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BS: Every Wonder?
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:16 PM PS - university degrees are very nice for the mind and the paychecks (if you're lucky) but they are certainly no guarantee of wisdom, tolerance, compassion or humility. I'd feel like a fool if I tried waving mine around as some kind of 'proof' that my views are any more 'worthy' than the next person's. But that's just me ... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 04 Feb 03 - 06:44 PM Exactly what I thought you'd say! I'll borrow a soto voce tool from Gargoyle and observe that one shoud Never duel with an unarmed combatant. . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: boab d Date: 04 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM the thing about nipples is the same answer as the females its nothing to do with the fact or fiction of male lactation its because when you are being a little romantic with the opposite sex its nice to have them played with. Dylan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 04 Feb 03 - 08:04 PM Ahhhh ... pleasure! Indeed, that's the BEST reason, Dylan! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: the lemonade lady Date: 05 Feb 03 - 06:00 AM why there isn't mouse-flavored cat food? ...How do you know, have you ever tasted it? why women can't put on mascara with their mouth closed? ...I can! why lemon juice is made with artificial flavor, while dishwashing liquid is made with real lemons? ... Ahem!! My juice is the REAL thing! I wonder why we can't eat a doughnut without licking our lips, and I wonder why we can't brush our teeth without wiggling our bums! Sal |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Pushkin Date: 05 Feb 03 - 07:59 AM I love the way threads go....... This one is certainly getting interesting. Why do men always buy women chocolate and underwear for christmas/birthday presents? I hasten to add that my SO, StevetheORC, would eat the chocolate himself!! Pushkin |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Pushkin Date: 05 Feb 03 - 08:42 AM Ever wonder why some people have hairy nipples? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Grab Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:03 AM Daylia, where would we be without the White Man's contribution to vocabulary? One answer: we'd be in the position of having no basis for scholarship. The words "because, how, expect, could, should" are all required for logical discussion of concepts, to represent cause and effect. If you can't represent cause and effect in your language, you either invent words to do that or you can't discuss those concepts. On another theme of the language, I agree with Mudlark: Indians were *tribal* (as were Europeans, just a bigger tribe). If you have a tribe, by definition your language requires words for "those belonging to the tribe" and for "those not belonging to the tribe". Even if the "not belonging" words are specific in identifying which tribes the other people *do* belong to, the words are still there to represent the concepts of "those like us" and "those not like us". The words could only be absent from the language if the Indian tribes had no concept of this, and we know from historical evidence that this isn't the case. And as far as "it" goes, that word is also missing from French and Romance languages. It doesn't mean that those people do not have the concept of "inanimate object", it's just that the language has assigned a gender semi-randomly to these words. German and Germanic languages are similar - they have three genders, but inanimate objects are semi-randomly assigned a gender. Graham. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 05 Feb 03 - 09:39 AM Interesting, Graham! Thanks for you insights. I posted the list above as a light-hearted invitation to ponder how different life would if those concepts were not part of our world-view. I found it almost impossible to imagine, and I find it fun to wonder about such unusual ideas. There's as many notions of 'fun' as there are people, it seems. My intention was certainly not to start a scholarly discourse or argument about the book or it's author - just some whimsical entertainment - inspired by a thread called 'Every Wonder'. But I have discovered as a new member of Mudcat that not much can be said - or wondered about - on this forum without someone jumping on an unforeseen soapbox (or jumping down my throat!) Oh well, c'est la vie. Soapboxes can be fun too, at times. Arguments? Not fun, and usually a big waste of time and energy, in my experience. By the way, here's a picture and some information about another so-called Indian Weed. native to Australia, India and Asia. Doesn't look like our Aussie friends smoke it though! Happy wonderings! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: katlaughing Date: 09 Feb 03 - 03:20 PM Sorry I have missed this thread until now. SRS, seems to me you've made some pretty big assumptions with this statement: I'm sorry you have spent so much time and energy with this single text, and have developed an entire make-believe world about Indians as a result. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Feb 03 - 03:37 PM We're back to this? I would recommend wider reading than this one flawed novel if you want to learn about American Indian history, let alone the culture today. If the text is called into question, then defend it by looking for other sources that support it. I know of none, but that doesn't mean they don't exist--but it's the part of the supporter of the novel to find them. The single-minded defense of the novel allowed the observation I made above. The book in question does not represent American Indians accurately. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 09 Feb 03 - 04:43 PM SRS - The only 'make-believe world' I see here is the one you've built around ME, and around light-hearted Mudcat BS threads as an appropriate venue for venting your second-hand 'scholarly' (???) opinions and arrogance. Why don't you save it for your students? At least you get paid for it, and they are FORCED to listen to you! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:03 PM So is "BS" as the title of a thread synonymous with the term "lowest common denominator?" Heaven forbid anyone learn anything when reading one? Kat, as you see, there is no point in discussing this. We're coming from positions too far apart. I have posted citations and anyone wishing to know more about the academic view of this text can go read those. I rest my case. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: katlaughing Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:13 PM I'll drop it, too, SRS, but scholarly or not, imo you more than stated your opinion and made an unfair assumption. No one said the book in question was the be all to end all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM SRS - according to the Newcomer's Guide to Mudcat, BS means 'breeze-shooting' as a more polite way of saying b******t. Even the average 3-year-old can distinguish a 'breeze' from a 'long-winded gale'. (the latter reminding me of one of Spaw's latest witticisms - 'lobotomal trots'!) Yes, check out SRS' posts above for the scholarly disputes (if anyone still cares). And for a social/spiritual perspective that invites willing minds to contemplate even deeper truths, the words of Ruth Beebe Hill and Chunksa Yuha are posted there as well. 'Every Wonder' why peace is such a difficult commodity to come by? Hmmmm CUZ I'M STILL CONTRIBUTING TO THIS SILLINESS? Maybe! Peace and hope daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:28 PM The breeze yer fanning smells like a big fart, Daylia-girl! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 09 Feb 03 - 05:30 PM Where's your nose bin lately GUEST? Tucked snugly between your thighs? ((((((((( ;-) ))))))))) Just funnin'... daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Feb 03 - 11:15 PM The following search on Google gives quite a number of explanations of the problems with this book. Of particular interest is the issue of Studies in American Indian Literature (SAIL) because it has several reviews by big names in the field of American Indian Literature. As a disclaimer, I will note that I have published in this journal several times and am a member of the parent organization ASAIL. I was not publishing back when this issue came out. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 10 Feb 03 - 09:44 AM SRS thank you for the links. They are most interesting, at first glance. It will take a lot of convincing for me to study them in greater detail however. Why? Unfortunately I have been SO turned off by the back-biting and arguing between just about every native group I've worked with over the years that, in my mind anyway, anything ANY of them has to say about the 'old ways' is very questionable. Their motives may be commendable, but they are a race bludgeoned by European colonialism and imperialism, a race reeling from a few centuries of attempts at cultural genocide. IMO none of them remembers the 'old ways' either accurately or completely. They are doing the best they can to recover. And I say again, unless you've actually read the book and experienced what lies in those pages, you are IMO in no position to judge it's value. Scholarly arguments debating it's 'authenticity' aside for a moment, the book overflows with wisdom, with spirituality. Over the years I've come to value a work for it's resonance with the HEART, more than with the mind or with the fickle tides of public opinion. And any work, novel or otherwise, which offers such inspiring and self-empowering thoughts as the following does not deserve to be 'trashed and burned', but treasured, IMO. Because matters of the heart, of the soul and spirit, transcend and outweigh scholastic methods of criticism and analysis. "Live and appreciate yourself, the grandfathers say. Recognize that your ears grant songs to the trees and to the stream. Soar of the wings of these songs; they belong to you. Use your body for giving growth to the spirit, your spirit. You, who will become Great Spirit. I hope some of you creative 'Catters enjoyed that! daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 10 Feb 03 - 10:04 AM Sorry, forgot to credit Ruth Beebe Hill's 'Hanta Yo' with the above quote. daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM Henry David Thoreau accomplishes the same thing if you read Walden but he isn't playing god with other cultures. The European and Asian traditions have fine sets of environmental and spiritual ideas and documents, on a par with what you'll find in American Indian lore. They just aren't as popular right now. Meanwhile, you can stop with your belittling pronouncements that if anyone has an opinion that differs from yours they are long-winded, uncreative, unimaginative, insensitive or ignorant. If I know how to use evaluative tools and choose my texts accordingly and choose not to waste my time with one like this unless it adds to scholarship, that's my gain. Is your repetitive blugeoning of the thread about this book and how you know "real" Indians supposed to prove that you understand this topic beyond the context of this book?
What hubris! You can evaluate better than the people themselves? Based on this novel? You won't believe what Indians say about this text because they're not capable of intellectualizing their way out of this "plight" (you've missed that hackneyed word in all of this, I think). You completely ignore a huge body of work consisting of a viable oral tradition and for the past 300 years the written works by American Indians. But this discussion has nothing to do with literature, and everything to do with politics, so drop the call for "peace" and offering an insult at the close your remarks. You've done that every single post on this big-time thread-creep topic, so no more scolds to me please for arguing passionately about a topic as equally important as a BS thread about whether Dubya gets us into a shooting war or if Bill Clinton was a good president or not. You're egging it on. This novel is just another excuse to keep Indians in their place, as artifacts. It is unfortunate that people read it and think it is real. The ideas are all appropriated and scrambled and put into a mythical unreal context. And by doing this you've rhetorically cast modern autonomous Indian people into the same childlike government ward status that the government and others who got rich off of Indians would like to see them remain in. Go read Custer Died for your Sins if you want to see what "real" Indians think. Do you know what Sitting Bull's favorite photo of himself was? He was sitting in his automobile with his wives in the car with him. But the photo was never published in his lifetime or for a long time after, because people couldn't accept the idea of Indians actually knowing something about modern day equipment (guns excepted). In Black Elk Speaks one of the lines that Neihardt edited out was when Nicholas Black Elk talked about hearing voices "like a radio." That "radio" had to go because it tied Black Elk into a modern western world. Yes, there's a lot of infighting going on. It is intentional, it keeps Indians from making much progress forward if they're too busy squabbling over the scraps the U.S. government doles out while mismanaging billion$ of Indian dollars. So Alonzo Blacksmith made a few bucks for himself by selling out to Beebe Hill. It's his right, and hers to publish. But don't expect any positive American Indian reviews of the book. The Google search I posted had no evaluative remarks in it. I used "Indians" and "+"Chunksa Yuha". The bad reviews by Indians came through on their own. I'm sure by now everyone else who was following Pushkin's whimsical thread has thrown their hands in the air and logged off. My apologies to the others who were participating in the silliness of the thread to have to encounter my inability to let these insults go unanswered. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: Schantieman Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM Can't speak for anyone else, but I'd rather that a light-hearted thread on amusing everyday conundrums (conundra?)wasn't hijacked and turned into an academic political discussion. Not that I have anything against such discussion, you understand, but why not put 'em in a different thread? Steve |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: *daylia* Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:31 AM SRS let's let it go ok? You obviously just don't want to see my point, and that's okay too. We are approaching the book from entirely different perspectives, that's all. And I do recognize long-winded, tedious, second-hand scholastic arrogance when I see it. I avoid it like the plague whenever possible. They say that Canadians have the tendency to respect diversity, to harness discontent (and use that energy to create the new), to agree to disagree. So I agree to disagree with your assessment of this book as 'trash'. If you choose to base your views of the world on other people's opinions instead of on direct experience, that's your 'sacred' choice. I choose differently, that's all. PS you don't know me AT ALL, and I'm not fond of blowing my own horn or name-dropping, by the way. I have no reason to explain who I am, what I've studied, who is in my family tree or who I've worked with to someone who can't resist attacking everything I say. Why would you believe it anyway? Just a waste of time, IMO. What I've said comes from the heart, and it is my truth. And now I'm off to enjoy my day! Peace daylia |
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Subject: RE: BS: Every Wonder? From: JennyO Date: 10 Feb 03 - 11:53 AM Well, just for the record, Daylia - I liked it. BTW, I haven't forgotten I was going to PM you. I just need a bit more time to get my thoughts together, but I will soon. Jenny |