What's a Gael?

Subject: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:23 AM

What is a Gael?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 07:37 AM

It is a day so windy that it blows your letters out of order.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:01 AM

Strupag, considering that you describe yourself as a Scotsman living in Scotland, I'm wondering why you would ask such a question?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 08:30 AM

As I understand it (and I'm sure others will correct me)a Gael is a person who speaks a language from the goidelic sub-branch of the Celtic languages i.e. Manx, Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic.

A Celt I believe speaks a language from the brythonic sub-branch of the Celtic languages i.e. Welsh, Breton and Cornish.

The goidelic sub-branch is the older version of the language, a form also known as q-Celtic on account that (to take Irish as an example) cúig, five and cuathir, four begin with a hard "c" sound as compared to the younger p-Celtic languages (i.e. brythonic languages) where (to take Welsh as an example) pump, five and pedwar, four begin with a "p" sound. This q/p distinction is one of the distinctive features of the differences between the two sub-branches.

I should imagine that the terms Gael or Celt may still be applied to those who do not speak the Celtic languages as long as they live in areas where such languages are widespread, or feel that they have more affinity with their Celtic brethren, as opposed to their English or French speaking neighbours. However, this is only my opinion!

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:48 AM

Yes Guest,
In other threads I've been proud to inform that I'm a Scot living in Scotland and this is precisely why I fond the whole thing even more confusing.
Does one become a Gael when they have learned the language to a certain standard?
Is a non Gaelic speaking person of Gaelic speaking parents a Gael?
Is it more an attitude that makes one a Gael.
As there was a great merger of Gaels (Scots to their enemies) and Picts in previous centuries, are those of Pictish blood excempt from ever becoming Gaels?
Are Nordo Gaels a less pure version of Gael?
I've no problem in knowing what a Gael was but my original question is in the present tense.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 09:57 AM

The Gaelic Mac (son of) in Welsh originally Mab shortened to Ap.
I wonder if the Latin Equus and Greek Hippos represent a similar shift.
All the best PP

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:29 AM

Here is the US, we have a love of acronyms. One of my personal favorites is KISS-keep it simple, stupid.

A Gael is a person of Gaelic ancestry, regardless of where they reside or what languages they speak.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:34 AM

What is "Gaelic ancestry"?
pp

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:40 AM

Someone descended from the community of peoples who spoke/speak the goidelic sub-branch of the Celtic languages i.e. Manx, Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic, and inhabited Ireland, parts of Scotland, and the Isle of Man for millenia.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:41 AM

Gael is the English spelling of the Gaelic word "Gaidheal". This is the name that this noble race called themselves. Words like Scotti , Celti, Kelti etc. were names given to these people by the Greeks and Romans.
Strupag, as you are using a Gaelic nickname I would guess that you are a Gael. Although my family has been on Cape Breton Island for four generations I still consider myself a Gael.
   Suas leis a Gaidhlig!
            Sandy

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:46 AM

So there is a Gaelic "race" is there.
Stuff and dangerous nonsense, you should no better.
PP

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 10:54 AM

I agree, any claims that the Gaels are a "race" is inherently racist. I also note they were first referred to as a "race" by their English conquerors.

Because of the Gaelic diasporas, people of Gaelic ancestry live in many places around the world, just as people of French ancestry, German ancestry, or any other ancestry do. One's ancestry is not dependent upon one's current residence, or whether one still speaks the language(s) orginally spoken by one's ancestors.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:01 AM

To answer your questions:

"Does one become a Gael when they have learned the language to a certain standard?"

No

"Is a non Gaelic speaking person of Gaelic speaking parents a Gael?"

Yes, if their parents are of Gaelic ancestry. If they are French and Polish ancestry, but learned the Gaelic language (highly unlikely, unless their family resided in a Gaelic or Manx speaking region), then no.

"Is it more an attitude that makes one a Gael?"

No.

"As there was a great merger of Gaels (Scots to their enemies) and Picts in previous centuries, are those of Pictish blood excempt from ever becoming Gaels?"

No, it just means their ancestral background is mixed, as are many peoples.

"Are Nordo Gaels a less pure version of Gael?"

This seems like a racist assumption, best left alone.

Now, have we cleared it all up for you Strupag?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Amos
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:05 AM

Guest Steve,

Many thanks for the erudite exposition. Nuggets of quality like that are much appreciated in the roiling flume of Cat threads!

A

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: cockney
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:06 AM

A sweaty sock

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:12 AM

y do u want to kno?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:14 AM

Guest Steve has it right except that the term 'Celtic' covers both the goidelic and brythonic branches.

I use the adjectives deliberately because once you start using the nouns about people you're on the start of a slippery slope towards racial if not necessarily racist mumbo-jumbo.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:21 AM

mm-u have to mind your p's & q's

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:29 AM

Also anyone in Ireland who is connected with, or a fan of The GAA,[Gaelic Sports] Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:33 AM

My father is Welsh, he and, as far as I know, all his forebears spoke Welsh. My mother is Scots, with nothing but Scot in her ancestry. I have rarely been outside Scotland. I have never been to Wales.
Question - Am I a Celt, a Gael or just British.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:36 AM

What is British?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: greg stephens
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:42 AM

The Gaels called themselves Gaels after they invaded Scotland, but did they call themselves Gaels when they were living in Ireland previous to that? Do we know?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:44 AM

Caesar isn't really a scholar, but he claims in 'De bello Gallico' that the name 'Celt' was how one part of the Gauls called themselves. The Romans called them 'Galli':

tertium qui ipsorum lingua Celti, nostra Galli appelantur

and the third (tribe) are those that call themselves Celts but we call them Gauls

However, the Romans may have extended this name to groups of people who would not have called themselves by this name.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:48 AM

This bullshit gets really tiresome. The reason why the Gaels called themselves Gaels after they "invaded" (though the use of that term hasn't ever been proven--the Gaels have moved between northern Scotland and Ireland for a very long time), is because it was Irish Gaels who did the the majority of moving back and forth between the islands until the time of the Irish plantations. Oddly enough, Irish Gaels spoke Gaelic at home in Ireland as well.

Is it really that hard to figure this out? Why don't some of you pick up a fucking history book.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 11:57 AM

Or a map, for that matter.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

Or a Caman[Hurling stick] or Sliothar [Football]. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:02 PM

Man, are you guys always this caustic?

Geez. What's so funny bout peace love and understanding?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:05 PM

Better still a Strupag (Wee cup of something)

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:05 PM

its the strong draught up scotsmens kilts

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:08 PM

"Man, are you guys always this caustic?"

Some of us do try our best.

"What's so funny bout peace love and understanding?"

Peace, love and understanding can be a helluva lot of fun. However, I sincerely doubt that is the direction the illustrious Strupag had intended this thread to go. Hence, the subsequent caustic remarks.

Apparently you've never been in the middle of a cyber brawl between the pro and anti Gael/Celt camps?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Declan
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:18 PM

Jim,

If you're new around here then Welcome.

It's not always this bad around here but for some reason if anybody mentions Ireland, Irish, Scotland, Scotish, Celtic or Gaelic around here the this obnoxious anonymous guest appears and tries to start a row. Usually some of us are silly enough to respond to the nonsense and we get into useless mud-slinging.

By the way Ard, you're slipping up there a chara ghael. A sliothar is the small ball (hurling)- a football is a caid or a peil, but I'm sure you knew that.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:21 PM

Yes, I am a neophyte here. And no, that doesn't mean i like to sleep with dead people.

I am a mutt... some welsh, irish, british and scots, which I've always thought might explain sometimes my inner turmoils! he he he

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:22 PM

hence Knurr & Pel- [a game- not a PEL]

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

sorry-that should be Knurr & Spell- got PEL's on the brane

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:23 PM

Jim, perhaps you've mistaken this thread for the "Who Are You?" thread? he he he

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Jim Colbert
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:27 PM

Oh yeah: "Yes, I am a neophyte here. And no, that doesn't mean i like to sleep with dead people."


No offense intended if some a ya haggis eaters and peat burners do...

(Och, now we've a wee bit too fur!)

Seriously though, thanks for noting that this isn't the norm.

(Norm? Like, the Normans? Ah thought we were talking about the gaels and celts and picts and jpegs, not the bloody Brits... okay, some photoshop humor there at the end, cause talking about the Picts makes me think of the file format pict, as opposed to, say an eps or a jpeg or... ah, never mind. I'll shut up now.)

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:28 PM

What on earth is caustic about suggesting that someone should lift up a wee cup of tea (an strupag)
I thought the threads were pretty good crack (craic) until that guest(11.48AM) used decidedly Anglo Saxon language and suggested that we put our faith in history books.
I remember when Michael Mara was asked on the radio if he got his love of Scottish history in School. He replied "No I had a Scottish education!"

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:31 PM

Well, there are official history books (those used in schools in every nation on earth I am currently aware of) and then there are history books. Then there is the fondness many in internet chat forums have of making up history as they go, according to the prevailing conversation. That is most of what you find here, BTW.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Declan
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:32 PM

Good one Mr Happy.

So if someone suggests we need a Peil to play a game of Peil Gaelach (Gaelic Football) should we send an eMail to our local TD (MP)?

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: IanC
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:41 PM

Strupag

Which "Anglo-Saxon" language were you referring to?

bullshit is, as far as I know an American portmanteau word, probably invented around the 19th Century.

fuck does not appear anywhere in Anglo-Saxon literature and is thought to have been introduced from Middle Dutch in the mediaeval period.

Though there undoubtedly were Anglo-Saxon words descibing bodily functions, it is hard to know for sure what they were as the monks that recorded the language for the whole of its written life didn't record them.

;-)

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:44 PM

What faith in history books!
I suppose the American ones gave a fair ballanced view of Cuban History and the Soviet Union books told the truth about the US.
There's also the question of what school books never told, for example the highland clearances, the Irish tattie famine, the red clydeside etc.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Declan
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:49 PM

I suppose it depends where you went to school and when. Our History books were full of the famine and battles against the evil British invaders.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 12:55 PM

Declan, Where I come from we played football with a ball made from stuffing paper or rags into an old sock, or, a hanky ball,thus the saying amongst our ragged assembly, "He`s a great man with a hanky ball,only the boune bates him", and a Sliothar was also used, along with a tennis ball, and the odd dead cat. There was no fancy coaches in them days.Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Declan
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 01:14 PM

Ard,

I never noticed too much fancy about Joe Kernan, but he did the job for you last year all right.

I see we'll be meeting again in Croker shortly.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Jan 03 - 02:13 PM

A Gael is a misspelling of Gale which is the name of the honey I used eat at school.

Gimme more Gales honey .. yum yum

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Mr Happy
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 03:49 AM

'What on earth is caustic about suggesting that someone should lift up a wee cup of tea'

at first i misread this sentence as:

What on earth is caustic about suggesting that someone should lift up a tea cup of wee!

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: Strupag
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 05:47 AM

That made me smile Mr H!

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:24 AM

Im a Celtic Orc, the rest is just wind:0)
The honey bit is good though great wiv an elf or two.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 06:28 AM

Yes Declan the Gaels of Armagh and Dublin will gather in their thousands to watch the greatest game in the World, we are looking to this, roll on Feb. Ard Mhacha.

Subject: RE: What's a Gael?
From: GUEST,Davetnova
Date: 10 Jan 03 - 07:13 AM

If I say I'm a Gael am I gaelty of racism?