areas, don't have police patrols in the same way, and so aren't likely to result in as many arrests. Bear in mind that most physical violence doesn't result in arrests unless there's been some serious result requiring a trip to hospital or unless the police have intervened.

However there *is* an order of magnitude more murders in the US than in the UK, both in sheer numbers and percentage-wise.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 08:14 AM

Having seen what a crowd of pissed-up republicans from Derry did to letterkenny in the 80s, I think it's not just a "Brit" problem.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 10:14 AM

Having seen what a crowd of pissed-up Turks did to a Leeds guy, I think you're right PP.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Union jacked
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 12:38 PM

Deaths involving English football fans, 96 died in Hillsborough, 39 died in Heysel Stadium in Belgium, both disasters involved Liverpool fans, resulting in all English teams being barred from European competitions for 5 years.

Making obscene gestures at the ladies in Istanbul didn`t go down well with the Turks, we can go nowhere.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Bodmin Steve
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 03:25 PM

Dear God, is that really what you think about us Brits at football?! Yes, a tiny minority of people sometimes have a 'tear-up' with each other on match days (usually well away from the stadium and 'non-combatants'). This normally involves lots of finger pointing, vulgar gestures, shouting, and a few punches and kicks being traded. Meanwhile, on the streets of any US City, the gangs have guns...
I go to football regularly (at Plymouth Argyle) as does Robin Dransfield, The Lakeman Brothers and Vic Legg. Perhaps we should start a "firm" of hardcore English ballad performers...

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:40 AM

Union Jacked:
"Deaths involving English football fans, 96 died in Hillsborough, 39 died in Heysel Stadium in Belgium, both disasters involved Liverpool fans..."
I will just point out the context of those statistics to those who do not know it, or may have forgotten.
The Heysel Stadium disaster happened in a European Cup Final in Brussels. A group of thugs commenced fighting and the vast majority of Liverpool fans tried to get out of the way. The wall did not collapse where the fighting took place. It collapsed where the pressure of hundreds of fans - who were trying to get away from it - pressed against a wall, which could not withstand the pressure. Italian fans on the other side of the wall were suffocated.
Yes, there was fighting by a small group of human detritus, but what were the other fans to do?
Blaming Liverpool fans for the Hillsborough disaster is beneath contempt. They were at the Sheffield Wednesday ground for an FA Cup semi final, when a fire broke out. They were the victims of a terrible disaster - and probably poor crowd handling.
Associating distrait families with thugs says more about cliched prejudice than it does about football fans.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 07:15 AM

There has been violence and rioting at football games in England since the 19th Centuary, Tottenham Hotspurs were banned from playing at home for a number of games. In the 1960's it got worse and peaked in the 1970s and 1980's. Trouble at football matches is not confined to English clubs (there's plenty of trouble in Europe especially in Holland, Germany and Italy); as a generalisation the English 'fans' are the only one's who go abroad with the national or local teams.

There is also much evidence to suggest that a lot of the trouble between 'fans' outside the football grounds in England are not random events but organised 'challange matches'.

Darren

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

Milwall when they played at the Den had their ground closed, and what was the reason English teams were prevented from playing in European Competitions?,.
I dread our reputation being sullied again in Germany at the next World Cup, can anyone be certain that our fans will depart peacefully if we are beaten?, I still have my doubts, two bottles of strong German beer will be too much for some.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: alanabit
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:07 PM

See you anon eh?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Joe McCrory
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:37 PM

Have to agree with you Union Jacked, they really are the scum of Europe when it comes to supporters. I suppose that is why they receive so much European Police attention. You are right in the figures you list, no one can try to smudge over these as hard the above may try. Good to see it highlighted here to our American friends

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 03:46 PM

Touch of penis envy there, Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:23 PM

opinion is that the dutch out hooligan the english

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Joe McCrory
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:32 PM

Do the dutch enlist them in their army ?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 10:07 AM

perhaps they should, have you ever seen the dutch army?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Liverpool fan
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 06:39 PM

Mary had a little lamb
It had a touch of colic
She fed it brandy twice a day
And now its an alcoholic.
She brought to a football match
to see her team at home
it joined the thugs at united's end
and started throwing stones.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:37 PM

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:43 PM

Just for a bit of context...

In the fall of 1982 I was an exchange student at Northwestern University in Evanston, Illinois. One of the things NU was known for was having the worst college football team in their division. They hadn't won for a couple of years (I forget how long).

Anyway, one Saturday in October (I think) they played Northern Illinois University at home and won. The crowd, mainly comprising white, middle-class university students, invaded the pitch, tore down both goalposts, carried them out of the stadium, stopped at the house of the University President (who came out and greeted them), then carried them to Lake Michigan and threw them in. I still have pictures.

At the time I remember thinking if a crowd of British fans did that they would have been branded scum, hooligans, vermin and all the rest. When these Joe College kids do it it's a bit of fun.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:36 PM

Football was banned in the 15th or 16th century for being too violent.. and that was just the game!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,English Bloke
Date: 11 Jan 06 - 07:17 PM

Listen you little bunch of geeks. If you think you know that much about it come down and give it a shot. You neva' know. You might like it away from your computer.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:25 AM

See you outside the Boleyn tonight then?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 09:12 AM

But Manitas - you'll be nowhere near the Boleyn tonight... it's Thursday and you know that's Bouncy Bertha's pitch on a Thursday....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 10:47 AM

Yeah, but I have to pass the Boleyn on the way.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 05:49 PM

Well, did he turn up?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 06:23 AM

He wasn't there when I went by

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:07 AM

Isn't it sad when a husband and wife have to conduct a conversation online......

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:13 AM

It's cheaper than the phone, you do want to save some money for the holidays don't you?

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:46 AM

True... Holdays plural - does that mean we're going to the Getaway in October too?

How about we each put £5 aside each week for spending money?

Oh and it's cottage pie for dinner tonight.... OK?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 10:49 AM

What's this we? I've been saving for months already!

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:05 AM

Bollocks.. I waited from 6 till 8 on you and it was a no show.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 13 Jan 06 - 11:07 AM

I went by at 8:20, you should have hung on.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,English Bloke
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:13 PM

We should arrange another meeting.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: GUEST,English Bloke
Date: 15 Jan 06 - 04:14 PM

Also you lot, stop calling it SOCCER!!!

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Crystal
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:44 AM

English fans (and the players!) are bad, unfortunatly for sheer bloodyminded nastyness the scottish football supporters are worse! I have been on several trains in Scotland which have had to be evacuated as fights break out which can't be stopped. What I mind most is that usually there won't be another train along for an hour and a half and the thugs are passing the time by having a punch-up on the platform!

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 05:27 PM

He'll be there again this week English Bloke.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Jan 06 - 06:36 PM

Isn't it sad when a husband and wife have to conduct a conversation online......

Do they stop checking what you've posted round here when you get married? This will be the 36th post week this week I'll get told off for...

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 05:20 AM

I don't check up on him.. .whether he checks up on me or not I can't say...

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 05:35 AM

Nah, not at all.

Subject: RE: BS: English Football Thugs Film
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Jan 06 - 11:45 AM

Phew!!!

LTS

Er... lovely sunset out there tonight!