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BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:58 PM "f that's the case, then such people should never vote for a Republican, since they've been rigging the elections since 2000." I won't argue that at all ... If that is the truth I certainly agree. I'm just debating Acorn since that is the topic of this thread. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM Yes, I think it's lacking in compassion to help the Republicans spread lies about an organization that is helping disenfranchised people to vote, and that helps poor people come closer to realizing what people in this country call the "American dream". Without ACORN, such people will be fending for themselves. And this is why the Republicans are working so hard to undermine ACORN's work. Because they don't like for poor people in this country to have any advocates at all. The Republicans are responsible for destroying most of the safety net we had in this country. They are responsible for almost destroying the unions in this country, and they are now trying to destroy the last hope that the people who have been hurt the most by their activities have... organizations like ACORN, who advocate on behalf of the poor. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM This seems to be another case of what Mark Twain wrote: "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Bobert Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:01 PM The entire ACORN story is bogus... These folks go oyut and collect registration forms... Period... They *** do not*** put people on the voting rolls... They collect forms... Registrars put people on the rolls... That is the real story that John McCain does not wnat you to know!!! Why??? Well, his lawyers are trying to soften up the courts for the possibility of an onslaugt of law suits after the election... I've often predicted that it would take over a 5% victory by Obama for the Repubs to accept the outcome without trying a repeat of their very successful 2000 legal challenge which was used to stop the recount in Florida... So, I hope that the percentages that the polls are showing today hold up or if you think the $700B Bailout was unbelievable then you ain't seen nuthin' yet when the Repubs unleash an army of lawyers on courts all across this country... I hope this doesn't happen because it would definately bring about alot of violence, the kind we have not seen since the 60's and might even take the country into a major uncivil war with neigbors shooting at each other... Don't think this can happen??? Just look at how pissed off the folks are who attend the Palin rallies... Hey, I'm watchin' these folks... Some of my neighbors are just like those people and guess what... They have guns and so do I... I've been trying to use a little humor with 'um but it ain't easu listening to folks talk about how Obama should be hung... Yeah, I've heard it... These folks know that I make a lot of jokes and everything but these folks ain't stable people... They are definately pissed off people who blame all their problems on Obama... So I'm hopin' for a ***clean*** landslide so that it doesn't end up in the courts and doesn't pit neighbor against neighbor.... That's about the only result that these people might accept... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Donuel Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:05 PM People from Boston are now getting letters that they will not be allowed to vote if they can not prove their citizenship. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:17 PM If I lived in the U.S. I'd be labeled a communist ... I wouldn't affiliate myself with either the Republicans or the Democrats ... I feel either party has not done enough for it's people. Look at the state your country is now ... yes the Republicans are certainly guilty, one can't argue that, but the Democrats could have done more. Anyway ... just because Acorn is tied close to the Democrat party it does not grant them complete immunity of all misgivings. there is a lot of money involved with this organization .... a lot of money tied to the Democrats .... a lot of $money$ lays way to greed. This is evident in the link below. embezzlment now go throw me to the wolves. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Donuel Date: 24 Oct 08 - 08:49 PM bILL, epionline is a multi million dollar right wing lobby located on K Street next to many other full time lobby corporations. They do not disclose the clients they shill for, but if you read all their "alleged" research, you might think that at least one would underscore or support a single Democratic reform. You sir will not be thrown to the wolves. At most we will have a Gerbil affectionatly nibble your finger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:22 PM I'm not a Democrat any more than I am a Republican. But it is a fact that under Democratic administrations the poor tend to do a lot better than they do under Republican administrations. While I think the Democrats could do a way better job of advocating for the poor (or better yet, moving people out of that category altogether), it is nevertheless throwing the baby out with the bathwater (and in the process, hurting the poor) if people try to eliminate organizations like ACORN just because one doesn't like the fact that they are involved with Democrats. We don't have a socialist or communist party in this country, and we never will. So the Democrats are the best hope the poor in this country have. Instead of undermining the Democrats, I think it would be far kinder to the poor in this country to try to make the Democratic party better and more responsive to those at the bottom of the economic ladder. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 24 Oct 08 - 09:28 PM I echo the above post... I wouldn't trust anything coming out of the right wing lobbying organizations or think tanks on the subject of ACORN. They want ACORN out of the way, and they will say and do anything to make that a reality. If ACORN has internal problems, it needs to clean them up. But their efforts on behalf of the poor and disenfranchised shouldn't be disrupted in the process. The Republicans and right-wingers who are trashing ACORN want to shut ACORN down, not help it become a better organization, because ACORN stands in the way of their having total control over the lives of the poor and disenfranchised. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Oct 08 - 11:29 PM So, OK, the Republicans are on the warpath, out to prove that ACRON is involved in all this illegal, immoral stuff. But they haven't gotten very far with it. Logic tells me that next they have to prove that all this nasty stuff had something to do with Obama. By that time, the election will be over and Obama will be president. I think the electorate is getting jaded, that they no longer believe empty allegations because there have been so many of them. It's "The Boy Who Cried 'Wolf' Syndrome," I think. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 12:49 AM Well Well Well, I see a whole lot of hemin and hawin around, side steppin etc. but I don't see no hands in tha air. So it is unanimous that CC, Bobert an everbody thinks ACORN is wrong for takin taxpayer money to pay people to fill out false registrations and bribe people with cash and cigarettes to fill out multiple registrations. OK then. Next question needin a straight answer: If ya think it is OK for Obama to claim he has never had anything to do with ACORN when in fact he has, raise up your hands for all to see. Obama's campaign website states: Fact: Barack was never an ACORN trainer and never worked for ACORN in any other capacity. The Journal Social Policy Chicago Photo of Obama and ACORN members Case Study: The Barack Obama Campaign written by Toni Foulkes, a Chicago ACORN Leader. "Obama took the case, known as ACORN vs. Edgar, the governor at the time, and we won. Obama then went on to run a voter registration project with Project VOTE in 1992 that made it possible for Carol Moseley Braun to win the Senate that year. Project VOTE delivered 50,000 newly registered voters in that campaign. ACORN delivered about 5,000 of them. Since then, we have invited Obama to our leadership training sessions to run the session on power every year, and, as a result, many of our newly developing leaders got to know him before he ever ran for office. Thus it was natural for many of us to be active volunteers in his first campaign for State Senate and then his failed bid for U.S. Congress in 1996. By the time he ran for U.S. Senate, we were old friends.""Project VOTE" in 1992 was undertaken in direct partnership with ACORN. The Los Angeles Times March 2, 2008: "At the time, Talbot worked at the social action group ACORN and initially considered Obama a competitor. But she became so impressed with his work that she invited him to help train her staff." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:02 AM Obama & Acorn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Stilly River Sage Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:09 AM Sawzaw, when I see your name in threads and skim your posts I assume you are taking a conservative Republican position and I assume you are wrong about the "facts" you purport to be reporting. Anyone else get the same reading from this character? SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:42 AM I don't think ACORN is wrong for employing people to register voters. I think it's wrong for the Republicans to lie about what ACORN is doing and use those lies as a excise to disenfranchise voters. In fact, not only is it wrong, it's also illegal. If Obama's request for a special prosecutor to look into the conspiracy between the Republican Party, the Bush administration, and the Justice Department to engage in widespread election fraud is granted, we will likely see some indictments, and even some convictions of those responsible. That will be a good day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:43 AM *excuse |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:14 AM Obama's ACORN-defending lawyers Twice in the last week, the Obama campaign's general counsel, Robert F. Bauer of the Perkins & Cole law firm, has written U.S. Attorney General Michael Mukasey, seeking to shut down the reported FBI investigation of ACORN and others. Instead, Bauer says, there should be a probe of those who have voiced concerns of voter registration fraud, claiming it's an intimidation effort designed to suppress voter turnout. As the Obama campaign's first letter claimed on Oct. 17, "Voter registration impropriety does not constitute actual vote fraud." It asserts that registration concerns are "manufactured allegations of fraud." Federal law treats registration fraud more seriously, as it should. Even an attempt to register falsely is a federal crime, punishable by up to five years in prison. The penalty is the same for those who aid or abet that effort. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:17 AM RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN Okay, the truth about ACORN, is it is a corrupt political organization. A good place to start, to prepare one for higher office....and that's the truth! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM And by flagging the suspect registration forms and alerting the officials that they were suspect, ACORN complied with the law. However, by holding on to the forms and then acting as though they had discovered them all on their own, rather than being alerted about them by ACORN, the election officials involved are the ones who are committing voter registration fraud, and by using that as an excuse to disenfranchise legitimate voters, they are also committing widespread election fraud, in violation of the law. And they definitely ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law along with the members of the Bush administration and the Justice Department who have aided and abetted them in this widespread election fraud. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:03 AM ooops. typo.. CarolC, It was on the 'news', tonight. Eighteen got caught, and withdrew their votes. 700 more suspected |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:06 AM From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:56 AM 'And they definitely ought to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law along with the members of the Bush administration and the Justice Department who have aided and abetted them in this widespread election fraud.' The Bush administration???....Huh?? Missed that part. Tell me more! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:30 AM Well, I just did a search, and I didn't find any actual news reports about 18 people withdrawing their votes. So unless some documentation is provided, I think I'll consign that one to the circular file. On the subject of Bush administration and Justice Department complicity... 'The current spate of trumped-up allegations of "voter fraud" coming from John McCain's campaign and his Republican allies and the FBI's decision to investigate represents exactly the same sort of politicization of justice that is at the root of an ongoing investigation into the firing of federal prosecutors, Barack Obama's campaign alleges. Obama attorney Bob Bauer has asked Attorney General Michael Mukasey to expand the authority of the special prosecutor appointed to investigate the US Attorney firings to also include the fraud allegations. The campaign released a seven-page letter (.pdf) Bauer wrote to Mukasey on Friday requesting the investigation. "Now, on the emerging evidence of recent conduct undertaken by Bush Administration officials, Republican Party officials, and representatives of the McCain-Palin campaign," he wrote, "it appears that further misconduct of the same nature, directly relevant to the work of the Special Prosecutor, requires that the scope of the Special Prosecutor's assignment be expanded." Bauer cites the case of former US Attorney David Iglesias, who represented the District of New Mexico until 2006. Bush administration officials reportedly conspired to sack Iglesias in part because of his unwillingness to bring specious voter-fraud charges before an election. Iglesias this week called the voter fraud investigations a scare tactic and said he was shocked to see the FBI was pursuing an investigation based on similarly unmerited accusations of fraud. On a conference call with reporters Friday, Bauer slammed the "illicit involvement of senior law enforcement officials" in leaking the details of the so-called fraud investigation. The Obama lawyer noted that the leak came "literally within 24 hours" of McCain's statement at Wednesday night's debate that ACORN was threatening the "fabric of our democracy." The McCain campaign has turned attacking ACORN into a central theme of its campaign in recent weeks, with vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin continuing the assault at a rally in Ohio on Friday. The community organization, witch which Obama has previously been involved, has produced a relatively small number of inaccurate registration forms in connection with its drive to sign up a million new voters, but it has not been registering voters directly on Obama's behalf and there's no evidence that it's actions in this or any previous election cycle have led to widespread voter fraud. Bauer said the "reckless and incendiary" attacks from the McCain campaign were aimed more at intimidating voters than at ferreting out fraud. ACORN primarily registered low-income and minority voters, and voting rights advocates fear those voters might not turn out on Election Day to avoid potential harassment at the polls. The Supreme Court also delivered a setback to the GOP on Friday, ruling against Ohio Republicans who have been feuding with the Secretary of State over registration rules. Bauer said the conduct he outlines is "directly relevant" to the special prosecutor's investigation and requested a meeting with Mukasey to discuss expanding the investigation. "Once is more than enough," he wrote. "The Department has yet to recover its credibility after the calamitous politicization of its mission in this Administration and the documented misconduct ... that resulted from the corrupt injection of politics into federal law enforcement."' http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Obama_campaign_wants_Attorneygate_prosecutor_to_1017.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 25 Oct 08 - 04:02 AM CarolC, One, who was of the ones, who I posted you about, was from Stanford. was on the 'news', tonight. They had the website, that posted it, but I don't remember then name. Heard it on Greta Van Sustern, 'On the Record',(Fox). Pull it back up from the circular file...umm, try http://www.nypost.com/seven/10242008/news/politics/nyers_swing__miss_135036.htm |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:44 AM The New York Post isn't a particularly credible source. In this case, the Post has taken a real story, and they've taken out important parts of it, and added others that they've invented themselves, and they're passing that off as "news". But it's still largely a fabrication. There is an organization called Vote From Home that is encouraging voters in Ohio to vote early to avoid the kinds of problems Ohio voters experienced in the last two elections that caused large numbers of them to be disenfranchised - that being the long lines at the polling places that prevented a lot of people from being able to vote. Some of the members of this organization who came to Ohio from other states to help out and were in residence in Ohio at the time, wanted to be able to vote where they were in Ohio instead of having to go back to their home states to vote. They thought that because they had taken up temporary residence in Ohio, they would be allowed to vote there. But they were not aware of a law in Ohio that stipulates a minimum required length of residence in order for people to be able to vote in that state. The state isn't prosecuting them because the prosecutor in the case has said there was no evidence of criminal intent. There was just ignorance of the law. When people get their "news" (propaganda) from people and organizations that have axes to grind, they don't get the truth. Mostly they get lies. This is one of those cases, as is most of what is being reported in the media about ACORN. All of this propaganda that is being promoted by sources like FOX and the New York Post is geared toward helping the Republicans in their efforts to disenfranchise legitimate voters and to cast doubts on the results of the election if Obama wins. They are not protecting democracy, they are undermining democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Bobert Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:46 AM No, Sawz, I don't think it is wrong that ACORN gets money to help get voters registered... That is a good thing... Sure, like any organization, there are gonna be a few bad apples... That, my friend, is life... I mean, lets compare ACORN with the medical profession... I think that most of US would agree that being a doctor is a noble profession but then we hear about doctors who submit bogus bills to Medicare??? Or take the military... I think we would agree that our servicemen are out there doing a good thing and then we hear about someone killing innocent Iraqis??? I mean, lets get back into the real world, Sawz, where, yes, some people do nor behave as we would like them to behave... That is life... Why would you hold ACORN to a higher standard than you would the medical profession or the military??? BTW, our county Sherrif, Danny Presgraves, who is a nice enough guy, was just arrested on 22 counts of all kinds of crimes... Oh yeah, he is a Republican... I guess that makes every Repu7blican in the country a crook??? Bad logic on yer part, Sawz... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Riginslinger Date: 25 Oct 08 - 10:23 AM "The New York Post isn't a particularly credible source." But we have people on these thread quoting the DailyKos and MoveOn.org, which are about as credible as quotes from the KKK. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 01:37 PM Even if that bizarre comment of Rig had been accurate, it would not in any way be relevant to the question of whether the New York Post is a credible source or not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:22 PM So Bobert thinks it is Ok for his taxes to be used to bribe people with cash and Cigs to fill out multiple fradulent voter registration forms even though filling out a false voter registration form is a federal offense. Take a bow Bobert. NYT: "Ms. Kingsley's description of the embezzlement differed from the organization's. In an interview July 8, Ms. Lewis said 90 percent of the $948,607 Mr. Rathke's brother embezzled came from Acorn and the rest from its charity affiliates. But Ms. Kingsley reported that $215,000 was charged to an Acorn American Express card paid by the Acorn Beneficial Association, a pension fund that has been replaced by a new Acorn pension fund. After the embezzlement was discovered, the Acorn Beneficial Association wrote off the embezzlement as a gift to Acorn." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Amos Date: 25 Oct 08 - 02:48 PM So Sawz thinks it is okay to impugn others and put words in their mouths in order to make those who do not agree with him look as dark as possible? Take a Slimeball Bow, Sawbrain. Your concern over registration fraud is admirable; but why are you so unconcerned about the much, much larger frauds perpetrated by your friend W. and company? Blood in the sand and 10 billion a month down the tube kinda makes registration cards take on a more appropriate perspective? You want fraud, how about Bushie-boy's "the Constitution is a piece of paper" series, or his fascinating string of cons under the guise of "above-the-law" signing statements? Ohh, I know!! How about WMD and ICBMS bristling on the borders of Iraq, aimed at the United STates? There's a fraud for you./ Give me a break, here, and let's discuss something important. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: GUEST,number 6 Date: 25 Oct 08 - 03:52 PM Yeah ... let's talk about how much $money$ has been spent on this damned never ending election ... Republicans and Democrats .... christ, it could probably cost less to have every child in the U.S. access to adequate health care. ouch ... goddammit a gerbal just bit my finger. I'm outta here. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:23 PM So Amos is among the elitists who believe it is acceptable for ACORN to take his money and bribe people to fill out multiple fraudulent voter registration forms? AR......1998......A contractor with ACORN-affiliated Project Vote was arrested for falsifying about 400 voter registration cards. CO......2004......An ACORN employee admitted to forging signatures and registering three of her friends to vote 40 times. CO......2005......Two ex-ACORN employees were convicted in Denver of perjury for submitting false voter registrations. FL......2004......A Florida Department of Law Enforcement spokesman said ACORN was "singled out" among suspected voter registration groups for a 2004 wage initiative because it was "the common thread" in the agency's fraud investigations. MI......2004......The Detroit Free Press reported that "overzealous or unscrupulous campaign workers in several Michigan counties are under investigation for voter-registration fraud, suspected of attempting to register nonexistent people or forging applications for already-registered voters." ACORN-affiliate Project Vote was one of two groups suspected of turning in the documents. MO......2007......Four ACORN employees were indicted in Kansas City for charges including identity theft and filing false registrations during the 2006 election. MO......2006......Eight ACORN employees in St. Louis were indicted on federal election fraud charges. Each of the eight faces up to five years in prison for forging signatures and submitting false information. MO......2003......Of 5,379 voter registration cards ACORN submitted in St. Louis, only 2,013 of those appeared to be valid. At least 1,000 are believed to be attempts to register voters illegally. NC......2004......North Carolina officials investigated ACORN for submitting fake voter registration cards. NM......2005......Four ACORN employees submitted as many as 3,000 potentially fraudulent signatures on the group's Albuquerque ballot initiative. A local sheriff added: "It's safe to say the forgery was widespread." NM ......2004......An ACORN employee registered a 13-year-old boy to vote. Citing this and other examples, New Mexico State Representative Joe Thompson stated that ACORN was "manufacturing voters" throughout New Mexico. OH......2007......A man in Reynoldsburg was indicted on two felony counts of illegal voting and false registration, after being registered by ACORN to vote in two separate counties. OH......2004......A grand jury indicted a Columbus ACORN worker for submitting a false signature and false voter registration form. In Franklin County, two ACORN workers submitted what the director of the board of election supervisors called "blatantly false" forms. In Cuyahoga County, ACORN and its affiliate Project Vote submitted registration cards that had the highest rate of errors for any voter registration group. MN......2004......During a traffic stop, police found more than 300 voter registration cards in the trunk of a former ACORN employee, who had violated a legal requirements that registration cards be submitted to the Secretary of State within 10 days of being filled out and signed. PA......2008......An ACORN employee in West Reading, PA, was sentenced to up to 23 months in prison for identity theft and tampering with records. A second ACORN worker pleaded not guilty to the same charges and is free on $10,000 bail. PA......2004......Reading's Director of Elections received calls from numerous individuals complaining that ACORN employees deliberately put inaccurate information on their voter registration forms. The Berks County director of elections said voter fraud was "absolutely out of hand," and added: "Not only do we have unintentional duplication of voter registration but we have blatant duplicate voter registrations." The Berks County deputy director of elections added that ACORN was under investigation by the Department of Justice. TX......2004......ACORN turned in the voter registration form of David Young, who told reporters "The signature is not my signature. It's not even close." His social security number and date of birth were also incorrect. VA......2005......In 2005, the Virginia State Board of Elections admonished Project Vote and ACORN for turning in a significant number of faulty voter registrations. An audit revealed that 83% of sampled registrations that were rejected for carrying false or questionable information were submitted by Project Vote. Many of these registrations carried social security numbers that exist for other people, listed non-existent or commercial addresses, or were for convicted felons in violation of state and federal election law. ----In a letter to ACORN, the State Board of Elections reported that 56% of the voter registration applications ACORN turned in were ineligible. Further, a full 35% were not submitted in a timely manner, as required by law. The State Board of Elections also commented on what appeared to be evidence of intentional voter fraud. "Additionally," they wrote, "information appears to have been altered on some applications where information given by the applicant in one color ink has been scratched through and re-entered in another color ink. Any alteration of a voter registration application is a Class 5 Felony in accordance with § 24.2-1009 of the Code of Virginia." WA......2007......Three ACORN employees pleaded guilty, and four more were charged, in the worst case of voter registration fraud in Washington state history. More than 2,000 fraudulent voter registration cards were submitted by the group during a voter registration drive. WI......2004......The district attorney's office investigated seven voter registration applications Project Vote employees filed in the names of people who said the group never contacted them. Former Project Vote employee Robert Marquise Blakely told the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel that he had not met with any of the people whose voter registration applications he signed, "an apparent violation of state law," according to the paper. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:35 PM Milwaukee Police Association endorses John McCain, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Bobert Date: 25 Oct 08 - 05:36 PM Yo, Sawz... There you go again with the same sh*t that made you have to give up yer Old Guy and Dickey handle and that is misrepresenting what other folks say which for the record is a way of... ..yes, lieing... In other words... Your statement above is a lie... Pure and simple... And that, my friend, makes you a liar!!! Don't like being called a liar??? Then quit lieing... That's purdy simple, ain''t it??? Bottom line is that we pay registrars and we pay to hold elections... These are paid for from tax dollars... If we believe that voting is important than anything that we can do to encourage it is worth it... ACORN is a bargain... They register one heck of a lot of people for alot less than we spend for a few hours on the Iraq War... (But, Bobert, they register a disporportionate number of poor people...) So??? Is that a bad thing??? (Well, yeah... That's a bad thing because poor people tend to vote for the Dems...) So??? Poor people are underrepresented in this democracy and according to the preemble of the Constitution the governemnt is supposed to be of the people and for the people... (But not *those* people, Bobert... Wink, wink...) Well, folks... This is the crux of the argument here... The Repubs just wnat the "real" Americians (wink, wink) voting... That is the bottom line here... In other words... People like them who aren't, ahhhh, different... This is what this is all about with ACORN... If ACORN were signing people up to vote as NASCAR events then the Repubs wouldn't say a word... But when ACORN goes out and registers people who traditionally have been disenfranchised the Repubs go into that righteous indignation act... Give me a break... This attack on ACORN is just thinly veiled racism... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:00 PM I'd surmise that it is probably as much about class as about race. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM When people quote sources like DailyKos and MoveOn, people are free to point out in what ways the material in those sources is wrong, as I did with the New York Post. If they just say (as many do), "that's not a credible source", but they don't provide any counter arguments, they have not made a successful argument against that source. I didn't do that. I said they're not credible, and then I debunked their arguments. I made a successful argument against that source. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:40 PM ACORN doesn't bribe people to fill out multiple registrations. It takes a special kind of bone-headedness to think an organization like ACORN would think they could get away with that and not be shut down. ACORN pays people to register voters. Some of those people defraud ACORN by filling out fake registrations. ACORN flags those registrations they think are not legitimate and they alert the authorities about them. People can keep repeating the same lies over and over, but that doesn't make them true. This kind of dishonest bone-headedness on the part of the McCain people is one of the reasons more and more Republicans are deciding to vote for Obama. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:41 PM Opinion pieces are not (or at any rate, should not be) cited as evidence, except as evidence of the opinion of the people who write them. They may point in the direction of evidence, and in some cases the fact certain people (eg Colin Powell) have particular opinions is significant in itelf.. That applies whether the opinion concerned is that of a someone posting on the Mudcat or the Daily Kos or Move ON, or an editorial writer in a newspaper. The essential principle should always be that of CP Scott, who wrote in 1921, on the occasion of his 50th year as editor of what was then the Manchester Guardian, "Comment is free, but facts are sacred." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:48 PM ACORN's Minimum Wage Hypocrisy ACORN doesn't want to pay the "living wage" it foists on other employers. ACORN has tried to get out of paying the minimum wage to its employees. In 1995, ACORN sued the state of California, claiming that it should be exempted from the state minimum wage. The group realized the simple economic fact facing all employers: being forced to pay higher wages means that you must employ fewer workers. A legal brief filed by ACORN during the appeal of its lawsuit admits: As acknowledged both by the trial court and California, the more that ACORN must pay each individual outreach worker—either because of minimum or overtime requirements—the fewer outreach workers it will be able to hire. This argument is particularly ironic. In 1996, when New Orleans business targets of Rathke's minimum wage increase campaign acknowledged the economic reality that increasing the cost of labor would lead them to reduce employment or cut hours, Wade Rathke snapped, "If their business is that marginal, they probably shouldn't be in business." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Bobert Date: 25 Oct 08 - 06:55 PM Yes, McG, it is also about class... But undeeneath it all it is also about race since a disporportionate number of poor people are also Black... And thank you, Carol, for pointing out that I did not say anything close to what Sawz says I said about bribing people... That came straight out of his head... And its a lie... No two ways abnout it... I don't think that Sawz has any idea how voter registration actually works... I do... I was the voter registration captain for the Obama team here in Page County... Those ACORN folks, like me and my folks. only present people an opportunity to register by filling out the forms... The forms then go to the "registrar" who checks for accuracy and to make sure that folks aren't allready registered... That is the real world... No bribery... No conspiracy... Just democracy at work... Sawz must not like democracy at work since he makes every attempt to discredit the folks who are out there trying to get people to participate in democracy... I can't think of any other plausable reason why Sawz would be so critical of folks becoming voters??? Maybe he/she will explain wher he/she has against people having and exercising their right to vote??? Maybe he/she won't??? Doesn't cvhjange the fact that the assault on ACORN by McCain and his supporters is a non-issue... It's even below flag burning as an issue... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:03 PM I wasn't referring to opinion pieces in my 25 Oct 08 - 06:10 PM post. I was referring to articles that are presenting news items. Of course, people should use the same methods when debunking opinion pieces if those opinion pieces are being used as though they are supporting what someone is presenting as facts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 07:59 PM So if Acorn can't pay a living wage, that seems to indicate they need more money, tied to a commitment to use that on higher wages. ................................ Yes, I understand that being Black and being poor go together disproportionately in the States (and not just in the States). And that is also true for Hispanic people. But I understand there are actually a lot more poor White people than poor Black people or poor Hispanic people in the USA. See here. And my impression is that there are people who would shy away from making racist comments about poor Black or Hispanic people don't feel the same reluctance to use terms like "trailer trash" for poor Whites. And I note that while your politicians are always taking about "the Middle Classes", those who are lower down the economic scale seem to be largely disregarded in public discourse. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Bobert Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:16 PM Yes, McG... In terms of actaul numbers there are alot nmore poor white people... But in terms or porportion, Blacks people still are disporportionatley pooree than whites... That is where race enters into the ACORN debate... "Trailer trash" isn't a block of voters that can be pinned down but I would guess that most would vote McCain... But you don't find these folks in urban areas where ACORN does most of it's work... You find more Black folks... Like I said, there is an under-current of racism in slamming ACORN for what it does... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:20 PM That's true. The climate in the US has become (since Reagan got elected) one of blaming the poor for their misfortune. Anyone who tries to advocate for the poor (like ACORN, for instance) gets trashed in both political discourse as well as in the popular media. It's almost like people think poor people have some kind of contamination that rubs off on anyone who tries to advocate on their behalf. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Bobert Date: 25 Oct 08 - 08:53 PM Right, Carol... That is why McCain is going around tellin' his folks that Obama wants to take their money away and give it to other people... Of course, this isn't what Obama is talking about here but... ...what John McCain's supporters are hearing has nothing to do with reality... It has to do with the ol' Welfare Cadiallac Mother, a "Big Lie" from the 60's and that "Big Lie" has alot to do with race... I mean, anyone old enough to actually remember the 60's remembers well the "Big Lies" that "The Establishement" used to portray Black people as lazy and no-good... The 60's was the decade of codified Jim Crow... It is very sad that John McCain has chosen to resurrect the codified Jim Crow racism of the 60's but that is exactly what he is doing... The attak on ACORN is nothing more than yet another run of Jim Crowism... It's like when Redneck American cheered when Lester Maddox threatened to beat civil rights workers to death with a baseball bat... Hey, let's get5 real here... There ain't no hidy holes here where racists herein Mudville can hide as they deliver one slam after another against an organization that is doing purdy much what the folks who Lester Maddox threatened to kill some 40 years ago... I am sick that folks can actaully bullsh*t themselves into thinking they are on the "right side" on this argument when their only interest is keeping as many potential Obama voters away from the polls... You all know exactly who you are... And, inspite of your protestations, you are the unAmericans among US... Square business... B~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:00 PM Of course signing up to get registered is only part of actually getting to vote. This is an interesting initiative aimed to help bridge that gap, or at least show up when it doesn't get bridged - Video the Vote 2008: Video the Vote is a national initiative to protect voting rights by monitoring the electoral process. We organize citizen journalists—ordinary folks like you and me—to document election problems as they occur. And then we distribute their footage to the mainstream media and online to make sure the full story of Election Day gets told. Of course it is pretty weird to have a situation in which people feel this kind of thing is necessary. But it would appear that they are right to feel that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:30 PM Video the Vote doesn't help prevent disenfranchisement for a lot of people, though (as much as I applaud their efforts). For instance, it doesn't help the people who are having to wait for hours in very long lines in Florida because the Republicans if Florida changed the law and severely decreased the number of hours the voting places could remain open. What they're doing could help the next election, but by then they'll have thought of new ways to disenfranchise voters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 09:38 PM But it's true that as long as that kind of massive voter disenfranchisement is going on, this country really can't be considered a democracy. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Sawzaw Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:04 PM "ACORN doesn't bribe people to fill out multiple registrations" Read very carefully the things written in newspapers, not blogs: Acorn takes taxpayers money and pays people to register voters. Those people bribe people with cigarettes and cash to fill out multiple registration forms which is a felony. If Acorn lets the people they pay with public funds from doing this, they are abusing the use of public funds. "Sometimes, they come up and bribe me with a cigarette, or they'll give me a dollar to sign up," said Freddie Johnson, 19, who filled out 72 separate voter-registration cards over an 18-month period at the behest of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. "The ACORN people are everywhere, looking to sign people up. I tell them I am already registered. The girl said, 'You are?' I say, 'Yup,' and then they say, 'Can you just sign up again?' " he said. " Bobert can puff himself up all he wants and blame things on racial bias but it does not change the facts. Acorn is pissing his tax money away on frivilous illegal activities. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: Barry Finn Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:21 PM "Okay, the truth about ACORN, is it is a corrupt political organization. A good place to start, to prepare one for higher office....and that's the truth!" It's a damn shame that it's citizen groups & organizations like these that see to the needs of the voting public, espically those with limited resources, finiances & limited time, education & where all when it should be the right of every citizen to vote freely without the harassment & intimidation from the powers that be. Voting should be accessable & made easy to all. It should not be the responsiblity of anyone but the government's to make that happen. Voting in the US needs to be monitered by a world watchdog group just as we claim we should be watching other nations where we know that the electorical systems are tampered with by elected officials. The untracable & falable voting with diebold should be tossed & some are worried that ACORN is a threat, please. We've had less than a handfull of voter fraud cases throughout the whole country & millions have become disinfranshied, that's bullshit, who's the asshole here. The poor are screwed when it comes to voting, they have trouble with finding the time to vote, working 2 or more jobs with no time off, election day(s) (should be held over a long weekend-Friday-Saturday-Sunday) should be a work holiday. The poor ought to be offered FREE PUBLIC transportation to the polls, be shelterded for the elements if they have to wait hours to vote. Those that are raving about ACORN sicken me, they ought to live in the real world instead of looking around with their heads up their asses it's no wonder all they see is shit. OK, "bring it on". Barry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: CarolC Date: 25 Oct 08 - 11:23 PM The only "news" source I can find the first quote in is the New York Post. We've already seen how they distort and fabricate things to suite their propagandist agenda. I think I'll reserve judgment on that one until I see it from a less propagandistic source. I didn't find any news sources for the second quote. Just blogs and forums. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Oct 08 - 06:20 AM So it appears that some people employed by ACORN have defrauded the organisation and broken the law. ACORN has tried to identify where this has happened,and has informed the relevant authorities. As a result it gets accused by partisan opponents of colluding with and encouraging the offenders. This is a bit like saying that if someone on a check-out counter in a supermarket is short-changing the customers, the shop is to blame, especially if it takes steps to spot the offender and deal with them. |
