BS: stay afloat while others don't

Subject: extended family woes
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 04:53 PM

I'm scared that no one else will understand what this post/thread is about. This is stuff I was brought up not to talk about.

Earlier BS threads from me have been open about my history of treatment for depression, at least I thought I was being open about it. And how it is still a struggle. I'm still under a doctor's supervision and I remain on meds, I really need them. I know that after trying to get off of them under the doctor's supervision. That was really frightening, to find out how chemical my condition is, and how much I need those meds. I was also raised, after all, not to ask for help.

Keeping my distance from my family of origin is essential for my well-being. I have done this fairly completely. There are still financial and legal, what shall I call them, relationships, which it was best not to alter at the time. So I have an attorney and a representative.
I'm holding my own, fairly stable, although I am far from secure, and I remain vigilant about myself.

The thing on my mind now, is that the people I was raised with, the ones I keep a distance from, are going from bad to worse. And I can't help having, inside, an emotional and psychic response, even as I stay as separate as possible.

This sounds so heartless: but I dare not hop out of my own little boat and go after the people in question who are out of control. I don't dare. I know too well that they are not interested in getting the kind of help that I got twenty years ago when I was in pain myself. I am manoeuvering my own boat as well as I do today, because I got help for myself instead of running to the dysfunctional family bosom.

Now there is a blood relative operatically dropping hints about not being able to live with it any more. And another blood relative using drugs, being abusive domestically, and being enabled and protected all to heck -- De-Nial River flows right through that living room.

Some fifteen years ago I broke my silence and raised my voice about the spouse-hitting, and it certainly did set the cat amongst the pigeons. Maybe things got better for a while. Maybe things are not exactly as they were fifteen years ago when I spoke out. But I said my piece. Now, tough as it is, I have to keep myself sane and well, and not get dragged down in the family maelstrom.

Thanks everyone for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 05:25 PM

I am so sorry keberoxu that you've had such tough times. But I admire your courage, as you obviously sorted yourself out sensibly with medication and by distancing yourself from various toxic contacts.

The people about whom you're concerned are presumably adults, and should be left to find their own solutions (or not). You can't be responsible for their lifestyles or their lack of motivation to change.
Not only will you never manage to change them unless they themselves are willing, you risk going backwards with your own progress, which will do nobody any good. Going 'no contact' sounds to me to be the healthy way for you to deal with what's going on with them.

Your thread title says it all, and in my view you're quite right. Don't sink your own little boat trying to pull unwilling folk out of the water!

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: ripov
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 08:27 PM

Listening and - as far as possible - understanding.
As Senoufou says, the first step is accepting the problem exists. While those round you aren't aware that their problems are within themselves, nothing can help them, and if you try, you will wear yourself down, and achieve nothing; although it is hard to see those close to you hurting themslves. And by trying to discuss the problems you saw, you did the right thing.
Look after yourself first. Then, if circumstances change you may be in a position to offer help. But if you wear yourself out, you will be no use even to yourself.

Tony

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: ChanteyLass
Date: 09 Apr 17 - 10:47 PM

I echo the thoughts of the two previous posters.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:34 AM

vicarious pain.
Take heart that it is not as bad second hand.
If people ask for help, you will be there. If they don't, all you have is dropping hints about the possibility of solutions.

Don't put yourself between two fighting dogs. You will be preventing them from doing what they do.

As a very insightful GF once said to me "people gravitate towards the familiar" - (not the comfortable). They become inured to it. But you know that surely.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 03:44 AM

I am so sorry for your trials, and wish for you the strength to stay afloat and be a guide to those around you who are struggling and failing.
Prayers and best wishes (I wish I could offer more),
keith.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Apr 17 - 10:37 PM

You have your life and you deserve your life. It is yours. You do not owe anyone anything, and I suspect that you've paid dearly over the years. You say there is an attorney involved; let the attorney handle things. This may sound harsh, but it is probably the best way to go.

I've seen this all too often, and all I can tell you is that "the only way to the other side is through." And you can do it, because others have.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 04:18 AM

I've been re-reading your post keberoxu, and just wanted to add the following:-

Regarding the relative who is 'operatically dropping hints that they can't live with it any more', if these are suicide threats, there are so many agencies they can approach for sympathetic help. Most folk know about the Samaritans for example. And if their despair is due to their situation, they can choose to make changes, move away, become more assertive, get counselling, any number of strategies with which to help themselves.

The person who is using drugs and being physically abusive is particularly someone from whom you need to stay far far away. Their domestic victim/s will probably come to the point where they take protective action. There are various aid agencies who can intervene in domestic violence, including the Police. And I have worked as a volunteer with criminal drug users/addicts, so can say from experience that drug use is extremely difficult to address, and needs the professionals. Even then, the success rates are poor. So you definitely shouldn't even attempt to step in there. Without 'seeing the light' for him/herself, the drug user will almost certainly continue to access drugs, and you will end up exhausted and frustrated.

I feel you've done very well so far in 'saving' yourself and it can't have been easy. It sounds to me as if you may have been a bit of a rescuer in the past, and felt such sympathy and compassion for all these dysfunctional folk that you got sucked in, like a boat in a whirlpool. Now you're paddling strongly in your little canoe towards tranquil waters, and I think you should continue going in that direction. Leave the pirate ship to navigate its own course. If it hits the rocks, it's got nothing to do with you.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 12:20 PM

Next time the suicide threat come up, pass your relative a piece of paper with this on it:

National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
Call 1-800-273-8255
Available 24 hours everyday

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: leeneia
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 12:22 PM

And for domestic abuse:

call the National Domestic Violence Hotline at 1−800−799−7233

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: olddude
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 06:38 PM

My dear friend. Please know lots of us care about you. You can talk about anything. I am so glad you have taken control of the struggle.
And if anyone lays a hand ever again on you let me know.. I will pay a visit they won't like

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 11 Apr 17 - 07:45 PM

Cannot tell you how much I needed each and every word from all of you. Heartfelt thanks.

A note to clarify. My post does indeed say spouse-hitting. I'm not the person who was hit, although it is true that the person doing the hitting is a blood relative.

Yes, my extended family has a living room large enough to accommodate De Nial River as well as more elephants than I can keep count of!
The drug user in question is using MDMA -- called something else, on the street -- that I know of, maybe other substances I don't know of.
The addiction elephant has been around for generations. The earliest alcoholic I know of was a direct ancestor who died, at an advanced age, in 1915. Those descendants of his, who were not alcoholics or users, were expected to enable, cover up, and protect everybody from the consequences of their behavior.   There is a self-identified alcoholic in my generation for example; last time I had a conversation with this latter person, we had a big fight and we will probably never speak again. I don't know of any of my relatives, with chemical dependencies, going for treatment or confronting the fact that they have an illness. The whole famn damily is just expected to be sick right along with them.

I am reminded of, I think it was the Nobel-winning Max Planck:

"Science progresses funeral by funeral."

That's true of some families as well. Sorry that is so down, but it's life, at the moment.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 04:33 AM

MDMA is Ecstasy. I expect a user of a 'recreational drug' would be tempted to try other more addictive substances too, as this is the general pattern.
I've seen families with addictive traits 'in their genes'.
You have such a clear and sensible overview of your family and their problems keberoxu, that I reckon you will look after yourself and keep your distance.
Thinking of you.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Jack Campin
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 07:17 AM

MDMA (E, ecstasy) is pretty harmless for most people but the ones who get fucked up by it REALLY get fucked up. It seems to start delusional hatreds that can last a lifetime. Anyone who manages to combine a dependency on that stuff with being physically abusive is well beyond communicating with.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 07:40 AM

Loads of clubbers take Ecstasy tablets and seem to come to no harm, as you say Jack. Among the drug users I spoke to, the substances which caused aggression were speed and cocaine. Opiates and cannabis gave rise to torpor and demotivation. Ecstasy merely induces euphoria,
although in some cases it can cause overheating of the body and resultant dangerous dehydration.
I believe some people (and as keberoxu says, it does seem to be genetic) are predisposed to addictions, whether it be alcohol, food, drugs or other substances. I seem to remember an article in which scientists claimed to have found such a gene among quite a significant proportion of people of Irish origin. But of course, social norms and cultures also play their part.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 01:43 PM

In my decades of seeking counseling, before my counselor changed professions, my anti-depressant meds came from my general practitioner, as they do now. My counselor did not write prescriptions, ever. But this person had to have a working acquaintance of some kind with prescribed substances.

My counselor had this to say about MDMA. Used heavily and consistently over time, it does something that the casual user would not expect. The casual user gets the temporary euphoria, resulting from MDMA engaging with a specific brain activity. But abuse/heavy-use of MDMA affects that very part of the brain in an adverse way, my counselor told me. That part of the brain, which has access to euphoria, becomes disabled instead. My counselor said: "It's a lifetime sentence of depression."

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 02:22 PM

That's really interesting! It's as if repeated use of a certain part of the brain over time causes it to be disabled, and it can no longer produce pleasure.
It goes to show that most drug use isn't good for us if done to excess and for a long time.

The heroin addicts I worked with in prisons as a volunteer had managed to get 'clean' quite a few times, but nearly always slipped backwards and started injecting again. In those days (I don't know about now) they were prescribed Methadone or Subutex to help them, but it became obvious to me that their addictions were deep-seated and almost part of their psyche. They seemed unable to function once off the drugs, and only felt 'right' when back on the stuff.
That's why it's best to distance oneself from people who are addicted, and let them find their own path (or not). I gave up the voluntary work eventually as I could see no progress, and left them to the Prison Officers, Health Centre staff, Chaplains and doctors. Poor young lads, I fear they were really doomed.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: meself
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 02:52 PM

It seems that substance-abuse is often a response to underlying, and usually undiagnosed, psychological/emotional/mental issues (depression, ADHD, FAS, etc.); hence the term 'self-medicating'. Criminal behaviour is often linked as well. Most people behind bars were probably in desperate need of mental health therapy long before their legal troubles began. Knowing this doesn't necessarily make such people any easier to deal with, though ... you do have to keep yourself healthy before you can help anyone else - and that might necessitate avoiding the people you wish you could help.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 02:57 PM

Not the same thing, but...
I smoked for thirty-some years. I had to work at it to get addicted in the first place. I'd quit several times, but always though it was safe to just have one, and went back to consistent smoking. When I finally quit, I spent quite a bit of time thinking about it, and pushing the boundaries. What I learned was that after not smoking all night until about 10AM, when I had that first cigarette, I got a little rush of happiness, like a little bit of euphoria. I suspect any addiction is at least partly due to the serotonin that the drug provokes. When I finally quit, I was quite unhappy/slightly depressed for at least a year. People don't talk about this when it comes to smoking cessation, but maybe they should. It seems like if the "happy" brain chemicals are supplied from outside, the brain forgets how to provide them.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Apr 17 - 03:36 PM

I found that all the young men I saw in prison had been sent there for burglary, street theft, shop-lifting, receiving stolen goods etc all in order to fund their habits. Each one caused a mini-crime wave. And what was most disturbing was the amount of Class A drugs available 'inside'. What they told me was hair-raising. They kept some needles in the bottom of the Wing tea urn, where they were more or less sterilised(?) Methadone was passed in plastic drinking cups on dental floss thread out of the windows down to awaiting inmates in the cells below, after being regurgitated, as all issuing of medications was supervised. Heroin and many other drugs was brought in by helpful girlfriends inside their...er...bodies. The contortions that went on during visits was unbelievable, as the packages had to be brought forth then concealed in the prisoners' bottoms. I realised that the officers knew all this, but let it go on anyway. I felt deep pity for these lads, and if one is a 'rescuer' one can get far too concerned and it isn't a good idea.
I never could decide if the addicts were drawn into this life, or predisposed to it. (nature or nurture) Perhaps a bit of both? But the distress to their families was dreadful. I've sat in the Visits Waiting Area holding the hand of countless mums and girlfriends in awful distress at their predicament. I could walk away, and eventually did. But it was much harder for them, as it was their sons or partners.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:29 PM

well, I could of course open a fresh thread.
It's the same situation ongoing, though.

The blood relative who tends toward suicidal hints, is active again.
I avoid contact entirely with this person, when there is any business -- literally -- to be concluded between their legal situation and my legal situation, there is a combination of lawyers and financial officers who negotiate things. So it has been for more years than I can actually recall.

The caller ID on my telephone shows that this blood relative has got hold of my home phone number and is making repeated phone calls, with their name and phone number larger than life on the ID screen.

It was not I who gave the relative my phone number. It's a moot thing anyhow. What the relative does not take into account, is that after decades -- not merely years, but decades -- of harassment concerning my telephone, and after going through a knothole of responses of trying to evade it or prosecute it or whatever, I have learned ways of coping that I didn't have before.

Were I to change my phone number, that would signal to the relative making the calls that I acknowledge their crossing the line (my blood relatives know that I wish to be left alone). I don't see evidence of escalating behavior, nor of anyone having the aggression to really actually approach me. So from where I'm sitting, changing my phone number, or doing anything territorial to it, is actually counter-productive. Strange as this sounds, the sanest thing to do is to carry on and not give this person the satisfaction.

While this drama-loving relative is NOT the relative who has issues of substance abuse and of domestic violence/aggression, the fact remains that this relative is -- to use a metaphor for the family dysfunction -- the spider at the center of the spider-web. Loves to be a victim who makes victims of others. I truly know better than to fall for any of it this time.

That makes it a little simpler, but not easier, if this makes any sense. Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 08:45 PM

I can identify with what Jeri says about smoking. I didn't consciously work at it to get addicted; I kept going through the initial unpleasantness because smoking was the done thing in my circle. After that I smoked up to thirty a day of the strongest fags I could get my hands on. The first cigarette after several days' abstinence was the most blissful of all experiences. I had to keep stock still for two minutes to maximise the pleasure as I felt the stuff coursing through my veins from head to foot. In the end I just stopped (40 years ago on February 21 at five past eight in the evening). Not once since then has any tobacco-related product been anywhere near me. After stopping, I sighed non-stop for a month, felt miserable for another two and was sorely tempted many times for a year. The tightness in the chest and constant feeling of tension were terrible for several weeks. But I made it, in large part thanks to Mrs Steve getting pregnant with our first-born to be the month after I stopped. I still dream about smoking.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Feb 18 - 11:19 PM

You have 2 guilt free choices, action or inaction. To keep things simple;

You can do nothing with expectation of likely outcomes.
or
You can do something with unknown outcomes.

When a person is a real danger to others or themselves they can be committed in 20 minutes.
Signing off on modern electro shock therapy is a worthwhile reset gamble.

Get your own counsel on a choice of action.
Stay out of the line of fire if you choose inaction.

You are not obligated to choose any course of action.
Its easier to choose something only you know you can live with best.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Feb 18 - 04:04 AM

keberoxu, it sounds as if you have good strategies still in place for dealing with all of this, but my heart goes out to you as it must be depressing, stressful and exhausting.

It's good that you avoid all direct contact.

I can see your viewpoint about not changing your telephone number, but if this were me, I'd have to take some action about the unwanted calls, as it would make me very jumpy every time the phone rang.
Is there not a blocking system you could use? (We have one here in UK, with BT, and one can nominate numbers which are not acceptable. BT then blocks them for you) I understand you feel this would give them some satisfaction, but your peace of mind is important too.

You sound strong and sensible, and I admire you for it.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 02:17 PM

Greetings from Arizona. I don't live out West now, although this region was my home for over a decade. Have yet to break with my physician though, so I come back here at least annually.

This is a hot time to be here, but being off-season there are compensations. Fewer "snow-birds" and fewer tourists. Off-season prices as a result.

Refrigerated air is as frequent, in buildings out here, as the evaporative "swamp coolers" that simply use water without refrigeration. There are plenty of ways to take refuge from the high heat.
Cloudless sky today; the late Edward Abbey used to write of "deep sky" and I know what he meant by that. Today it is blue infinity.

Had to take a series of three plane flights to arrive here, and, shoot, I'm not as young as I used to be. In my youth it would have been an adventure and I would have been smug about it. Paying for that attitude now...getting the rental car at the airport yesterday, after finally getting my luggage, I felt ready to collapse. Good meal and decent sleep and now much improved.

The ticking time bomb that is my collective birth-family continues to tick away. The earlier reported telephone calls, they went on for the better part of one month, and then there were no more calls. A textbook case of don't-feed-the-troll, it seems.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 02:35 PM

Arizona is lovely, and with all of the light, I suspect there is a photo response that helps with depression. So many SAD folks in my original part of the world (Puget Sound) compared to Arizona.

Any layovers in Dallas? Let me know and I'll run up and greet you at the TSA gate.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jun 18 - 03:28 PM

Aww, Acme, how sweet of you.
And such good news that you are now owned by three dogs again.

One branch of my family is from Washington State.
I don't know where in the state they lived,
before they moved to Whidbey Island.
I visited there once, when the older ones were still living.
Most likely wouldn't go back.

I'll be here for a good two weeks
and I wonder if Senator McCain will last that long.
He's putting up quite the fight, it must be said.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 02:13 PM

That is really sweet of you Acme
but my layover on the way back
-- since I'm flying on Delta airlines --
is Atlanta, not Dallas.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 06:31 PM

At this unusual resort,
there are social workers and psychotherapists on staff.
A social worker graciously agreed to a consult for me,
we spoke this morning; a positive, validating experience.

I went into detail, as much as I could,
about the relative who abuses - or could be past tense, abused - Ecstasy.

And the social worker, whose curriculum vitae includes treatment centers,
confirmed that Ecstasy affects that part of the brain
that contains L-dopamine.
And guess what … Ecstasy doesn't increase the L-dopamine, it depletes the L-dopamine.
The social worker went on to tell me --
this is how ignorant I am --
that the amount of L-dopamine a person has
is a limited amount to begin with.

So Ecstasy is capable of taking away the little that one has.

Subject: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: GUEST, member as guest, don't want to get sued
Date: 15 Jun 18 - 08:03 PM

Someone today on facebook posted a meme with remarks adding up to "get over yourself and get back on speaking terms with your family." If the person who posted that knew how long we struggled before we realized the only way to stay safe was to stop talking to a particularly toxic family member, they'd understand how naive that meme is.

We literally feared for our lives. He seems to be okay with the general public and he positively dotes on little old ladies (perhaps because they give him money and are classic enablers) but there are family members who know full well that if this sib had a gun handy during one of his outbursts he'd likely kill someone. Probably one of us. We struggled to keep him from claiming any handguns or other firearms from family estates. He is banned from most regional gambling casinos, and we hope his instability has him on a mental health watchlist. Any time there is a story of a stalker shooting in that part of the country I hold my breath until I learn it wasn't this brother. This time. Family members breathe easier when they learn that this brother hasn't been informed about a wedding or reunion.

I'm taking advantage of a mod's willingness to move this in order to post these remarks anonymously. All these years later I know that my disturbed but very smart sibling is probably trying to see if any of us says anything negative about him. So I say it in a way he can't find.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Jun 18 - 01:59 PM

Mudcat Member Incognito/a,
this is a good place for support when needed.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Charmion
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 10:17 AM

How ghastly, Incog. The Internet has plenty of unsolicited advice that is worth precisely as much as you pay for it -- i.e., nothing. But it is so hard to ignore, especially when introduced with belittling remarks such as "Get over yourself."

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Joe_F
Date: 18 Jun 18 - 08:51 PM

In my experience, depression pretty much coincides with contact with reality. Sure, it's "chemical" -- so is being sober.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 02:02 PM

Thankfully, the relative with the Ecstasy/MDMA and its consequences
has been preoccupied with I-don't-care-what-else
and so I am not the focus of that relative's attention.

The relative turning my way now
is the drama queen who periodically threatens that
they don't think they can live with the way that things are anymore.

The signals coming my way are
"no more mister nice guy."
Like I ought to be surprised?
It is typical of this relative
to put noisy threats out.

Earlier this month,
an exchange of e-mails took place
between me and a bank administrator,
all very civil and no resistance or hostility.
But the e-mails did reference the operatic relative
who did not make direct contact with me.

"Periodic" is the clearest way I can describe the pattern
that has been established for these behaviors.
There will be a temporary period of intense attention-seeking
and when the period inevitably ends,
an indefinite period of silence.
This alternating pattern has been maintained
for a good thirty years.

The signs are that the moment has arrived
for some more passive-aggressive hostilities.

My own conclusion is that peace is the thing, at this point,
for which sacrifices and efforts are worthwhile.
The old relationship, on the other hand,
is not worth fighting for.

Thanks for listening.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 04:55 PM

Have you looked at how family of borderline personality folks stay afloat? That pattern sounds quite familiar; it can absorb everything if you allow it to capture your boundaries.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 20 Aug 18 - 05:06 PM

looked where?

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 08:51 AM

keberoxu
You are not your brothers' keeper.

Even with a strong will and stamina you can't help people who don't want help. Or worse, they accept help and misuse it, and sap what energy you have.

As one ex-girlfriend pointed out to me people gravitate towards the familiar. Your task is to recognise when your familiar is beneficial or otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Aug 18 - 09:10 AM

Keb--

Not saying it IS borderline personality disorder. Def not saying you should allow closer contact or try to help. But you may be able to glean more possible self care strategies among links here:


Google search: borderline personality family coping

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 06:22 PM

The drama plods on. I'm keeping my head down as much as I can,
and keeping myself to myself.

A warning came my way, though, that
I can expect something in the post.
And it is going to be a passive-aggressive gesture.

In the past I have literally done
"refused, return to sender" with mail from this person.
May have to do it again -- since I know better than to touch it,
whatever it is.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 09 Sep 18 - 09:44 PM

"Refused, return to sender" is an excellent way to deliver a message. I've used it a couple of times myself.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 10 Sep 18 - 04:02 AM

I agree Stilly.
Don't engage keberoxu, protect yourself and return the thing unopened, or sling it in the dustbin.
Sending you strong and steady thoughts!

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 08 Oct 18 - 08:01 PM

I owe you all an update. Thanks for the encouraging responses.

Nothing has arrived in the mail from the person in question.

There was one other thing I did. Didn't tell you about it before now.

Recently, I heard from the bank administrator who
had e-mailed me about my relative.
I mentioned this a few posts back on this thread.

It turned out, that the relative I am talking about
did not want to send anything to me directly
( and with reason, as I have done
Return To Sender with this relative in years past,
so the relative knows to expect this from me)

so the relative, or maybe it was the relative's representative,
contacted this banker and asked if
the banker would ask me if it was all right
if the relative sent me something through the financial institution.

So we are getting more and more indirect and passive/aggressive here,
I guess.

Accordingly,
I sent an e-mail, not long ago,
to the bank officer who has been politely sending me e-mails.
And I said:

Look, I have no idea what my relative wants to send me.
I know nothing about the contents, and to me
the contents are no big deal anyhow.
But I have this to warn you about, I said to the officer:
I am aware that this relative has a certain intent,
and the person intends me no good.
There has been contact a while back that was respectful,
and the content was all right.
But recently my relative has had a change of intent
and now it is about manipulating and power plays.

I concluded my message to the bank officer saying,
I reckon that you all would rather not get pulled into the middle
of all this anyway.
I have yet to contact my legal counsel about this;
I am just telling you what I know
and what I expect here.
I am prepared to go
to the postal inspector and/or the authorities
should you ship/pass along something to me
in which no good is intended, and that I object to.


So. I did all that, since my last post to this thread ...

the bank officer did not send a response e-mail...

and nothing has shown up in the post.

Maybe it is safe to exhale?
Thanks for letting me talk about this.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 04:35 AM

Oh well done keberoxu! It's the only way forward - refusing to engage or accept any contact by any means whatsoever.
It is indeed passive-aggressive, and just their way of rattling your cage.
You've done the right thing in my humble opinion.
Stay strong and don't waiver. They'll get the message eventually.
Dew yew keep a-troshing mawther!

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 Oct 18 - 07:41 AM

I agree.

It sometimes happens that a toxic person's life deals them (out of your vision) just the right lesson that they needed to find their way to health. They often then have a desire to make amends-- before realizing their need may cause more harm than balm.

It's important to remember that, in the event that is ever their intention-- however grand that might be FOR THEM-- they can never catch up to where you've had to grow. They can never be a partner in any kind of relationship until your own healing is complete and, even then, it can never be close to equal. Their next (healthiest) step will always be to hear "no".

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 03:54 PM

It would have been a better option, this year,
to revive my old thread
and keep the focus on my feelings and my coping strategies,
rather than open a new thread
about the external stimuli which trigger same.
Too late to take that back,
however the new thread can be released to
its inevitable outcome,
while the coping and the triggers are considered here instead.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jan 20 - 06:16 PM

Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 04:43 PM

My attorney once brought up the subject of survivors' guilt,
or is it survivor's guilt,
and she might have a point there.

Until recently I would have denied this,
however it wants looking at, I suspect.

A lot of presumptions give way with careful consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Jan 20 - 09:07 PM

I've never needed an attorney. Maybe that's the thing.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Jan 20 - 11:18 AM

Mudcat member michaelr pointed out -- not in an aggressive way,
just stating the facts --
that my posts/threads have the quality of
someone talking to themselves,
and yes, it did strike a nerve.

The point, as usual, was valid and well taken, regardless.
It must have come as little surprise to michaelr when
my response to his statement
completely proved his point,
demonstrating that interactions with others
expose all my lacks, shortcomings, and character defects.
In short, michaelr was / is right about me.

That's the most I can offer at this point.
If I make any progress,
most likely others will see it before I see it.

Subject: RE: BS: stay afloat while others don't
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Jan 20 - 02:23 PM

Beginning the process of application for
admission to treatment.
No, I'm not in crisis, nor am I suicidal.

But I have spent years maintaining on anti-depressant meds,
and if not going downhill,
then have got stuck.
May go downhill if I don't have help getting unstuck.

the place to which am applying is a really good institution.
That means much preparation is in order.
Their admissions dept needs input from
the physician who writes the prescription for my anti-depressants.
They want to hear from my former counselor, and more:
Since my counselor has more experience than clinical credentials,
I have agreed to consult someone in my area with
really heavy accreditation --
have now met with this person three times,
must return for one more consult.
Then this professional will contact admissions
with "clinical context" about the applicant, me.   
Also this latter professional had a fellowship years ago
at this particular center, and knows how the place functions,
not the case with my former counselor.

I anticipate an ordeal; having said that, what is one more?