How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary

Subject: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:25 PM

2005 will be the 200th Anniversary of the Death of Nelson and the Victory at Trafalgar. Any thoughts on how it should be commemorated?    European and American cousins not excluded from this, obviously, but probably have a different viewpoint!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:39 PM

What I've advocated for some time - A proper celebration.

Dig HMS Victory out of dry dock at Pompey, and sail her rouhd to Chatham, where she was built.

If her course take her within range of the French coast, or any French or Spanish fishing boats then we will see what a broadside of 32 pounders can do to them.

Gareth

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:41 PM

Huzzah - Gareth - I'm all for it - wouldn't doing that make Victory fall apart tho'?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:51 PM

No - At least I think not - HMS Victory has been heavily rebuilt over the last few years. I suspect the only bit of original wood is the bit of the "Cockpit" where Nelson died.

Wether they can find a crew is another matter !

Gareth

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 01:59 AM

Well whatever they do about crew, there will be no shortage of proper shanty men!

I suspect 'Victory' is like the axe at the Tower of London - it's had three new heads and five new handles, but it's still the axe that chopped off the heads of Ann Boleyn and the like.

LTS

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: LadyJean
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:09 AM

Jack Aubrey sets sail next month, when Russell Crowe's "Master and Commander" comes out. I admit I approach it with mixed feelings. But Aubrey served with Nelson at the Nile.
At least people will have some idea of Nelson's navy.
Since Nelson wasn't buried at sea. (I've seen his tomb, it looks like a giant sugar bowl.) His bed is still on board the victory, with the coverings embroidered by Lady Hamilton. Perhaps it could go on tour.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 02:22 AM

Of course Nelson wasn't dropped overboard - just as well too, or we'd not have got a song like 'Nelson's blood' - he was just dropped into a barrel of spirituous liquor and preserved that way until they got him home. Alcohol starved sailors would slip a knife blade through the seams of the barrel, twist and slurp up the resulting spurt of 'juice'.

I just can't remember if it were rum or brandy.

LTS

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:34 AM

Brandy - I'm pretty sure.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: okthen
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:41 AM

It'd be rum if it was brandy.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:14 AM

Oh come me brave boys, as I've told you before,
And drink me brave boys till we boldly call for more,
For the french they do invade us, and they say that they will try,
They say that they will come and drink old England dry.

Which reminds me, We're getting low on wine, we must pop across to France for another booze cruise. I expect that the brandy that Nelson's body was brought home in, had been captured from the french in the first place.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:31 AM

Dont know about next year but we are doing a gig for the Navy in Northwood tonight as a Trafalgar celebration.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:36 AM

I was going to suggest taking the Greenpeace fleet (or the New Zealand Navy)to Brest to sink the French fleet, but Gareth pre-empted me.

RtS

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 05:37 AM

If you ask the French, they will either refuse to admit that it happened or claim it as a French victory.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 05:50 AM

Yes the froggies have quite a lot to answer for. Beside the "Rainbow Warrior" atrocity, we should remember that France supplied Argentina with the Exocet missiles which were responsible for the loss of lives and ships in the Falklands war.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Wotcha
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:05 AM

Well, there is a massive reenactor presence planned for 2005 in Portsmouth (UK, that is)... if I can get there, I'll be in circa 1800 rig.

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST,Rich A
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 09:33 AM

David, it is true that the French suplied the exocets to the Argentinians but they also suplied exocets to us. We had them on our ships. Also there's the fact that we suplied Argentina with their T42 destroyers and their carrier was originally from the Royal Navy.
We've all got a lot to answer for.

Anyway, I think a proper Trafalgar celebration is a first rate idea.

Rich

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 03:34 PM

Practice for the celebrations in 2015 which will upset the froggies even more.

A 2 day bank holiday or both occasions for starters.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: HuwG
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:00 PM

Gareth, unfortunately, the masts and spars in HMS Victory aren't appropriate; they are mere "monkey spars", put in from a scrapped frigate in eighteen seventy-something or whenever they put her into the dry dock. Oh, they'll move her, but I they would be inadequate to claw her off a lee shore in any sort of wind. Do you mind if I decline to ship aboard for your proposed raid on Brest.

Dave Bryant, I reckon that we can't blame the French for all the Falkland losses. After all, the Americans sold them A4 Skyhawk attack aircraft and much else, the Germans sold them Roland Anti-Aircraft missiles, and submarines, the Belgians sold them their rifles and machine-guns, etc. Oh, and who sold them Canberra bombers and Type 42 Destroyers ?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:23 PM

HuwG - Victory went into dry dock (IIRC) in the 1930's - She had been used as a hulk till then. Fair comment on the sticks though. Now I wonder if we can find enough seasoned pine to make up the spars in time !!!

LTS - Anne Bolyn was chopped with a French Sword, at her own request. Now theres a considerate husband for you !

Gareth

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Les from Hull
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 06:39 PM

Most of those 32pdrs were made of wood on my last visit. I understand the iron ones were melted down during WW1. But I imagine 1870 frigate spars wouldn't be too wrong for a 1745 first rate, at least they're not 1745 frigate spars. I think the main problem would be floating.

There was a raised plaque on the quarterdeck indicating where Nelson fell. I'm not surprised, I nearly tripped over it myself.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM

Funny - On my last visit to Pompey I thought, tho I could be open to correction, that the great guns were made of fiberglass.

That is no problem, many of the Guns were cast in South Wales, and shipped round to Plymouth, Pompey and the Medway bases. I am sure that Corus at Llanwern or Port Talbot could oblidge.

Little known fact - In the 1800's the Crawshay family of Merthyr, and the Keens of Dowlais were busy casting cannon for the Navy and Army, what was not known too wildey is that they were also casting cannon for the frogs. These were being smuggled into France, with the full complicity of the Crawshay's.

When this was discouvered no legal action for treason was taken, on the grounds that any prosecution would have to rely upon the words of smugglers.

Hmmm ! The Arms trade never changes.

"Oh the Redcoats went to Spain,
They fought on Tavaler's plain,
But the French Guns they defie,
Came from Merthyr on the sly,"

"Have you ever saw etc."

Gareth

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:03 PM

Leadfingers - that'll be your local landlocked HMS Northwood, Middlesex, I take it...

Gareth and LtS - the recent ITV dramatisation about Henry VIII (Ray Winstone) showed Anne Boleyn (Helen Bonham-Carter) having her head chopped off with a sword rather than axe.   

There was a brief item on the radio last week (Today, BBC Radio 4) that suggested that the EU are proposing that member states should re-name places called after battle sites to avoid causing distress to visitors from the defeated nations.... so no more Trafalgar Square or Waterloo station. (IIRC, Winston Churchill gave deliberate instructions that the train bearing his coffin to Bladon should depart from Waterloo, so that General de Gaulle would have to see the train off from Waterloo.)

There's also the matter of the 60th anniversary of the D-day landings next year.

Kitty

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:11 PM

We should definitely rename Waterloo. I propose La Belle Alliance

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:22 PM

Now lets not anoy the frogs !

Let us rename Waterloo after a recent French Battle, personally I would favour thier magnificent victory in Vientnam - Dien Bien Pho (SP?), or possibly Sedan, or Oran.

But then Flanders and Swan sang about it rather well -

"Vive de Gaulle!

This old man, he played one,
He played knick-knack at Verdun.
Cognac, Armagnac, Burgundy and Beaune,
This old man came rolling home.

This old man, World War Two,
He told Churchill what to do,
Free French general, crosses of Lorraine,
He came rolling home again.

This old man, he played trois,
Vive la France, la France c'est moi!
Gimcrack governments, call me if you please:
Colombey les deux Eglises.

This old man, he played four,
Choose de Gaulle or civil war!
Come back president, govern by decree,
Referendum, oui, oui, oui!

This old man, he played five,
France is safe: I'm still alive.
Plastique, Pompidou, sing the Marseillaise,
Algerie, n'est pas francaise!

This old man, he played six,
France and England, they don't mix.
Eytie, Benelux, Germany, and Me:
that's my market recipe.

This old man, sept et huit,
NATO give me back my fleet!
--- --- Adenauer ratified in Bonn.
One old man goes on and on.

[the --- --- is an unrenderable
"tsk" sort of sound; in context
it is evidently a substitute for
"get stuffed!"]

This old man, nine and ten,
He'll play knick till God knows when,
Cognac, Armagnac, Burgundy and Beaune,
This old man thinks he's Saint Joan.


Thank god for the Welsh Lomgbow.

Gareth

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:35 PM

But Flanders and Swann also wrote "The English are best" which was / is specifically and ironically derogatory about the Welsh, Irish, Scots and French, and other Europeans. ("And crossing the Channel one cannot say much for....") It's also implicitly derogatory about the English. (Who apparently don't practise beforehand.)

Kitty

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:54 PM

That song was properly entitled A Song of Patriotic Prejudice, which in itself makes the point clear.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 07:56 PM

Luckily for the British fleet sailing to the South Atlantic, the bombs which actually hit them that had been bought from Britain tended to fail to go off.

Vive la France!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 08:02 PM

Gosh how times have changed - Nelson, what a guy...!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:37 AM

The bombs failed to explode because the pilots were going in too low.
The BBC helpfully pointed out the problem and the fuses were reset, to great affect.
Keith.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:50 AM

I reckon we should capture French cargo boats, and set fire to any frozen lamb on board. If their tactics are still the same, we shouldn't have much trouble getting close: many of them closed up their gunports to keep out boarders, so our ships were able to come right aongside. And board.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 08:58 AM

Kitty Yes Good old Northwood The Senior Rates Mess was renamed the Gundeck of H.M.S. Pickle,with lots of reading of despatches from the original,a smashing atmosphere and lots of approval for the music provided by us, and they want us back next year.Up the Navy.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Wotcha
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 12:00 PM

Time for a song:

Come all you bold seamen

Where ever you're bound

And always let Nelson's proud memory go round ...

Cheers,

Brian

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 01:21 PM

Remember, for the Irish and the Scots the French are traditionally seen as allies.

And also for the Americans, until many of them came over all of a tizz when France refused to cave in over Iraq. Which, from a country which has used its veto time after time to block majority Security Council resolutions, and is still doing so, is perhaps a bit rich.

Commemorating Trafalgar? I'd vote for filling the fountains in Trafalgar Square with wine. Maybe the French would supply the wine as a gesture of friendship, which might shut up some of the carpers. (Perhaps jointly with the Germans.) If Ken Livingstone promises that, it might help him get reelected.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Gareth
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM

Ahhhh ! Kevin- have you no sense of History.

BTW for the confused - HMS Pickle brought home the news of Trafalgar.

The gun deck was where 'Jack' lived, and died.

Gareth'

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:21 PM

I have indeed. And in my history the French have never been the enemy.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: The Walrus
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:24 PM

Herga Kitty,

"...There was a brief item on the radio last week (Today, BBC Radio 4) that suggested that the EU are proposing that member states should re-name places called after battle sites to avoid causing distress to visitors from the defeated nations.... so no more Trafalgar Square or Waterloo station. ..."

Yet again, I believe the official concerned was French, so I say fine, but let the French show the way, remove all references to Austerlitz, Iena(Jena), Auerstadt from Paris - oh and rename L'Arc de Triomphe (after all it was named for Napoleon's triumphs over other Europeans), then perhaps we should think about renaming bits of London

"...There's also the matter of the 60th anniversary of the D-day landings next year..."

And, of course the outbreak of the Great War.

Walrus

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:43 PM

And Guy Fawkes. I've got an idea how we could commemorate that one...

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Leadfingers
Date: 23 Oct 03 - 07:48 PM

Kevin. I wont ask !!!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Blowzabella
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:34 PM

Well, it's a year closer - anyone got any more thoughts on the subject?

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: el_punkoid_nouveau
Date: 04 Oct 04 - 04:47 PM

I aim to learn a few more songs about our Nel, and his battles.

I also plan to make the pilgrimage to Pompey for Oct 21st - His Toniness may wimp out and not declare a public holiday, but we should make sure it is celebrated properly.

epn

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: johnross
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:43 AM

It would be nice to convince the BBC to either release or license the "Bold Nelson's Praise" radio programme they did for the 150th anniversary. It's a musical play, set on the deck of a ship of the line on the night of Nelson's funeral. The singers include A.L.Lloyd, Ewan MacColl, Stan Kelly, Isla Cameron and several others.

I have a copy, but it really ought to be in wider circulation.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: pavane
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:38 AM

In the Flanders & Swan song above, I think the tsk sound is supposed to be a kiss

I think a similar (maybe the same) meeting was described by David Frost as 'The week-old meeting of two weak old men'

I recall a story about Woodrow Wyatt, who was asked by a French official how he spelled his name.
The answer:

"Waterloo Ypres Agincourt Trafalgar Trafalgar."

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Dead Horse
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 08:57 AM

I fear that the only way in which we may legally sink some French nowadays, is to drink their wine.
Personally, I prefer German!
But if there any good lookin' wimmen called "Hardy" that's willin', I don't mind havin' a snog or three.........

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Schantieman
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:38 AM

My understanding of the way Nelson was brought home was that he was in a brandy cask. His blood stained it darker, so it looked like rum. When the Marines who were guarding the cask sampled the contents (as Marines will) they assumed it was rum. Hence Nelson's Blood for rum in the mob. And a drop of it certainly wouldn't do us any harm right now.

How about a Trafalgar Folk Festival? We could run trips round the harbour (I could try and get a yacht for a few days).

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:54 AM

Hijack French lorries as they come ashore at Dover and burn their contents; blow up a French ship in harbour, regardless of the saftey of anyone aboard; set off a nuclear test ... in short, do the same things the French do to show the entente is still cordiale.

Steve

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:09 AM

A quick Google reveals some ideas already in progress. I see that nice Mr Blair (a Briton, but not an Englishman!) has decided we should play it down a bit so as not to upset the French.

(The Scots were always a bit Francophilic, weren't they? I've always believed that God gave us the French because otherwise we'd have to make fun of the Germans or the Belgians, and where's the fun in that? Salut les crapauds! Voici les rosbifs!)

Steve
PS It means Hiya Froggies, here come the Brits, to save you asking.

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: GUEST,Mingulay
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:21 AM

There is only one way. Drink several bottles of Pussers rum whilst heartily toasting Horatio all the while amassing a fleet off Trafalgar to go and turn the bloody French into toast - again. The trouble is that they are so far up their own arses it takes a long time to get through to them. Hang on I'll have a word with Tony Blair, he's up there with them. Perhaps he'll have a word?

Steve Parkes - I like your translation!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 11:37 AM

Thanks Mingulay -- I feel I'm getting une prise on the lingo!

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Charley Noble
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 12:55 PM

I really like the idea of training a whole new crew to sail the Victory, and firing off a few broadsides. If the ship then falls apart and sinks, still, what a glorious end!

Sadly, there will be no call for shantymen aboard, given the Royal Navy's policy of prohibiting work songs aboard naval vessels. But there should be plenty of opportunity ashore in the pubs to revive the glorious old drinking songs and ballads of the time.

So, who knows where the major celebration will be? Portsmouth most likely, but would someone clarify so we can set our travel plans appropriately.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: How to commemorate Trafalgar bicentenary
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 01:51 PM

The International Festival of the Sea is back in Portsmouth next year at the end of July. So I should think that the 200th Anniversary of Nelson's death would be high on the agenda there?