BS: Kids & Festivals charging

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: shankmac
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 08:28 AM

Lucy started the whole thing by saying that she should not have to pay for her children when it is her that wants to go to festivals and they have to go whether they want to or not but I cannot think of any ticketed event that you could get children into for nothing by saying "They don't want to be here". I will try that the next time when I take the kids to the cinema or Disneyland or Stately home (where they definitely dont want to be). Just a thought. Mac

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 09:28 AM

And mine definitely does want to be there - so would they have to do a "motivation test" on the gate? :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 09:57 AM

I'd love to see a kid that doesn't want to do to Disneyland! Yeah, Yeah, I get the message, Like I have said ...... I did not say I should not have to pay for kids who don't want to be there, what I said was....well I take it back, I put it rather clumsily didn't I? What I meant was, I don't see why I have to pay such extortionate amounts for my children when they just are not darned well welcome - if people dont want them there dont have kids tickets! I'll know where I stand with my kids and those who didn't want kids there will be happy. I'll go to kids friendly festivals, sod you miserable buggers, may the warm magic that a happy child's smile brings to the heart never touch your soul!
'nuff said!
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 02:47 PM

No I'm not childless, as I have a son who will be 36 on 23rd of this month. Even now I regard him as my responsibility, as I helped bring him into the world, and am thereby responsible for the effect he has on our planet. I know all the arguments about children being the support of the next generation, but in some ways that is as logical as the MAD theory of avoiding nuclear war. We live longer these days, and therefore require support for longer, which logistically means more children working and paying taxes. It's an inflationary spiral, and logic dictates that at some point we are going to have to grasp the nettle, and limit population. I still fimly believe that all people should pay for events, and goods, things got for nothing are less, and sometimes not at all appreciated.
I know that some folk festivals are expensive, this is usually because they have expensive guests.
I know that this is a divisive subject, and it will set the old against the young, and the parents against the childless, but I totally disagree with the statement in the first contribution to this thread, i.e. Parents are subsidising the childless, that is like shitting the bed and blaming the blanket.
Failte....Giok.
" For the family of man, keeps growing"

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: JudeL
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 01:57 PM

Yes, festivals are expensive to organise, no I don't expect children who are taking up a place in a concert to get in free, BUT.. if the cost of taking a family to a festival is too high, those with children will not go thus losing both the price of the parents tickets and the chance to encourage the next generation who are the festivals future customers. Also when someone does not camp or go to a festival for a few years the idea of "camping" tends to appear progressivly less attractive, so they may not return even when the children are gone. Some festivals do cater for younger festival goers with a variety of suitable workshops and activities that are an alternative to the formal "adult" concerts. This usually means less bored (children in general have a much shorter attention span) potentially disruptive children in the concerts. Unfortunately most festivals do not allow people to camp and pay only for the camping without buying a full festival ticket. An alternative that would probably appeal to those with teenagers who are only there because they are too young to be left at home on their own, currently get charged full adult price but don't go to a single concert, preferring to "hang out" with other youngsters their own age.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Melani
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 02:39 PM

I am only putting in my two cents because I am very unhappy that I cannot attend a concert today that I would very much like to see--largely because of childcare issues. Theoretically, I could take my developmentally disabled 14-year-old son with me. There's at least a 75% chance that he would behave pretty decently--and about a 25% chance that I'd have to take him out if he annoyed the people around us. He loves music, and would probably just sit and rock back and forth, which would be okay unless he got too into it and started bouncing off the people next us. As you may guess, I am speaking from experience here. He might also get bored and start talking too loudly, or discover some new and exciting unacceptable behavior that I haven't even thought of yet. It would cost $36 for tickets for the two of us. If he didn't behave, I'd end up angry and frustrated, and so would he.

Because of his disability and attendant behavior issues, I was never able to leave him with other people in childcare even when he was small. I did sometimes stay there with him if there was a play area with toys, and observed first-hand how people would dump their kids off and leave them for hours--once a two-year-old with a fever, and her mother could not be found. This is why my Renaissance Faire guild no longer provides childcare, or even a play area. We tried it, and it was abused. (We do run a kid craft table, where they can make stuff out of leather for a small donation.)

Most places have reduced kid rates, as everyone has been saying. In the U.S., kid rates are usually until age 12, though it certainly can vary. I would like to see it up to age 18, which in this country is when the little monsters officially become big monsters and can register to vote--though they still can't drink until 21. One local pub does a weekly session where kids are allowed up to 10 p.m., because they serve food until then and can claim it's a restaurant. I've been told by the management if the kid is low profile and nobody complains, they probably won't watch the clock real close.

We do sometimes take Daniel to the San Francisco FREE Folk Festival, where the price is right. He loves to hear music, but whoever is watching him cannot take a workshop, because he requires constant vigilence to see that he doesn't misbehave. So we grab a schedule as soon as we go in and start negotiating with each other.

The SF Folk Festival does provide a lot of kid workshops and activities, and because it's free, they certainly attract a lot of families. The more formal concerts are in a theater (it's held in a large school building), so noisy kids can be elsewhere, and people come and go a lot. People have to have a certain level of tolerance for kids, and parents have to make them behave. If you've got a real behavior problem, like I do, you may just have to make a decision about attendence.

Mostly I'm unhappy right now because I'm going to be doing my income tax instead of listening to fiddle music. If I had childcare or the tickets were cheaper, I could probably get away with doing both. As it is, I think I'll go put a tape on. Thanks for letting me rant.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: vectis
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 05:07 PM

The Travelling Folk Song and Ale will take place in East Sussex in July. We are not charging for accompanied children under 16. We reckon that most 16 year olds can stay at home alone if they don't want to go a-folking. We are not providing any separate activities for children but experience tells us that children get together and do things for themselves with minimal supervision.
We thought this policy to be the fairest for a weekend event that only costs £10 per head, including camping.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Apr 02 - 05:23 PM

My thoughts exactly vectis - wonder why it is the low cost festivals (Yours is a tenner for the weekend - ours is a bit more pricey but still only sick squid for the day) that operate this policy? No hidden agenda or digs here - it is a serious question. Why can we charge very little and let kids in for nowt while the more expensive festivals feel they need to charge for juniors?

Perhaps it comes down to the point made earlier - to look after children really does take a lot of time, effort and money. Perhaps the high ticket cost at other festivals does reflect an element of childcare? If this is the case I am not bothered by it myself as I can well afford it.

But what about the people who can't? Surely it would be better to charge less for admission, nothing for children and then let the parents decide for themselves whether it is worth taking the sprogs or not? I have the same experience as you vectis - The children will indeed look after themselves.

Also, some parents will not mind looking after one or two extra (As I often have. I didn't even notice sometimes!) while friends go off to see a particular concert spot or whatever. It seems to make sense but unfortunately there are fewer and fewer people who are willing to help others nowadays and expect everything to be done for them. Sigh...

Even nostalgia ain't what it used to be;-)

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 15 Apr 02 - 10:28 AM

Just another thought.
The cost of a festival ticket + camping over a weekend is generally not far off of what you pay for an official campsite down toward the south coast.
So, even if your kids are just camping and hanging out with friends they're probably still getting reasonable value in comparison.
Its all relative - and festivals are mostly excellent value for money when you add up all the people you meet, the concerts you see, the campsite singing you do etc etc etc....
Just try comparing it to the ruinous cost of a cinema film + burgers & sweets & drinks - runs into a ton of money for family entertainment for about 2 hours. That's why we go to festivals - and not generally to the cinema!
Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 04:24 AM

Leave your kids with a sitter. My the time you figure in admission, drinks, food, novelty it will be cheaper. You will be happier, your nerves and pocketbook will be less frayed too.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 05:27 AM

Hah! Guest - I'll let you tell Amoret......

I'm always happier WITH my kid. She's good company - and an established folkie.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: JudeL
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 07:02 AM

Kris: you compared the cost of festivals to that of campsites and with some festivals whilst allowing for a trade off between proper facilities (often including laundry etc) versus portaloos and concerts, I agree the costs are not that different but other festivals have prohibitivly high prices and are in a whole different cost league.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 07:14 AM

Yeah - I was just trying to make it seem not so bad.....
Out of interest - which are the prohibitively exspensive ones & how much do they charge?
I expect those are ones we've never been to anyway - because we are a bit cheapskate!

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:11 AM

If everyone is dedicated to the music and contributes and I mean everyone=then festivals should cost nothing. So get dedicated bring what you have and share or else follow the money carrot elsewhere. Folk festivals should be free and open because they can be!

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST,vectis at work
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:14 AM

Festivals can't be free in the UK. You have to have a site, publicity and public liability insurance. Festivals can only be free when there are no outgoings to be recouped.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 09:24 AM

As someone who has performed at Festivals I will say only this..Small children should not be allowed to distract players or the audience. I am amazed that so many parents feel that once they have arrived at avenue the kids are no longer their resposibility. I have actually had kids crewl up on the sage while mum and dad ahhhed over the "cureness" of it all. I turn down some work where I know there will be loads of these darkings. As for paying a minder, I agree that Festivals could provide a service but parents must pay, pick up children on time and refrain from having a piss up while others mind the baby. I see no reason for others to subsidize other peoples children at public events. P S my local Pup does not allow children under five on concert nights for all of the above reasons. Parents must keep in mind that no one goes to concerts to SEE or Hear their children.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 10:05 AM

Guest - as regards these kids whose parents ahhh over the "cuteness" of their behaviour...
Sometimes, when faced with an appalling child, the surrounding people are overly tactful - and that can lead the parents to think no-one minds, or that everyone is entranced by the child's antics. That is unfortunate, because it can be a case of everyone being nice & trying to smooth the situation over, whilst internally seething....
I know that in the past, when some child has been really annoying me I have said "Oh don't worry, it doesn't matter" to the parents. You kind of assume that they will realise that it does matter really - but sometimes they take it at face value & let the kid carry on. Which is my fault I suppose for not having the confidence to make my feelings clear (hopefully without causing too much offence).
Anyone else suffer from this?

Kris
Ps - I don't really hate kids (much) - but I don't want anyone else's kid carreening round my tent at 7am while I'm trying to cook breakfast..........

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Apr 02 - 11:20 AM

I've had so much trouble from other children... parents see me with mine and assume I'm going to look after theirs as well.. and it isn't just the younger ones either! I've been to a festival where the woman next to me left her 14yr old son at 8.00am breakfast, saying she'd be back in an hour and she turned drunk at 7.30pm, nearly 12 hours later, bitching because he'd eaten all the cereal and so she wasn't going to take him out for dinner. He'd spent all day wandering around asking people if they'd seen her, she'd been in the pub knowing full well he wouldn't be allowed in.

I would never leave my child with someone whom I don't trust or like.... and she is fairly picky too, although she will wander off with anyone sometimes! I agree that younger children are distracting at festivals where they wander about, but surely if they are not in any danger, or endangering others, isn't that preferable to them being strapped into a chair screaming they want to get out, or they and their paying parents not being there at all? If she picks on someone and attaches herself to them, we will always ask the person, and if they don't mind, then that's fine. If they do, we move on and tell her the person doesn't want her to play.

The biggest problem is other parents. If you dare to tell a child off, you are immediately stomped on as being a child molester and potential murderer..... The amount of times I've heard a parent bitching about a child being naughty, not noticing that their own offspring is doing the same if not worse! If I see a child of any parentage or description doing something wrong or dangerous, I will tell it off, and I have never shouted at anyone for doing the same to my daughter....unless they are being unfair; she will often listen to others more readily than me! Having a stewards badge and a Hi-Vis jacket helps.... sometimes I feel like taking mine along even when I'm not officially stewarding.....

There are people who will always want a child free festival. There will always be people who want a family festival. No-one will ever win, and everyone will end up paying.

And in the UK, it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 11 unattended at any time.

LTS