Dance tunes in minor keys

Subject: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: GUEST,clockwatcher
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:54 AM

I've come to the conclusion that all the best dance tunes are in the major key. I mean, why would anyone want to dance in the minor key ?

Go on, prove me wrong. What great minor-key dance tunes are there in the English/Celtic/American traditions ?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:11 AM

Bacca pipes

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Alan Day
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:14 AM

"Star of County Down" is a lovely Waltz.
Al

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Sorcha
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:21 AM

Road to Lisdoonvarna, Swallowtail Jig

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:24 AM

Have a look in O'Neill's 1001 Gems, hundreds of tunes in minor keys.

eric

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:42 AM

There certainly are plenty of minor tunes, but it is a statistical fact that the British and Irish traditions favour the major key for fiddle tunes. And, also, the arrow of time points inexorably towards the major key; if you clasify tunes according to the ealiest date they appear in publications, or MS tune books, you find that the proportion of minor tunes is greater among the earlier tunes.
    A very obvious example is this: think about the hornpipes you know(if you know any), as opposed to the jigs and reels.I would put good money on the fact that very few, if any, of the hornpipes will be minor:but plenty of the jigs and reels will be. This is because the hornpipe was a musical form that really developed post 1700 say , by which time the ascendancy of the major key was well established, in Ireland as in Britain.Fiddlers were mostly naturally creating in major keys by then.
   I have just had a glance at the last recording I made, which was collection of traditional Cumbrian tunes. There are 31 tunes on the CD, and all but two are major. That is about par for the course.Of course, if you selected tunes for beauty and sadness, for example, you would get a higher proportion of minors.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:42 AM

Rochdale Coconut Dance (Em)
Princess Royal (Em in Bampton tradition)
Abbots Bromley Horndance (Dm)

to name only the most well-known and obvious.
Look in any tunebook.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 08:44 AM

Swallowstail reel ,Drowsy Maggie,Banish misfortune atholl highlanders,[switchesbetween Major and Mixolydian]Cheif Oneills favourite,again switches between modes.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: TheSnail
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:12 AM

Brothers in York, Jacky Tar, both of which are in the Lewes Favourites tune book.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: clueless don
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:16 AM

I haven't researched this, but off the top of my head I came up with two minor key (or maybe dorian?) hornpipes: the minor key "Peacock's Feather" (not to be confused with the major key Peacock's Feather), and the very well known "The Rights of Man". I'm sure there are oodles (the technical term) of others.

Don

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:20 AM

Nonesuch is good in major or minor; alternating by way dramatic contrast, or a bit of both in between times...

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 09:47 AM

Clockwatcher,most of the tunes are in the following modes,Dorian [flat3 flat7]Mixolydian[flat 7]Aeolian[flat3,flat7 flat 6]and major[ionian],they are not in minor keys.
there are two minor keys Harmonic and melodic which were you referring to.
they may be harmonised with minor or [modal chords,dyads comprising notes 1 and 5].
many interesting tunes have one section in the major and another in the dorian,or other combinations.
here is a set dance Rodneys Glory,that is a wonderful dance but it is not in the major key. Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:07 AM

GREGSTEPHENS.Cheif O neills[not staightforward major] ,Rodneys Glory,Tomgraney Castle ,Rights of Man
Clockwatcher,Morrisons [edorian],TriptoKillavil[e dorian],mugof brown ale[a dorian],Lilting Banshee[a dorian]and so on ad infinitum.
the whole point when playing for dancing or anything else,is to mix your sets key wise, adorian to a g major tune, e dorian to a d major tune.
playing in major keys particuarly the sameone[some fools insist in playing in C major all the time]it gets monotonous.
likewise when I plan a gig ,Iconsider changes of tempo and changes of key as well as variety of subject matter.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 10:49 AM

Captain Birdseye: I know there are lots of minor key tunes. I play loads myself. What I was pointing out is that they are in a minority, and as time progressed from 1600 to 1900 they became even more of a minority. As evidenced by the fact that the more modern tunes(hornpipes) had a higher proprtion of major key tunes than did jigs or reels.
As an example, I have just counted up the O'Neill hornpipes. I may have overlooked one or two, I did it quickly, but as far as I can see there are 150 hornpipes in the book.
9 A minor
2 E minor
1 G minor.
All the rest are major(138).(I am, by the way, only judging by O'Neill's versions. For example, you refer to the variable third in Cheif O'Neill's Favourite, which is how we all play it now. But he notated it with a major third throughout).
That is definitely a huge majority of major tunes.If you fancy counting up the jigs or reels, feel free!
I would think the preponderance of major is even greater in England(at any given date), because the big swing from minor to major occurred substantially(a century?) earlier in England.
    Nowadays, on the session and recording scene, there has of course been something of a swing back to more "archaic" otr "interesting" tunes, which has shifted the balance a little bit back in the minor direction. But major tunes are still hugely in the majority, in Irish or British sessions.
   Incidentally,Captain, "minor" is perfectly standard usage for the aeolian and dorian modes, to distinguish them from the ionian and myxolydian. You personally may not term the dorian mode a minor key, but usage is against you there I think, in traditional music circles.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM

I think Greg's hit the nail on the head

Major tunes are the majority
Minor tunes are minority
Modal tunes are outmoded
Dorians are a "gray" area if you get the picture

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:35 AM

And put the Ionian ones in a different column?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:40 AM

but there are also lots of irish polkas,[modern tunes] that are not in the major key.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: quantock
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:58 AM

I don't have a huge number of minor tunes in my repertoire, but I love the ones I play. They add so much partly because of the variety they bring. If you use diatonic instruments like melodeons, keys are limited and it can get pretty boring if everything is in Gmaj or Dmaj.

The morris tune Idbury Hill is a good one.

I play one of the tunes from the Thomas Hardy collection called "Dribbles of Brandy" that is minor.

I currently live in the US, and play some of the American Old Time Tunes. In that tradition, there are some great ones such as:
Cold Frosty Morning, Elziks Retreat, Pagan Rite, Bank of Flowers.

There are thousands more (reminds me of a song!) of course that I don't currently play. I am working on that.

Variety is the spice of life.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 12:37 PM

I'd hazard a guess that in the U.S. minor or non-major modal tunes play a greater role in the dance scene than in the U.K., and more of a role than they used to. Certainly hornpipes (even when played as reels) are less in evidence here (in the U.S.) than they used to be, in contrast to the U.K. The growth in integrating southern old-time tunes into the dance repertoire means there are more modal tunes... I'm not at home where I could take a look at a modern book... The contrast between American contra dance style and English ceilidh style is not only in the dances, but the tunes, of course.

Here's a good page that compares the two sides of the pond, if you haven't already considered the topic: Bob Archer's "English / American dancing - a comparison".

~ Becky in Tucson

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 01:20 PM

The melodic minor scale is the same as the natural minor with the exception that the sixth and seventh tones are raised by a semitone (half step) when the scale is ascending. When the scale is descending, the melodic minor is the same as the natural minor, e.g.:
C, D, E-flat, F, G, A, B, C (ascending)
CThe harmonic minor scale
The harmonic minor scale has just one tonally effective mode and that is the scale conventionally known as the harmonic minor scale. It is spelled, in numerical form (relative to the major scale):

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Notes
, B-flat, A-flat, G, F, E-flat, D, C (descending)
Greg Stephens.you and your friends are using incorrect terminology,as I stated the tunes you call minor are in fact in the dorian mode .Checkout Junior crehans hornpipes[modern compositions,they are in modes other than major]
Clockwatcher.there are loads of tunes that are not exclusively in the major key,they are mixolydian,Dorian, aeolian,and sometimes mixtures of major and others.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:13 PM

Gilderoy and Paddy on the Turnpike are fine dance tunes in a minor mode.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 04:17 PM

The Parson's Farewell, from Playford. King of the Fairies. From the Scottish collection The Scolding Wives of Abertarff.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:47 PM

The Dorian mode is a minor mode. Standard usage. No "Gray" area about it at all. Point for Mr. Stephens.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:51 PM

point taken.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 05:57 PM

Anniversary Waltz (Oh how we danced on the night we met)
Hava Nagila

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 06:12 PM

It's very common practice in Scottish dances to play a set of four tunes, three in major modes and one (usually the second or third) in a minor mode. Numerically less than 25% of the tunes in the repertoire may be in minor modes but they are played disproportionately often.

Breathnach did some counting of the British Isles repertoires and concluded there was no national difference in the representation of the four common modes. (As I've said in several places, I don't think that would still hold if you looked at the use of gapped scales; significantly more gaps in Scottish tunes than in English or Irish ones).

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Rowan
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 07:23 PM

Lannigan's Ball, Tenpenny Bit, Woodland Revels, Power Waltz

just out of one bracket.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:41 PM

Actually, Hava Nagila uses a major scale with a flatted 2nd, flatted sixth, and dominant 7th.
E-F-G#-A-B-C-Db-E is common. Forget the name of the scale right now--

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: John J
Date: 04 Dec 07 - 11:46 PM

Bear Dance tune?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Rowan
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:44 AM

Kid on the mountain, The butterfly, The cuckoo's nest

From another bracket

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:55 AM

I didn't know that - I just thought it starts witha minor chord. Is what shall we do the drunken sailor a hornpipe? is it in a minor key?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:01 AM

Hava Nagila uses two different scales, as is common in Middle Eastern music. The main part uses the scale known in Arabic music as "hijaz" (D Eb F# G A Bb C D). Can't recall what the bridge does right now.

Americans use "On a Bank of Flowers" as a *dance tune*? Good grief. What next, boogie on down to Barber's Adagio?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:02 AM

Anyone said Road to Lisdoonvana.
One of my favourite American square dance tunes, so much so that when we were in Co. Clare after the Willie Clancy week we went took the road, and found a town that time forgot.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: GUEST,30 buttons
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:02 AM

There are bazillions of great dance tunes in minor keys. Playing Tam Lin always gets a rise out of dancers.

And nothing gives a lift to contra dancers like medleys that switch from a minor to a major tune. In my humble opinion.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: GUEST,The blackbelt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:52 AM

I prefer tunes that switch between major and minor, for example "The butterfly" as I first heard it, played with the C part major (is this a common variant?)

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: GUEST,clockwatcher
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:23 AM

Thanks for all your contributions.

I didn't want to start another 'mode' war - like most people I tend to think of Dorian and Aeolian as being in with the minors, Mixolydian with the majors. I suppose it's down to whether they have a minor or major third, or maybe just the way they sound.

I still think the majors are better at getting you leaping about. Which is not to say there aren't lots of fine minor tunes, of course.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:41 AM

Captain Birsdeye makes a very common(and understandable ) mistake when he says that Irish polkas are modern tunes. Not necessarily. The polka, like the waltz, is a dance that didn't hit Ireland till the 1800's. But, as is often the case, old tunes became used for the new dances. Many, (perhaps most?), of the tunes called "Irish polkas" were not written as polkas, but merely pressed into service for practical use.In fact the generic term "Irish polka" is used to apply to tunes that mostly aren't polkas in the normal sense of the word. The same with waltzes: many of the old country dance bands, in Ireland and Britain, played medleys of waltzes, which contained loads of tunes which long predate the arrival of the dance called the waltz.
    I stand by my theory: statistically, minor tunes gradually went out of fashion in the period 1600 to 1800, in Ireland and in Britain. They didn't vanish, obviously, and people were writing new ones all that time. But they always being out-numbered by even more new major tunes. This continues to the present day in pop music(listen to any chart song radio programme); but in trad circles the minor tunes are making a bit of a comeback as they provide a welcome contrast in tune-sets at sessions.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Mo the caller
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:47 AM

Ah well, if you just want too leap around! (is this where I'm supposed to say LOL so that you don't take it as a personal insult?)

There are other ways of dancing too. All the spine tingling tunes deserve to be danced to, as well as the lively ones.
I've done my share of flinging myself around, but nowadays I need a sprung floor and the right company to get me leaping. A rugby crowd and concrete floor and I'll just smile indulgently (with my earplugs in, probably).

Who was it said "Dance is music made visible"?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:12 AM

Quite a lot of "Irish polkas" are Scottish reels and marches played in different timing. But in most cases they are only a few decades older in their Scottish form - not many before 1800.

Waltzes: they arrived in the British Isles just after the Napoleonic Wars - there was a sudden fad for them among the urban elite. There had been waltzes on the Continent for 30-odd years before, like Mozart's. But it was a long time before anybody was waltzing to anything but Continental tunes - not until the twentieth century. The Continental tunes were typically in major keys with occasional minor episodes. Using minor-key folktunes as waltzes is, as Greg says, a modern phenomenon, but it only took off because those tunes were so well known as songs.

One repertoire where a LOT of minor tunes were created quickly was Highland pipe music after the Crimean War. The oldest repertoire is predominantly Mixolydian heptatonic on A. With the need for medleying and variety that the army gave rise to, you suddenly see thousands of new tunes with other kinds of tonality - about equally major (on D) and minor (on B, or in gapped scales on A omitting the C; less commonly dorian on E). There was a heck of a lot more minor tonality in a military tunebook of 1880 than you'd find in a collection of Highland tunes from the 18th century.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 09:47 AM

The mode/scale of first melody in Hava Nagila , in Klezmer music, is called Freygish or Ahava Raba. Also, sometimes it is called "Altered Phrygian". Not that I want to be nitpicky, but Hijaz has flatted 2nd and flatted 6th only--Sorry, I guess I do like to be nitpicky.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

No wonder the Phyrgians hate us. We altered their scale.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 12:33 PM

We had to alter it--the scale was linked to an Islamic fundamental.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:08 PM

M.Ted: you are wrong. Look at the maqamworld site.

Compare these.

  X:1
  T:Dulab Hijaz
  S:used as an instrumental prelude by Oum Kolsoum
  M:C
  L:1/8
  Q:1/4=90
  K:D Phrygian ^F
     AB    AG     (F2{GF}G2)|(A{B})(G{A}) (F{G})(E{F})  D4        |
     CD    E>F     DE    F>G| E`````F      G2       ({A}G4)       |
  ({A}B2) ({c}B)A  B2    c2 |(d{e})(c{d}) (B{c})(A{B})  G2 ({A}G2)|
     A2   ({B}A)G  A2    B2 |(c{d})(B{c}) (A{B})(G{A})  F2     F2 |
     G2   ({A}G)F  G2    A2 |(B{c})(A{B}) (G{A})(F{G})  E2     E2 |
     D2  ({EA}D)E  F2    G2 |F`````(G{A}) (F{G})`E      D4       |]
  
  X:2
  T:Hava Nagila
  M:C
  L:1/8
  K:D Phrygian ^F
  D2 D3 F(3:2:2E2D|F2 F3 A(3:2:2G2F|G2 G3 B (3:2:2A2G|F2 E/D/E [1 F4:|[2 D4||
  FF2E DD       D2|EE2D CC      C2 |CE2D CC       G2 |F2 E/D/E [1 F4:|[2 D4||
  G4        B4       |G2    B2       A2 G2||\
  G/G/G B>A GB    AG |G/G/G B>A      GB AG |
  A/A/A c>B Ac    BA |A/A/A c>B      Ac BA |\
  A/A/A d2  A/A/A d>D|DD    B/A/G/F/ G4   |]
  

The F is sharpened in both.

The bridge in Hava Nagila keeps the same pitch set but shifts tonal centre to what in Arabic theory is Nahawand on G (more or less G melodic minor). That's a common modulation in Arabic music too. Anybody's guess where the tune itself comes from.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 01:17 PM

In fact the generic term "Irish polka" is used to apply to tunes that mostly aren't polkas in the normal sense of the word.
GregStephens,,
they are polkas in the normal sense of the word ,to those of us living in Cork/Kerry .

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM

I am not doubting that I might be wrong, but I am not clear what I am wrong about--Hava Nagila is in Ahava Raba, or Freygish, and my notes are right--and starting on E, there is no F# in it at all.

If it is the Hijaz makam you are talking about,the turkish makams technically have two names, one for each of pentachords--the scale we're discussing here is Hijaz Rast--the other, which is more or less the Miserlou scale, with the major 7th, is Hijaz Hijaz (except they spell it Hicaz, which I'm sure you know), though for some reason, the upper hijaz pentachord has a different intervalic structure than the lower one.   People call both makams Hijaz.

This is my side of it, at any rate--and I stick by it.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:25 PM

M.Ted:

I gave the hijaz scale on D (not E) and the implication of your reply was that I got it wrong (rather than just not being quite sure what the Jewish name for it was).   So *what* were you saying I got wrong?

You are more likely to see tunes from either Jewish or Arab traditions published in D than in E, so I don't quite see why E comes into it. Hijaz on E would be E F G# A B C D E.

As you say, some names are used both for full makams and for tetrachords, but if someone talks about the *makam* hijaz they only mean one out of the family of possible makams that has hijaz as the lower tetrachord. (Basically the same usage as "major" and "minor" in Western music - a mode that starts with a major tetrachord is a major mode, but if someone mentions *the* major scale they only have one mode in mind).

One other familiar piece that uses the hijaz scale is the second theme in Ravel's Bolero (on C, going C Db E F G Ab Bb C). I presume Ravel thought of it as Spanish, what Spanish names are there for it?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Fidjit
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 03:39 PM

Mr Beverage's Maggot. Playford tune is in Gm.

As was danced on the TV program "Pride and Prejudice"

We've transposed it to Dm (Can't get my fingers round Gm).

Chas

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 04:10 PM

Anybody know why fiddlers had such different fingers around 1700?

There are a phenomenal number of dance tunes from 1650-1750 in G minor, which almost any present-day folk fiddler would prefer to do in A minor or E minor.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:31 PM

Certainly didn't mean to ruffle your feathers, Jack. If I overstepped, I am certainly sorry.--In this cyber-environment, a quick reply, rather than a studied one, is the first reflex. Any Subject that requires precision and detail get short shrift.

As to what Ravel might have called his scale, I cannot say. Flamenco guitarists commonly use both the Phrygian scale and the harmonic minor, and may alter a pitch when changing directions-so there is enough right there.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:00 AM

'There are a phenomenal number of dance tunes from 1650-1750 in G minor, which almost any present-day folk fiddler would prefer to do in A minor or E minor.'

is it possible they tuned their instruments a tone down?

dumb guitarist's idea. or maybe their violins were slightly different in construction?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:21 AM

dance tunes in minor keys,please can we be specific,
these tunes are not in the harmonic or melodic minor,they are in the dorian ,mixolydian and relatively few, are in the aeolian[natural minor].
some gutarists may choose to use minor chords,they could use modal dyads[a matter of taste]but they are not in minor keys.
WLD ,Very likely they did tune down.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:08 AM

Captain Birdseye: you can say they are not in minor keys till you are blue in the face, but the fact is that most people's use of language uses the term "minor keys" for all these scales.You may differ, but you are in a very small minority.Most people, hearing the Mason's Apron and then the Swallow's Tail Reel, would say"aha, a change from A major to A minor". And they would be absolutely right to say so, even though the latter is in the Dorian mode, and not in your "melodic minor". The distinctive feature is the minor third.There is indeed a scale called the melodic minor, and another called the harmonic minor, as you say. There are also scales called the Aeolian minor and the Dorian minor.The melodic minor,the Aeolian minor, and the Dorian minor are all used in traditional dance music, the latter two being historically the most commonly used in the British Isles.(There are also minor scales that do not fit into these categories,Vaughan Williams' version of |Greensleeves for example, but that is a digression). The harmonic minor, as its name implies, is a selection of notes used for harmonising tunes in the melodic minor key; it is not designed for constructing melodies, though it has ben used for that.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:01 AM

Hm....

I think Bert Lloyd would have given you an argument there Greg. He said something like, in his book, that all these modal scales proved we were a really musical nation. Traditional musicians, playing the Lincolnshire bagpipes and such, thought and expressed themselves along those lines.

In a way you are listening with a modern musicians ears.

Careful though, once you start disagreeing with the traddy viewpoint; it really is just the start. Then you really start asking questions.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:26 AM

You misread me, WLD. I am not disagreeing with anything Lloyd says about modes. All I am saying is that is standard English musical usage noowadys to refer to the Dorian mode as a minor scale. No value judgements, just a straight description. Scales with minor thirds are minor, basically.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:28 PM

The point is, WLD--we are all listening with modern musicians ears, and we are all playing from a modern perspective--even when we play "traditional" music, we do it from a modern perspective--like it or not, wherever we end up, we begin with "Standard English Musical Usage"--

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:32 PM

carry on by all means ,why not call a scrambled egg an omelette,why not call a cream puff a jam doughnut.,why not call an appalachian dulcimer a hammered dulcimer.,Why not call a pedant a casuist
The harmonic minor and the melodic minor exist,they are not the dorian or aeolian mode,calling things [in a minor key,just because they could be harmonised with a minor chord or a modal dyad is just a combination of laziness and ignorance]and muddies the waters.
If one consults ones dictionarie ,the dorian mode is in it , start ,these tunes[ninety per cent[of the so called minor are in the dorian mode,if not they are in the Mixolydian or Aeolian],minor key,means nothing as there are Several, harmonic melodic and[ Aeolian, natural minor],plus the Dorian mode.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:19 PM

I really don't like following this dialectic to its conclusion Ted. You do what you want and believe what you want. If you find what you believe affords you the vision for artistic activity, that's the main thing.

I get the feeling from what has been said to me in PMs that what I've been saying about English folk music is grossly offensive to many on Mudcat. I think in conclusion that life's too short to offend people. And to be honest, when one is in a minority, one has to consider the possibility that one is wrong.

But I don't agree with you.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: MaineDog
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:04 PM

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:29 PM

Captain Birdseye: please give it a rest old son. Everybody else in the world but you calls the Dorian mode a minor mode because it contans a minor third. You are literally the only person who does not understand this. Have a little think, in terms you are used to. Whisky in the Jar(well known Irish song).MAJOR.
The Foggy Dew (well known Irish song))MINOR.
ok?

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 08:39 PM

The 1700ish G minor tunes were played on standard fiddles in standard tuning Scordatura tunings were well known and often written in the music; there are many Scottish folk examples, but *the* piece exploiting them was Biber's Rosary Sonatas. If a funny tuning wasn't written in the score we (almost always) know it wasn't expected. The difference must have been one of training, but why I can't imagine.

There are a few tunes that have to seen in Birdeye's way. "The Oyster Wives Rant" a.k.a. "The Black Mill" is one. The upper tetrachord is that of a dorian or mixolydian scale, but the lower tetrachord has a gap where the third ought to be, and there's no apparent reason why it should be seen as being in a dorian (kind of minor) or mixolydian (kind of major) scale. This would not be ambiguous in Arabic music (the motivic structure would classify it) but in western European idiom it is. There aren't a lot of tunes like that.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 12:29 AM

In Arabic, Armenian, Greek, Turkish, Persian etc. music, the modal designations are important, because they contain the rules for how a piece is to be played.

By contrast, the modal terms have been applied to our folk music descriptively--the melodies were not consistantly written to conform to modal rules, and, as Mr. Campin illustrates, there are notable occasions where they don't. Furthermore, they are often not played according to any sort of modal rules, and of course, they are harmonized according to the rules of common musical practice.

Complicating the issue even further, there are melodies in use that have been "regularized" using the rules of common musical practice, while essentially the same melodies can still be found in early forms. Even more confounding, there are contemporary melodies that have been back-formed to fit old styles.

It makes it difficult to keep things sorted in an fashion at all.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Fidjit
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:53 AM

Cor! You lot dun arf know a lot. An't 'arf been some clever bastards.

I play by ear.
Don't read music. Although I know most of the signature signs etc. and when to repeat.

All I meant when I refered to Gm being a bit difficult, was that without using a capo on the guitar the chord shape for my fingers was awkward. Hence transposed to Dm and easy peasy.

I wish I understood what you were all on about. Sound great.

Chas

PS I do understand a bit of it.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 08:12 AM

Greg Stephens,old son.
I shall refer to tutor books I have in my possession,How to play Folk Fiddle by Geoff Bowen ,and DADGAD Guitar Book bySarah Mcquaid,both these tutors refer specifically to tunes as being in Dorian,Aeolian, Mixolydian.,or major.
I am not out Of kilter with the rest ofthe world,But in agreement with people that know their subject.
If you wish to believe that all three of us are wrong,that is your problem.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 09:50 AM

One possible reason for dance tunes in Gm is that they were easier to play on F instruments, such as recorder.

The oldtimers must have been versatile. Looking at the first 15 tunes in Peter Barnes' English Country Dance Tunes, there are tunes in Bb, G, F, A, C, Ab and D. Some of these are the relative minors of the keys I just named.

I have the 1986 edition of this book, and it have given me much pleasure. There is a new edition which can be Googled and purchased by anyone who would like to do the same.pick up an instrument and play it, rather than get into arguments.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 10:07 AM

Charles Burney, "A Genral History of Music", 1789, describing the ancient Greek modes:

It is very remarkable that all the ancient modes or keys were minor, which must have given a melancholy cast to their music in general; and however strange this may appear, it is ac certain as any point cncerning ancient music can be, that no provision was made for a major-key in any of the ancient treatises or systems that have come down to us.

That is, Burney had a sense of "minor" that generically included all 15 of the ancient Greek modes. Many writers since have needed a similar concept (and it's completely irrelevant that somebody writing a beginners' book on folk guitar playing may not). Metonymic extension of the word "minor" provides it. Birdseye doesn't have an alternative, and if he did he wouldn't have a prayer of getting the world to accept it.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Tootler
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 03:08 PM

Captain Birdseye is absolutely correct in what he says, but what he says strictly speaking refers to music based on the tonic - dominant system of harmony; i.e. classical music and music derived from the structures of Western classical music.

Traditional music is not based on this structure but has retained features of older musical forms and slightly different terminology has come to be used, in this case using the term "minor" as a generic term for tunes in modes in which the minor third is a key interval.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Dec 07 - 04:36 PM

Burney wasn't talking about traditional music. You want a notion of "mode where the third is minor but which might not necessarily be the aeolian mode" for art music as well. It's a genre-free concept.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Rowan
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 12:36 AM

The vigour of some of the posts above should make me hesitate but I have a small experience that exemplifies some of the notions about keys, modes and scales, as presented in the various posts.

I was never able to read music but I knocked around with people who could. Some were into singing unaccompanied (by instruments, that is) harmonies and some of us formed a group that was well thought of in such activities. The discussions about resolved and unresolved chords etc enabled me to learn, informally, a fair amount of music theory. I suspect many on Mudcat would have had similar experiences.

After years of unsuccessfully trying to find an instrument I could get to grips with I was staying with a mate (Mike, with whom I sang and who could play mouthorgan pretty well and who was getting on top of 2- and 3-row button accordions) just after he had found a gaudy (Italian white laminex) 20 button C/G anglo concertina in a remote secondhand shop. I picked it up and discovered I could knock out a tune on it. He encouraged me with the comment that it's methodology was similar to a single row melodeon that I'd been given but could never work out how to play; I was away!

Not long after this I acquired a Lachenal 20 button, also in C/G. I sat in on sessions and soaked up tunes like a sponge, having a go at everything and anything; I rapidly learned I could find the notes for some tunes but not for others and this was determined by the "key" of the tune. I couldn't yet tell by ear, which I could attempt with probability of success and which I couldn't but, with Tony playing his A/D/G button accordion in the sessions, I recognised that I could usually play (or learn) tunes that he played on the inside (the "G") row of buttons.

At one session in Canberra, in the middle of a bracket, the tune changed to one I thought I recognised as one I could have a go at, but I couldn't see which row Tony was using. I leaned past Kate, a fiddler of serious mein and vast experience and competence and saw Tony's fingers on the G row of buttons.

"Ah, G!" I muttered.
"A minor!" retorted Kate, without hesitation or dropping a decoration.
But I could play it on my G row and did so.

Now, I knew enough of Imogen Holst's book on music theory to understand that you needed particular notes to ascend a minor scale and other, different ones to descend it. And I knew that the single row melodeon didn't offer such differences in notes but you could still play 'minor' tunes on it. I was stumped.

Until I met Karen, a classical violinist with Conservatorium theory under her belt and who was also into playing traditional fiddle tunes. Karen explained the differences between "keys" as most practitioners of western art music since Bach use the term, "modes" as ethnomusicologists use the term and "scales" as hoi polloi like me use the term. And many of us use them interchangeably, sometimes with great clarity and sometimes with confusion.

The heavies on this thread will probably wince at my attempt to give a simple explanation but faint heart ne'er won fair maid, so here goes.

Before Bach's "Well Tempered Klavier" (probably better interpreted as "Even Tempered Klavier") there was a plethora of scales, usually referred to by us as keys. Many were modal, in that they had the sharpened fourths and flattened sevenths etc etc that enabled them to be classified and named differently. Competent players of fretless fingerboard instruments (eg violins) or ones with moveable frets (eg lutes) could easily play all of these without much trouble. Players of small instruments using fixed pitches (eg winds) could carry several and just swap them as required. Players of keyboard instruments (eg clavichords, organs and pianos) had major problems; if the instrument was tuned correctly in C (and I'll avoid using the term "key" but you'll all know what I mean) the tuning would be perfect for tunes in C, passably acceptable for tunes with one or even two sharps or flats in the signature and progressively worse as there were more sharps or flats. Back fixed all this by making all the notes between octaves equally (or "evenly") "off" the correct note. He then wrote his 48 pieces in every "key" in the western tradition and played them all on the one instrument without retuning between pieces.

At a stroke, he'd solved one problem but introduced the confusion about terminology. While we (with our ears tuned to Bach's mean tempered tuning, now universal in most westerners' experiences of classical and pop music) may talk about playing all the white key notes on a piano from C to C as illustrating the Ionian mode and the white notes from D to D as illustrating the Dorian mode, the heavies among us will know that the actual pitch of the starting note for the Dorian scale is not any D on the piano but a different pitch entirely. Further, the intervals in the Dorian scale (in tuning proper to the Dorian mode) can't be reproduced on a piano unless we completely retune it; it will sound sweeter but be unable to accompany anyting except instruments (eg voice, violin, retuned fixed-pitch instruments) with the same tuning.

So, the posters who write about usage all have a point and are correct but its wretchedly confusing for most of us until we get the hang of what's going on.

In a spirit of helpfulness, hopefully.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Fidjit
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:38 AM

Rowan. Well done.

Chas

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 08:28 AM

I suppose the best thing is to just enjoy playing.so im off to do abit.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 02:23 PM

Rowan, the first bit about your experience on the melodeon is spot-on. But the bit about Bach and modes is completely out to lunch.

Firstly, it's an urban legend that Bach ever used equal temperament. Nobody started using it in a significant way until decades after he was dead. The temperament he probably used most of the time was Werckmeister 3, an adaptation of meantone which makes all keys acceptable but not all the same. His collection is called the WELL Tempered Keyboard, not the EQUAL Tempered Keyboard. (The fact that he writes very different kinds of music in the pieces in the more extreme keys, like the E flat minor ones from Book 2, should be a rather strong hint that he did *not* expect all keys to sound the same).

Secondly, the modal systems of Western music are independent of its tuning systems. You only need an accuracy of a semitone to say what mode a tune is in. Tuning systems are far more fine-grained than that - the differences you're talking about are about a sixth of a tone at most. A Dorian tune played in equal temperament, meantone, Pythagorean, or just intonation will sound Dorian in all of them. It won't be the same sound but it will be the same mode.

These different tuning systems can all be heard on record in different types of music. Most performers of mediaeval music (like Perotin or Machaut) use the Pythagorean system, in which all fourths and fifths are pure. It gives a hard, bright sound in which thirds are never lingered on because they always sound dissonant. People playing or singing Renaissance and Baroque music (like Byrd, Monteverdi or Purcell) use systems closer to just intonation or meantone, which makes the thirds pure and gives a softer and more emotional effect. Equal temperament is in between these extremes and it can be hard to tell it apart from either at times - modern minimalist music will often be in the Dorian mode in equal temperament.

In Middle Eastern music, you do sometimes get two modes that only have microtonal differences between their sets of pitches. But a listener has more than the pitch set to go on - the two modes will use different repertoires of melodic cadences and different large-scale melodic structures. Even in this music with all its shades of microtonality, a listener isn't expected to tell two modes apart by employing any greater pitch discrimination than you need when listening to somebody playing Irish tunes on an accordion.

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Stringsinger
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 03:28 PM

Don't forget "Kid on the Mountain" and the "Butterfly".

I would agree that many American rural dance tunes were predominantly in major keys. The minor parts of the tune would be
"blued" against the major chords.

Minor has often been equated with sadness or melancholy but I don't think that this is always the case. Shady Grove is an example in Mountain Minor which is a dance tune originally.

We can split hairs to determine whether the so-called modal tunes could be minor. I maintain that many of them are and that they are based on the sound of a minor quality using a contrast from the major scale. The idea of modality in folk music is tenuous and unprovable since the concept of modes were introduced after the fact to explain the musical evolution of folk songs. Many American traditional singers were not unfamiliar with minor tonality and this would be true of Irish, Scots and British singers and musicians as well.

"Coleraine" and other New England contra dance tunes are often in minor as well.

Unfortunately, it's too easy to generalize.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: Dance tunes in minor keys
From: Dazbo
Date: 08 Dec 07 - 04:11 PM

Sportsman's Hornpipe (or is that modal too as it has G naturals in it?)