BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 04:13 PM

Everything was fictional, including their representation to their viewers of what happened in the ACORN offices.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Sep 09 - 09:21 PM

Very hard to believe, but if they can prove it, they can probably sue somebody. I doubt if they'll get anywhere trying to sue Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: DougR
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:16 AM

Wow, CarolC, you've become quite an expert on Fox News. I congratulate you!

Wonder why their ratings are so high? Maybe the numbers of liberals watching are increasing the ratings to all time highs? Or maybe some folks look for a channel they can depend upon to report unbiased news.

It's a puzzlement.

Greg F: as I've often said, your cage is cleaned out now, so you can return home.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:31 AM

FOX appeals to people's baser instincts. A lot of people find that irresistible.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Greg F.
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:52 AM

It also appeals to idiots incapable of critical and/or independent thought, Carol. I hope a regular poster here recognizes himself.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:16 PM

Fortunately, the speculation that it might be record numbers of liberals watching is demonstrably false. FOX News makes "liberals" vomit. It's a natural reflex that can't be controlled. So they don't watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 01:59 PM

So, if the liberals do not watch Fox, then this demonstrably proves that most people are not liberals. since Fox has been getting a larger and larger share of viewers.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:01 PM

The do if they're bulimic!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:08 PM

I'd like to see some independent documentation (not coming from FOX) on the percentages of people who watch FOX. I'm sure as hell not going to take a FOX viewer's word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:49 PM

And, of course, FOX "News" has a habit of labelling as Democrats, Republicans who get caught in scandals.

Mark Foley with a D is here

and Mark Sanford with a D is here.

There are more as well (Arlen Specter when he was still a Republican), and Dan Crain of Illinois who was caught having an affair with a 17 year old page in the 1980's was recently labelled with a D on FOX.

Do these count as evidence of FOX News lies?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:54 PM

I'd like to see some independent documentation (not coming from the supporters) on the percentages of people who support Obama plans. I'm sure as hell not going to take an Obama supporter's word for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:56 PM

They look like lies to me. And since they do it so often, they really can't be called an innocent mistake. It's a pattern of deception, designed to make people believe things that aren't true.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 02:59 PM

"They look like lies to me. And since they do it so often, they really can't be called an innocent mistake. It's a pattern of deception, designed to make people believe things that aren't true. "


Exactly my opinion of the Obama statemnents on a number of topics!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 03:00 PM

But the percentages of people who support Obama's plans isn't the subject being discussed here. The demand for that information is a deflection designed to change the subject so that people who claim that the majority of people watch FOX News won't have to back up their assertions with any facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:06 PM

I usually disagree with Kathleen Parker on everything, but she lays out the ACORN situation pretty well here:

http://www.themorningsun.com/articles/2009/09/23/opinion/srv0000006458554.txt

             She doesn't deal with home loans for illegal aliens, so I expect that will be next.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 04:42 PM

Kathleen Parker and Marcel Reid don't seem to care whether or not the things they say actually coincide with the facts, apparently. Acorn has not been stripped of its federal funding. The fact that so many people think they have been is a testament to the propagandistic nature of the US mainstream media.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:13 PM

Here's the complaint:
http://www.politico.com/static/PPM116_complaint.html

This is amazing. ACORN and the two Baltimore women are jointly suing, even though ACORN fired them. They carefullly restricted the complaint to "You taped us without our consent," "With malice" and we were emotionally distressed (with accompanying physical symptoms) and damaged in reputation.

NO allegations about false pretenses, false representations or false portrayals. - Keep it simple. . . .

But have they thought this through? Besides the obvious fact that they are seeking retribution for someone revealing their words, they will have to prove the measure of their distress, and what caused it - Unpermitted audio recording - or being fired? Being portrayed as criminals, or being falsely portrayed as criminals?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 08:20 PM

CarlC,

YOU are the one trying to make it about Fox- the thread is about ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:00 PM

As I said before, making a video recording is not illegal. If it were, all the surveillance cameras running in stores or sitting on traffic lights catching speeders would be against the law.

The question of recording voice it trickier, but clear.

A person involved in the conversation can record at will, even if some parties are not warned.

What is illegal is "evesdropping" where the party doing the recording is an observer, not a participant. Evesdropping can be done only with a legal authorization.

The two investigators were part of the conversation and were acting legally. Sorry, ACORN folks.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:11 PM

Maryland statutes are quoted on page 4 of the complaint, pdq.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:17 PM

Maybe a participant in a conversation is not intercepting the conversation, but where's the Maryland law to say so?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:39 PM

Maryland, like California, forbids you to tape your own telephone conversations without the other person's consent.

It is strange enough for them to have filed suit even if they have that recording law right. If they have it wrong, well, that would just beat all.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:40 PM

It's about FOX whether anyone in this thread wants it to be or not. FOX has been gunning for ACORN for a long time. They have no credibility on the subject of ACORN, because they have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:42 PM

I believe in Maryland, it is illegal to make an audio recording of a conversation even if one of the participants knows about it, if the other party does not. If I remember correctly, that's what got Linda Tripp in so much hot water.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 09:51 PM

Here you go (did the ACORN workers have a reasonable expectation of privacy at their place of business to conspire and assist in criminal activity (while probably using public funding)?):

Under Maryland's Wiretapping and Electronic Surveillance Act, it is unlawful to tape record a conversation without the permission of all the parties. See Bodoy v. North Arundel Hosp., 945 F.Supp. 890 (D. Md. 1996). Additionally, recording with criminal or tortuous purpose is illegal, regardless of consent. Md. Code Ann., Cts. & Jud. Proc. § 10-402.

Disclosing the contents of intercepted communications with reason to know they were obtained unlawfully is a crime as well.

Violations of the law are felonies punishable by imprisonment for not more than five years and a fine of not more than $10,000. Civil liability for violations can include the greater of actual damages, $100 a day for each day of violation or $1,000, along with punitive damages, attorney fees and litigation costs. To recover civil damages, however, a plaintiff must prove that the defendant knew it was illegal to tape the communication without consent from all participants. MD. Code Ann., Cts. & Jud. Proc. § 10-410.

State courts have interpreted the laws to protect communications only when the parties have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and thus, where a person in a private apartment was speaking so loudly that residents of an adjoining apartment could hear without any sound enhancing device, recording without the speaker's consent did not violate the wiretapping law. Malpas v. Maryland, 695 A.2d 588 (Md. Ct. Spec. App. 1997); see also Benford v. American Broadcasting Co., 649 F. Supp. 9 (D. Md. 1986) (salesman's presentation in stranger's home not assumed to carry expectation of privacy).

http://www.rcfp.org/taping/states/maryland.html

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:00 PM

ACORN have no credibility on the subject of Fox, because they have demonstrated that they cannot be trusted.


As I said, "They look like lies to me. And since they do it so often, they really can't be called an innocent mistake. It's a pattern of deception, designed to make people believe things that aren't true. " describes Obama. And HE has been guinning for conservatives, so you have proved that he is a liar, by your standards.


Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:04 PM

I think ACORN's lawyers let their emotions (and potential celebrity) get the better of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:06 PM

But the charge that ACORN can't be trusted is based on lies and misinformation coming from organizations like FOX. Since they are the ones making the accusations, and since they have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted, even the charge that ACORN can't be trusted has no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:23 PM

But the charge that FOX can't be trusted is based on lies and misinformation coming from organizations like ACORN. Since they are the ones making the accusations, and since they have proven time and again that they cannot be trusted, even the charge that FOX can't be trusted has no validity.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:28 PM

FOX News

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:35 PM

No, we can independently verify (as I have done above) that FOX cannot be trusted, without any help at all from ACORN, so that one won't wash.

Someone needs to learn how to discern which arguments can be reversed and which ones can't before they make themself look foolish. Not all arguments can be reversed.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:48 PM

"The two investigators were part of the conversation and were acting legally. Sorry, ACORN folks."

That's true. However, when the stuff seems to have been edited (what was it, 18 minutes from Nixon?), there's a problem with that. I respect most of the people posting to this thread, but find it impossible to really believe anyone here actually listens to Fox News.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 10:59 PM

No, we can independently verify (as I have done above) that ACORN cannot be trusted, without any help at all from FOX, so that one won't wash.


How many cases of election fraud are currently going on against ACORN?

It seems that YOU need to learn which rules apply to ALL, and stop stating that those you support get special treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:04 PM

There are no cases of election fraud against ACORN. There are some cases of election fraud against some people who used to work for ACORN (and who ACORN turned in to authorities), but none against ACORN itself.

We do not have any independent verification of any dishonesty on the part of ACORN.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Peace
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:06 PM

And, Carol just nailed it in one.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:19 PM

(You mean other than intentional concealment of embezzlement.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:22 PM

That wasn't systemic. That was an individual who has also been fired.

What is it we keep hearing about torturers in the US military? It's not systemic, only few bad apples?

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:24 PM

(Of course we know that in the case of the military it was systemic, but that does seem to be the bar that has to be overcome in order to make the charge that an entire organization is culpable.)

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:32 PM

No, the individual embezzled; The concealment was systemic, defrauding donors.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:35 PM

I believe it was one employee (the embezzler's brother) who concealed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: KenM
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:51 PM

Back between 1989 - 94, I lived in Little Rock AR, and on Saturdays, I hosted a folk music show on KABF, the ACORN radio station. Bruce (Peace), like it or not, some of your material from "Singer/Song Writer Project," "33 1/3 RPM", and the CBC International Recording was played on that show. The radio station was upstairs, the other functions of ACORN were downstairs. I spent many hours interacting with many fine people whose only interest was equality, equity, social justice, and a color-blind society in the U.S.

They're still there...they're still fightin' and I'm still with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: heric
Date: 23 Sep 09 - 11:53 PM

Maybe Wade Rathke covered up his brother's million dollar fraud all by himself for eight years. I don't think anyone's proven otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 10:29 AM

Barney Frank is washing his hands of them. I think they're toast!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 01:16 PM

Steny Hoyer's saying, let's get more facts before taking any action.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: GUEST,JML
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:36 PM

The Bodoy case that everyone quotes deals with one employee recording conversations with another in the workplace.

Not applicable here.

The Monica Lewinsky case was over the telephone.

Again, not applicable here.

The key thing here is "intercept", which O'Keefe and Giles did not do. Intercept is different that participate. Intercept means a third party not participating in the conversation.

Also, if I remember right from looking at the video, the door to the room was open, thus negating any expectation of privacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 02:39 PM

"Steny Hoyer's saying, let's get more facts before taking any action."

                But nobody listens to Hoyer!

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 03:20 PM

I'm pretty sure I remember that some of the conversations Tripp recorded between her and Lewinsky happened in a bar. At any rate, the court will decide whether or not ACORN has any legal basis for their suit. All we can do is speculate.


Lots of people listen to Hoyer.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:22 PM

It doesn't look like this is going away any time soon. Due to the reality that ACORN has decided to go forward with their suit against the young lady, right-wing attorneys are lining up to take the case and intend to subpoena all of ACORN's financial and personnel records under the right of discovery.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:31 PM

However, even if they don't find anything out of line (definitely a possibility), that won't shut up the critics. That's because this isn't at all about anything ACORN's doing that they shouldn't be doing. It's entirely about the rich and powerful not wanting people at the bottom to be empowered and to be able to participate in the democratic process.

Subject: RE: BS: Spread the Truth About ACORN
From: pdq
Date: 24 Sep 09 - 09:37 PM

"...right-wing attorneys are lining up to take the case..."

Both of them?