BS: Popular views on McCain

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 07:06 PM

Here's how, Rig.

The linchpin of this country is the self-determined choice by free men and women based on educated viewpoints and te best information available to make right decisions.

That's the Jeffersonian ideal, IMHO, and that is the only way democratic processes can work.

If you pollute the wellsprings of that porcess by injecting false information --- even in an underhanded pretense of no-responsibility for others' misinformation -- you are essentially betraying the process.

Saying "this is what people are saying" is no cover for your own willingness to forward bum information, polluting the cognosphere of the democracy and thus distorting its operation.

This is why Crossfire and Fox News are treasonous--not because they say things I disagree with, but because they promote untruth, fear, uncertainty, doubt, and distortions of the world. Why would a man of rationality or conscience wish to aid and abet such treason?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 07:20 PM

"If you pollute the wellsprings of that porcess by injecting false information --- even in an underhanded pretense of no-responsibility for others' misinformation -- you are essentially betraying the process."


                     So are you in favor of silencing MoveOn.org?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 07:58 PM

Rig:

I don't forward data from wild-ass accusers of McCain or Hillary when I look into it and find them to be false. And I usually take te trouble to find out. It's the least I can do. Take responsibility for your own statements and your own multiplying of good orbad information.

If you find MoveOn has promulgated irresponsible or distorted information, take them to task for it with actual facts.

You know perfectly well, I hope, that I cannot shut down anyone; I am a private individual. And I am not in favor of silencing but educating with real facts, and dropping those communications which distort and falsify.

My concern, which you have not answered, is that you see no wrong in forwarding such infpormation even knowing it is false, in the guise of reporting what people say.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 08:16 PM

Gonna have to agree with Amos on this one, Rigs... The 7:45 post I pointed out didn't say that these were the views of others... It reads as if these are your positions... Go back and reread it if you like and I think that what Amos has just stated here is valid...

When Amos posts something from MoveOn he references it... If he posts an op-ed it it referenced... But to say, without refernece, that Michelle Obama has said or written racist things, without the proper disclaimer or reference, makes you the owner of that statement... I don't buy your argument that you were just giving Donuel an example of what others are saying...

Hey, you have a perfect right to think that Michelle Obama is a racist... You can shout it from the rooftops... That's fine... Just don't duck the question if someone asks you for specifics... Okay???

But I still like you... Really...

Bugt Amos has some very valid points here about folks who one one hand want to be seen as up-and-up in terms of acurate information and the problems that such folks cause a democracy from working properly...

This is a tad beyond puffery ot the usual ah-hah gotcha politics of sematics... Its about spreading false information... As I recall this is how we got bogged down in Iraqmire...

Peace...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 09:32 PM

Essentially, the information is not false. I would agree, however, that it's improper to use it, because when I went back to check it out, I found it to be an "undergraduate thesis," which would be even less appropriate than a masters thesis, but the right-wing-religious-wakkos will use it anyway. And that is where this entire discussion started, the way I remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 10:59 PM

The right-wing wackos--not all of whom are religious, by the way--will indeed use this rumor.

But anybody else who spreads the rumor--by citing it without contradiction--is only doing their bidding.

Only a smear artist--the CEO of Smears R US, to pick a purely theoretical example--would do that.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jun 08 - 11:17 PM

ANd, excuse me, but the information is not true, Rig. It is not racist to discuss the problem of racism. That's an inane idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:31 AM

But if you take the text that's being quoted, and you substitute the word "white," everyplace the thesis uses "black," and if you find this offensive, I think it probably is racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 07:39 AM

"The right-wing wackos--not all of whom are religious..."


                They probably have to be religious to be wakkos...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:09 AM

Oh, so now we have to take Michelle's thesis and change the wording to make it racist???

Hmmmmmmmm???

Me thinks the rightie-bloggers need to look into developing other hobbies...

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 08:59 AM

Not necessarily; if you don't find it offensive, it probably isn't racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 09:42 AM

Rig, did you bother to read any part of her thesis?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:19 AM

Yes - I will say this one more time. The allegations of racism are being made by other people on the internet. All I was doing was to point out that they were being made.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: frogprince
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:37 AM

"All I was doing was to point out that [the allegations of racism] were being made."
"This probably has to do with "racism" as we've seen demonstrated by Michelle Obama" (the latter not in quotation in Riginslinger's post).

Is the back-peddling drive on that bicycle worn out yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:54 AM

Rig:

If that is what you meant, it would have been clearer if you had said that, rather than implying it was a fact. That is the slackness of responsibility to which I was referring. I hope you can see the difference very plainly.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:23 AM

This is the original statement:
       "we need to fight racism with racism."

                   This is what I said:
       This probably has to do with "racism" as we've seen demonstrated by Michelle Obama and Reverend Wright. I would take it to mean working against "reverse discrimination" and for an end to affirmative action.



                   This is what Michelle Obama wrote:
"There was no doubt in my mind that as a member of the black community, I am obligated to this community and will utilize all of my present and future resources to benefit the black community first and foremost. "


                   To a lot of people, this sounds racist. How does it sound if you subsitute the word "white" for the word "black?"

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:38 PM

It's unlikely that she would still say "benefit the black community first and foremost".

And more to the point, Obama himself does not believe in this attitude.

The person who cited this has all sorts of games he likes to play. If it's not guilt by association, it's taking something somebody said years ago and trying to hang the person with it. I seem to recollect the same thing was tried with Sen. Byrd---who used to be a KKK sympathizer--decades ago.

In fact, it would not be hard to find something somebody said which a reasonable person now would object to--though it was said by the poster's idol, Hillary Clinton. But this one was said quite recently--and said by her, and not her spouse:   the assassination reference.

It would be refreshing if the poster would start thinking--and realize that the choice is between John McCain and Barack Obama. And John McCain promises no end to the Iraq war but "victory" and believes that the US Constitution set up the US as a Christian state.

And any attempt to drag in some off-the-wall statement---years ago--by Michelle Obama --is nothing but more stale merchandise from the one of the slimier purveyors of those offerings---the CEO of Smears R Us.

It also shows that the poster has no idea what the election is really about---and certainly has no intention of actually standing behind his claimed concern about the encroachment of religion on the public sphere. So his whining about this appears to have been a bit more than slightly hypocritical. Unsurprisingly.

Amazing how desperate he is to justify in his own mind his opposition to Obama.

It's a bit pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:39 PM

But also somewhat amusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 10:51 PM

A college student deciding to support her community, as a priority, is twisted into racism?

Dear god.

It seems to me, good Rig, that your FIRST duty in dealing with statements like this is to look at what the person is saying, in the place and time where they are saying. An ardent desire to help a community is not the same as a bias against some other race.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Jun 08 - 11:44 PM

Yes! And all of that makes sense.

                Except where Ron is trying to make the case that this election is in the process of deciding something important. It's not! I have no respect for either of these candidates, and nothing to gain or lose by supporting--or not supporting--either one of them.

                It looks to me like we've got one sleeze-ball running against another sleeze-ball, and whichever way it turns out, the average American citizen will wind up the loser.

                There is nothing to be gained by trying to make the case that McCain is motivated to make the US a Christian state, while at the same time Obama is trying to court the Christian right to vote for him.

                I think the whole world would be better off if people would just simply take a deep breath, stand back, and make personal commitments on an individual basis to commit themselves to actually wake up and deal with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:19 PM

"Obama is trying to court the Christian Right". More drivel--from the Drivel Unlimited subsidiary of Smears R Us, no doubt.

There are thinking people who are Christians, much as it might pain the poster to admit this. These are people worth appealing to. They are not the "Christian Right"--and they are the ones Obama has a chance to appeal to--and are the ones he is addressing.

Then there are also Neanderthal atheists--who for instance are also against Mexicans, and have a host of other gripes, as well as being easy prey for conspiracy theories..   They are not worth appealing to.   It would not be easy to do so as a thinking person, at any rate--since these people don't think.

It is however interesting that the poster admits he has no idea what the election is about.

That at least is a possible reason for his total cluelessness.

It actually is a hopeless case to try to make certain people think. But, as I said, it's fascinating, if a bit pathetic, that at least one poster is so desperate to justify his refusal to support Obama that he has convinced himself there is no difference between Obama and McCain.   Obviously this poster cannot read.

You can lead the horse to water, but if, after several months of looking at the stream, he doesn't realize it's water......

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 10:48 PM

And now Obama is championing the cause of "states rights" and the death penalty. This guy is the sleeziest slimeball who's ever run in a national election. He makes Richard Nixon look like Mother Teresa.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:33 PM

Rig--

Dear gawd, you come up with some wild ones.

What exactly has he said -- as there's nothing Google could find -- that led you to that conclusion? Or is this another one of those "forward the hate" things you are so fond of?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 25 Jun 08 - 11:41 PM

Aw, Rig, I misspoke. I apologize.

"CHICAGO (AP) Ñ Democrat Barack Obama said Wednesday he disagrees with the Supreme Court's decision outlawing executions of people who rape children, a crime he said states have the right to consider for capital punishment.
"I have said repeatedly that I think that the death penalty should be applied in very narrow circumstances for the most egregious of crimes," Obama said at a news conference. "I think that the rape of a small child, 6 or 8 years old, is a heinous crime and if a state makes a decision that under narrow, limited, well-defined circumstances the death penalty is at least potentially applicable, that that does not violate our Constitution."
The court's 5-4 decision Wednesday struck down a Louisiana law that allows capital punishment for people convicted of raping children under 12, saying it violates the Constitution's ban on cruel and unusual punishment.
The ruling spares the only people in the U.S. under sentence of death for that crime Ñ two Louisiana men convicted of raping girls 5 and 8. It also invalidates laws on the books in five other states that allowed executions for child rape that does not result in the death of the victim.
Obama, the likely Democratic presidential nominee, said that had the court "said we want to constrain the abilities of states to do this to make sure that it's done in a careful and appropriate way, that would have been one thing. But it basically had a blanket prohibition and I disagree with that decision."
Obama has long supported the death penalty while criticizing the way it is sometimes applied.
As an Illinois legislator, he helped rewrite the state's death penalty system to guard against innocent people being sentenced to die. The new safeguards included requiring police to videotape interrogations and giving the state Supreme Court more power to overturn unjust decisions.
He also opposed legislation making it easier to impose the death penalty for murders committed as part of gang activity. Obama argued the language was too vague and could be abused by authorities.
But Obama has never rejected the death penalty entirely. He supported death sentences for killing volunteers in community policing programs and for particularly cruel murders of elderly people.
"While the evidence tells me that the death penalty does little to deter crime, I believe there are some crimes Ñ mass murder, the rape and murder of a child Ñ so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment," he wrote in his book "The Audacity of Hope.""

---

So there's his position. Raping a five-year old should be punishable by death should the individual states so decide.

And, the Supreme Court should not dictate its opinion to the states on this point.

And in your view, this makes him a slimeball, because why? States rights should not extend to capital crimes? There should never be any capital crimes? What is your beef, exactly?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:18 AM

I don't know how this plays with the Daily.Kos crowd, but the death penalty is a stupid proposition for any kind of crime, in my opinion. If they didn't want a decision from the Supreme Court, they shouldn't have asked for a decision from the Supreme Court.

               In any event, I'll be looking for a different candidate to vote for in November.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 10:33 AM

Well, you've made that pretty clear from the outset, Rig.

As to the death penalty, while I am inclined toward your sentiments, I see no reason Obama should be looked down on for having an equally thoughtful opinion about the dividing line between the Federal and the State jurisdictions. He's not on the Supreme Court or trying to be.

Facing really heinous crimes against the defenseless members of society is noty an easy task, for sure. Maybe the ultimate hard job.

More than any other reason, because there is no deep understanding of the mechanisms that bring it about, of what a mind is and why it breaks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:12 AM

At the end of the day, it costs the taxpayers more money to execute these people than it does just to keep them in jail, if there are no other good arguments against it.

             It will be interesting to see what Obama has to say about the DC gun ruling.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:49 AM

Chongo is gonna blow him clean out of the water.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 01:42 PM

That will be helpful!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 09:17 PM

"I'll be looking for a different candidate in November."   Well, since that poster will not be supporting Obama--which is the only way to keep McCain out, it's nice to know we won't be hearing any whining from him on any policy a President McCain might put into place, if by some chance he is elected.

Wow, 4 years of no complaining about the terrible things religion does in the public sector--sure to be even more obvious with the staunch Supreme Court justices a President McCain would pick. Or griping about anything else McCain does.

To hear no complaining from one particular source makes it almost worthwhile to have President McCain.

But not quite.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 09:18 PM

Hillary stole my cookie. Those Clintons never give up.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 26 Jun 08 - 11:13 PM

They're persistent!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 11:59 AM

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in Air- in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it-'
publicly.' He hasn't made those calls, Bob."

AN interesting defense against the media backlash stimulated by General Clark's comments can be found here.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 12:04 PM

(THis would be really droll if it were not so bleeding tragic; excerpt from an analysis of the Religious Right's attack strategies in support of McCain this season.):

"But this election, the theocrats have a twofer. Michelle Obama. Racism and sexism. What a combination. Although fundamentalists once did a good job of using the Bible to support racism (children of Cain and all), they can't use God to support that kind of bias anymore. Too much backlash.

But they can make a case that God hates uppity women.

They're already working on it.

A professor of Christian theology from Louisville's Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the Southern Baptist Convention's flagship seminaries, showed the way at a Texas Bible Church a week ago. The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Protestant denomination in the country and a powerful voice for evangelicals.

One reason men abuse their wives is that women rebel against their husband's God-given authority, said Professor Bruce Ware. Women are sinners who want their own way instead of desiring to submit to their husbands..

"And husbands on their parts, because they're sinners, now respond to that threat to their authority either by being abusive, which is of course one of the ways men can respond when their authority is challenged--or, more commonly, to become passive, acquiescent, and simply not asserting the leadership they ought to as men in their homes and in churches," Ware said from the pulpit of Denton Bible Church in Denton, Texas," wrote Rob Allen.

Here is a summation of Professor Ware's 10 reasons that God gave men power over women from Denny R. Burk, an assistant professor of New Testament at Criswell College in Dallas.

1. The order of creation, with the man created first, indicates God's design of male headship in the male/female relationship (Gen 2; 1 Tim 2:13).

2. The means of the woman's creation as "out of" or "from" the man bears testimony also to the headship of the male in the relationship (Gen 2:23; 1 Cor 11:8).

3. While both man and woman are fully the image of God (Gen 1:26-28), yet the woman's humanity as "image of God" is established as she comes from the man. Adam names her "isha" (woman) because she was "taken out of ish (man)" (Gen 2:23; cf. 5:3).

4. The woman was created for the man's sake or to be Adam's helper (Gen 2:18, 20).

5. Man (not woman) was given God's moral commandment in the garden; and woman learned God's moral command from the man (Gen 2:16-17).

6. Man named the woman both before and after the entrance of sin (Gen 2:19-20, 23; 3:20).

7. Satan approached the woman (not the man) in the temptation, usurping God's design of male-headship (Gen 3; 1 Tim 2:14).

8. Although the woman sinned first, God comes to the man first, holding him (not her) primarily responsible for their sin (Gen 3:8-9; Rom 5:12-19; 1 Cor 15:22).

9. The curses on the man and woman indicate the fundamental purposes for which each was created, respectively (Gen 3:16-19).

10. The Trinity's equality and distinction of Persons is mirrored in male-female equality and distinction (1 Cor 11:3).

To anyone not indoctrinated into fundamentalist thinking, Ware's reasoning may seem laughable. But not to Professor Burk. He's impressed that Professor Ware used verses from Genesis and the New Testament.

Sure Jesus brought Good News, but women didn't get released from the curse. No, sir. Not them. Professor Ware showed good Biblical grounding in making that point clear.

Ware's reasoning is weak gruel, but the many quotations from the Bible floating around in it make it good, solid food to a lot of Religious Right evangelicals. Remember Ware isn't some yahoo pontificating during coffee break. He's a respected Biblical scholar, an expert in Christian theology, standing in a pulpit. He'll have plenty of yahoos ready to repeat his reasoning.

You can see how it will play out.

Michelle Obama is nobody's little woman, keeping quiet, searching her husband's face to know what she ought to say, as God intended her to be. So she can't be a godly woman..

As for Barack Obama, there are only two options for a man who doesn't control his wife.
Even the fundamentalists aren't likely to say that Obama beats her. So he must be a wimp.

Who wants a wimp for president?"

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:00 PM

re. Clark-
Here's the whole thing
BOB SCHIEFFER: How can you say that John McCain is untested and untried, General?

CLARK: Because in the matters of national security policy making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents and it's a matter of being held accountable.

John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in the armed forces, as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And he has traveled all over the world.

But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded—that wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle this publicly? He hasn't made that calls, Bob.

SCHIEFFER: Well, General, maybe—could I just interrupt you?

CLARK: Sure.

SCHIEFFER: I have to say, Barack Obama has not had any of those experiences, either, nor has he ridden in a fighter plane and gotten shot down. I mean...

CLARK: Well, I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.


Swiftboating? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:26 PM

And Clark thinks that Obama has???

Most impressive thing about McCain's service record is that in particularly trying circumstances when offered an easy way out he put others before himself and stuck to his principles. That to me indicates a person that when faced with a tough decision will come through, will deliver, will not take the easy option and pander to the vagaries of popular opinion. Providing leadership has got nothing whatsoever to do with popularity.

The more I see of Barak Obama the more I see an extremely weak and superficial populist.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:30 PM

Teribus:

Perhaps you are projecting. He's a populist, you're right about that.

He is neither weak nor superficial. My suspicion is that he understands the subterranean world of politics better than you do.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 01:37 PM

Amos, some people worship god, some worship google. I worship the 3 great truths. Your version, my version and the truth.

For the fundamentalists to go after Michelle is expected I suppose.
Maybe they will start calling her Lilith. Most likely some of the sheep will follow but the easiest slur and accusation they might make will be unsubstantiated drug use. You see McCains wife has already come clean about her descent into drug abuse. Michelle might be left wide open to such swiftboating.

right wing readers...
you will forget ever reading this
you will forget ever reading this
you will forget ever reading this

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 01 Jul 08 - 05:31 PM

McCain criticizes Obama's high court favorites

4 hours ago

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) — Republican John McCain said Tuesday that his Democratic rival's Supreme Court nominees would produce more decisions like the child rapist ruling that both presidential candidates have criticized.

Addressing the National Sheriff's Association, McCain acknowledged that Democrat Barack Obama had also disagreed with the decision that struck down a Louisiana law allowing capital punishment for people who rape children under 12. Obama said he believed carefully crafted state laws permitting execution of child rapists do not violate the Constitution.

Nevertheless, McCain asked: "Why is it that the majority includes the same justices he usually holds out as the models for future nominations?"

"My opponent may not care for this particular decision, but it was exactly the kind of opinion we could expect from an Obama court," the Arizona senator said.

When asked by CNN in May whether any current justices would be models for his nominees, Obama replied that he considered Stephen Breyer, Ruth Bader Ginsburg and David Souter to be sensible judges. All three voted in the majority in the child rape case, as did Justices Anthony Kennedy and John Paul Stevens.

McCain himself voted to confirm four of the five who voted in the majority. He was not in the Senate in 1975 when Stevens was confirmed.


McVane changes direction so often that they should be able to attach a generator and help get some non-polluting power out of all that rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 08:47 AM

And, of course, Oh Bummer generates so much hot air he must be one of the major sources of global warming.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 10:54 AM

His generator is a tenth the horsepower of yours, Rig. Can't you stay out of the ad hominem loop for ten minutes straight? What is the matter with you? You're posting like a pimply skateboarder with an AOL account and too many Macburgers in his blood.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 11:25 AM

"His generator is a tenth the horsepower of yours, Rig."


               But he has 100 times the number of exhaust leaks.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 12:35 PM

And no one cares to comment on this...I guess you'd call it a pre-emptive attack on the possibility that Obama , if elected, would appoint Supremes that would pass legislation that Obama has said he's opposed to?

As opposed, I guess, to the kind of court that McCain would vote to confirm? Ooops..this IS the court that McCain voted to confirm (at least the five who decided against the things that both candidates seem to disapprove of.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 01:53 PM

Yes, it's sad we have candidates who will only say what they think the public wants to hear instead of saying what they think, and apparently the pawns on the ground in both campaigns think the public wants to hear the same thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:05 PM

Hey, Rig, it's just a huge marketing scheme. Of course they are saying what they think the public wants to hear! How else can they sell the product effectively? ;-)

The "product" is guaranteed to last exactly 4 years...unless it suffers a main system failure. In that case you can replace it with the VP add-on module. What a deal, eh? And you get TWO (count 'em), TWO great options to choose from...one in red, one in blue...

One quacks like a duck. The other waddles like a duck. They are both bottom feeders. And THIS is what they call "democracy"!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 02 Jul 08 - 02:23 PM

And that's the way it is, but nobody says we have to like it!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,The Ancient Mariner
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 01:19 PM

As someone who has been around since before WWII began, I hate the current tendency to see and comment on the political world in mere "sound bites." It affects too many lives and is too profound a force to be taken so lightly by so many.

I feel no great connection to either candidate. I suspect I am far from alone in that. The best and the brightest we have go into business, not politics. That sad reality has never been more evident than now. Most accomplished leaders would not subject themselves and their families to the extreme scrutiny and the dirty tricks inherent in election politics. I think that is a damned shame. This is why:

I think Mr. Obama is very telegenic, but an "empty suit" with sterling presentation skills and an over-abundance of ego. Where he usually falls short is in dealing with hard questions "off script." He is the classic chameleon. He puts his wet finger in the air and crafts another carefully scripted response to the new direction of the wind. I think he could well be elected, but I think most who vote for him either do not really know him or what he stands for or are doing so along purely partisan lines. He is woefully inexperienced for what he potentially faces, but some may actually see that as a benefit. Woe unto them, for the consequence of that inexperience could well be chaos.

Mr. McCain, son of a celebrated WWII Admiral and a noted prisoner of war who endured much torture and anguish, is sincere, but uninspiring. I do not impugn his honesty, but he is not a galvanizing or charismatic leader. Moreover, I think his own ego gets in the way of common sense far too often. He seems to lack focus and a central theme that resonates. I still have profound respect for his service, most particularly the way in which his conduct, under extreme duress, helped fellow prisoners to endure and survive.

The U.S., and the world, need leadership with integrity, that transcends petty politics and is willing to do the right thing for the greater good, even if it means being unpopular in certain quarters. Perhaps McCain can rise to that, as some others have done in the Presidency. I can only be hopeful.

I saw a bumper sticker that pretty well sums up the attitude of many, "VOTE NO FOR PRESIDENT!"

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: heric
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:31 PM

Dishing the dirt on Obama has led nowhere after a couple of years.

Dishing the dirt on McCain (with decades of material to use) has led nowhere.

I've decided that McCain is not a maniacal, ignorant warmonger. He is not George Bush.

I've decided that Obama is not a fluffy puppet. He's not a racist or closet Muslim.

I won't listen to those allegations any further. We only have a few months left, and look at the issues we should assess.

The global economy is going in the toilet, with US leading the way. The dollar is eroding and we may lose its preferred status in global trade, causing us a lot more harm. Inflation is coming and inflation cannot be quickly eradicated. Boomers are about to start retiring in droves with almost no real savings and mostly without proper pensions.

We have two "wars" not under control, and higher-than-normal instability in the Middle East.

Income and wealth disparities are much higher than ever and are deteriorating further. Health care coverage problems are deteriorating even further.

Neither Obama nor McCain can fix any of these things. They would both agree that they are all bad. Which one could be most effective in pushing the government and private machinery to resist these processes / developments? That's the question as I see it, stripped away from inspirational rhetoric or special interest pandering. All else is diversionary (-especially (a) consideration or discussion of racism, and (b) consideration of how to make people in Iran or England or Bulgaria say nice things about us. – Both of those tracks are roads to nowhere.)

I agree with the Ancient One, immediately above, that the U.S. wants a leader with integrity to transcend petty politics and do the right thing for the greater good. As far as I can tell, either Obama or McCain might try to do that. One of them might even do it with some degree of success (after repaying their political obligations, and probably with the exception of judicial appointments.)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 03:55 PM

Mister Obama is (understandably) trying to be very careful in choosing what he says and does while seeking election. If he intends to GET elected, he has no choice but to tread warily, because the guttersnipes and trolls and slime-merchants have demonstrated that they do not care for or about virtue or intelligence; they care about generating shock, restimulation, fear, and other base emotions.

My belief at this time is that he is doing pretty well for his first time in a national campaign, performed well against Hillary and is doing well against old man McCain. But he knows too well that one foot put wrong (the Dean shout comes to mind, for example) can result in catastrophic setbacks.

I believe that if he is elected, as I hope and believe he will be, the pressure of having to win approval from as many people as everly possible will be replaced with the pressure to generate a positive path of action and sell it to Washington and the country. It seems to me we will then see the best he has to show the world and it will be a major improvement.

I could be wrong, of course, as many people here will hastent o inform you, should you ask. It happened once before.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 03 Jul 08 - 10:49 PM

Amos - And which one time did it happen before?