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BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View
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Subject: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ebbie Date: 04 May 05 - 08:51 PM It is well known in the US that Greg Palast is a hardhitting, opinionated, controversial journalist. He can be hard to take, at the same time I have never heard of his being deceitful or extraordinarily manipulative. That said, here is what he has to say: "Mark my words: Tony Blair won't be re-elected Thursday. However, he will remain in office. " Do You Agree? And that's what he has to say about that... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Peace Date: 04 May 05 - 08:54 PM It is not coming up, Ebbie. FYI. Might be just me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST Date: 04 May 05 - 08:56 PM http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/050405A.shtml |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Peace Date: 04 May 05 - 08:58 PM Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST,Jon Date: 04 May 05 - 08:58 PM here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ebbie Date: 04 May 05 - 09:33 PM Thanks, guys. I don't know what went wrong. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ron Davies Date: 04 May 05 - 10:06 PM Wall St Journal seems to think he will be re-elected, but with a smaller majority--which will likely mean Brown takes over sooner rather than later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST Date: 05 May 05 - 02:55 PM I should think by now that the BBC should be able to project a winner. Have they? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 05 May 05 - 03:33 PM I have said this many times before, but only Big Mick has really taken me up on it. Britain's foreign policy is effectively none of Tony Blair's (or any other Brit PM's) business. Things like that are decided in the White House. Blair's views on going to war or not would have had no weight either way unless Britain had undertaken the momentous step of uncoupling our foreign policy from US interests. In my view we should. However, I do not underestimate the poitical dangers of instituting an independent UK foreign policy - and picking up the bill for it. Shooting Blair for being the bearer of bad news is simply shooting the messenger. Any other British PM of my lifetime would have done exactly as he did. It is his job to do what is required - not to like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Linda Kelly Date: 05 May 05 - 03:55 PM polls do not close until 10.00pm and it is barely 9.00 pm now Doug-come back later... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Linda Kelly Date: 05 May 05 - 03:58 PM I have read the article-please God let this not be an example of journalistic apprailsal in the US -what simplistic twaddle. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Liz the Squeak Date: 05 May 05 - 07:52 PM Looks horribly like it may be coming true.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST Date: 05 May 05 - 10:29 PM Tories lost....thank God! Blair took a kicking and can't last long as PM. Could have been a hell of a lot worse considering. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Peace Date: 05 May 05 - 10:35 PM http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/05/06/news/brit.php Story here as of four hours ago. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: CarolC Date: 05 May 05 - 11:40 PM What an elegant system. Not at all like our Rock'em Sock'em Robots, US version of politics. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Boab Date: 06 May 05 - 03:29 AM An "elegant system"? Something like a 70-seat majority on 36% of the vote? I t was a good result for Britain, and a smack in the gob for Phoney Tony [majority more than halved]. But "democratic? --No way! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Paco Rabanne Date: 06 May 05 - 03:37 AM Proportional Representation is the true path! Not likely to happen though is it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: ard mhacha Date: 06 May 05 - 03:49 AM The invasion of Iraq has come back to haunt Blair, the loss of around 100 seats, proof indeed that it effected the Labour vote, the lowest percentage 36% in voting history in the UK, and Labour stronghold Wales having the lowest Labour vote from 1920. To add salt to Blair`s wounds, George Galloway took the London seat of Bethnal Green and Bow, the defiant George told Blair it was time to quit. Make no mistake this was a vote against the Iraq war, time for the lying smarmy Blair to go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: ard mhacha Date: 06 May 05 - 03:51 AM That 36% was the lowest ever vote for a winning party. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST,Paul Burke Date: 06 May 05 - 04:16 AM alanabit: your lifetime must be much shorter than mine, and included mostly Maggie and her spawn. " Any other British PM of my lifetime would have done exactly as he did. It is his job to do what is required - not to like it." Harold Wilson, Vietnam. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 06 May 05 - 04:30 AM The Labour Party won a decisive victory for the third time in succession. The Conservatives regained forty or fifty of their (formerly) safe seats. The turnout was similar to last time. I have not yet seen all the full results, but the Conservative vote may have risen slightly, although it does not look as if there has been any resurgence of enthusiasm for a Conservative government. The Iraq war clearly did damage Labour, probably causing many of its usual supporters to either abstain (more likely) or to vote for another party. In most cases, those former/usual Labour voters seem to have voted Lib Dem, although I have not yet seen enough statistics to back this up. This makes sense in a way, because although voters were angry at the war, they knew that Conservatives would have gone to war too. Personally, I hated the war down to my guts. However, the Labour government, which is probably more respected than it is loved, has four years to tackle the issue of how we will align our foreign policy and our long term monetary policy. Of those who voted, more of them wished to entrust that task to Labour than to the alternative. The Conservatives will feel that they have won back a lot of ground, but unless they come up with policies which appeal to a larger proportion of the electorate, that could prove a dangerous illusion. The demographics are against them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST,Jon Date: 06 May 05 - 04:44 AM I fear the margin is too big. T Bliar did sound a bit "we must listen/learn" but I've heard a few labour MPs quite boyant about around 60 majority, record 3rd term and are taking it as a general vote of confidence. I think in a months time they will be the same again. At least where I am we remain Lib Dem - more so in fact - Norman Lamb's majority was about 450 last time and now it's 10,000+. I've just heard him on the local news. He has pointed out that it is ridiculous that a party should have a good working majority with only 35% of the vote. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 May 05 - 05:19 AM Not quite sure where Alanabit studied math, but from what I can remember of my school years, 35% of the vote does not equate to more people wanting labour than not. The first past the post system virtually ensures that the majority do not win, no matter which party comes out on top. At least, as Charles Kennedy said, we are reaching a point where three parties have some influence, and if he departs from the Libdems traditional policy of supporting Labour right or wrong, and cherry picks the best policies of both sides, they could well be electable in four years time. At the least, we would be able to judge where they stand on vital issues, something they have signally failed to communicate thus far. Mr. Kennedy please note, if you want my vote in 2009/2010. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 May 05 - 05:24 AM BTW. I don't know if our US contingent have noticed, but Tony ghas just been presented with a golden opportunity to rush Britain into a European Federation, so the next time Dubya wants to go to war, he may have to ask Germany and France if Britain can come out to play. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 06 May 05 - 06:17 AM Don, my imperfect grasp of mathematics certainly ensured that I would (rightly) never be entrusted with important engineering decisions! I might have phrased things better by saying that more people wanted a Labour government than a Conservative one. I actually agree that our present electoral system, with its exaggerated majorities, needs changing. There is no way that Thatcher would have got away with her sweeping privatisations had PR been in place. It would place an effective brake on any government's more extreme policies. On several issues, the Lib Dems had more atractive policies (to me) than Labour. I would certainly have voted for them had I been living in a constituency in which they had a chance of edging out the Tories. As I am very pro European, the reason you gave for getting the UK into European Union more deeply, was very alluring. It would indeed put put more clear, blue water between the sillier US policies and ours. I detect a note of irony in your post though! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ramblingsid Date: 06 May 05 - 07:22 AM PR is certainly the better way. I am struck by the fact that the Tories' share of the vote is pretty much unchanged but that their number of seats has risen. People switched their votes from Labour to the Lib Dems and woke up with a Tory MP in some cases. Red face day for them methinks. Listening "Gorgeous" George Galloway's acceptance speech last night I thought he should have stood in Barking! As mad as a hatter! Ex MP Tony Banks was virulent in his condemnation of Galloway. Said that he had capitalised on the anti black, anti jewish anti women sentiment among the muslim population to oust the Black/Jewish woman MP Oona King. Its a great shame as King was a first rate MP by all accounts (and I believe had the support of Billy Bragg). But the upshot is that the SWP in effect now has an MP. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ron Davies Date: 06 May 05 - 07:44 AM At least Tony has been given strong incentive to distance himself from further idiocies of the alleged "leader of the free world". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 06 May 05 - 08:09 AM We are being a bit naughty and drifting off the thread theme here, as it is supposed to be an American view! Still, I certainly agree with your last comment Ron. On the subject of America, I would like to say that I am no more anti American per se than most of our US friends here. Many of them share my views on their current leadership. I thought that was a telling comment about the Tories share of the vote not rising. They have not essentially become more popular, as I and Ramblingsid have pointed out. What has happened is that some Labour supporters have become alienated, which has had the effect of keeping many poeople at home (or in the Lib Dem camp). Labour's way forward must surely lie with trying to win back its own natural supporters, rather than to try to win the votes of a dying breed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: DMcG Date: 06 May 05 - 08:13 AM People switched their votes from Labour to the Lib Dems and woke up with a Tory MP in some cases. Red face day for them methinks. I'm not so sure about that. In my area, last time the voting was marginal, with Lab and Con both around the 15000 mark, with Labour ahead by about 1500, and with Lib Dem around 4000. Plenty of people I know voted for Lib Dem fully aware that the only likely outcome was that the Conservatives would win. However, they wished to see a much smaller majority for Labour and recognised that having a Conservative in their area was the price to be paid. Having decided that, the only choice was a direct or indirect vote for the Conservatives. Roughly speaking, those who were 'old Labour' found voting for Conservative impossible and so voted Lib Dem well aware of the consequences. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: ard mhacha Date: 06 May 05 - 08:31 AM The bare facts are that one in five of the people voted for Blair, knowing that Proportinal Repesentation is very diffucult for the agerage Brit to understand, this will have to come and it will be back to school for the UK electorate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ramblingsid Date: 06 May 05 - 09:07 AM A mailing from the Make Votes Count campaign dropped through my letter-box this morning. Coincidence? I think not! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ramblingsid Date: 06 May 05 - 09:27 AM I have no doubt that what DMcG says is correct. There were an awful lot of differing motivations and intentions at work when us voters were stood in the polling booth with the stubby pencil in our hands. As a Labour member who finds himself in agreement with some of the Lib Dem policies I was however disappointed that the Lib Dems did not gain more seats than they did - and I feel that the Tories did not deserve the little progress that they have made. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: HuwG Date: 06 May 05 - 09:28 AM Since Tony Blair has stated that he will (probably) stand down as PM before the next election, Labour are almost guaranteed a fourth term in 2009, with Gordon Brown as party leader. (The Conservative leader, Michael Howard, will also almost certainly step down, so Oliver Letwin will probably be Tory leader then. Charles Kennedy will most probably still lead the Lib Dems.) Incidentally, my own area, the High Peak, stayed Labour with a much reduced majority: 2005 2001 I won't say how I voted, but I'm not a Conservative and I hope God isn't a Liberal Democrat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ramblingsid Date: 06 May 05 - 09:39 AM I would be delighted if Letwin was the next party leader - he is so gaffe prone!! David Davis must be a contender - and don't forget that Rifkin (sic) is back in the Commons as well |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: TheBigPinkLad Date: 06 May 05 - 11:40 AM knowing that Proportinal Repesentation is very diffucult for the agerage Brit to understand Is this the only song in your repertoire? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST,Loony leprechaun Date: 06 May 05 - 11:42 AM Knowing that spelling the word average is hard to spell for the agerage irishman, that and keeping potatoes for the winter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Lowden Jameswright Date: 06 May 05 - 11:45 AM Theresa May? May as well - they've flatlined and need another novelty act. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 06 May 05 - 03:10 PM Ironic indeed, Alan, as I am no keener on having our decisions made by Brussells, than by Bush. I am British! I will always be British1 I want to remain British, and I can see no way in which that can be reconciled with being ruled by a European Federal government. I have already seen my perfectly good British passport disappear, to be replaced by one which proclaims me to be a European Community Citizen. WRONG! This thread is, as a recent posting points out, supposed to be an American view. So, I ask our American cousins, "What would your reaction be to a president who intended to hand over US sovereignty to a foreign power, and merge your country into a federation with a different flag, a different currency, and a mishmash of different, and conflicting cultures? I apologise for the thread drift, but the point I am trying to make is that the UK could learn a lot from America about unashamed love of country, and respect for the heritage to which one was born. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: CarolC Date: 06 May 05 - 03:17 PM What would your reaction be to a president who intended to hand over US sovereignty to a foreign power I guess that would depend on which foreign power. It could be an improvement. and merge your country into a federation with a different flag, a different currency, and a mishmash of different, and conflicting cultures With the exception of the flag and the currency, this is what we have now. A mishmash of different and often conflicting cultures. Many of us are pretty used to it by now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: DougR Date: 06 May 05 - 04:14 PM It appears to me that Mr. Palast bit off a bit more than he can chew. Another example of a Mudcatter presenting as evidence of one's point of view an article available on the Internet where anybody can post anything, and count on at least some people believing it. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST,TIA Date: 06 May 05 - 04:41 PM Okay, don't believe a word of Palast's *opinions*. But, did you read the Rycroft memo? Oh wait, that's right, Dan Rather forged that too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: DougR Date: 06 May 05 - 05:01 PM Rycroft Memo: I haven't the foggiest idea what that is. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Ebbie Date: 06 May 05 - 10:02 PM Alanabit and other Brits, as the one who started this thread let me assure you that I did not mean for it to be an "American View", other than the article from Greg Palast, an American. Hearing your views is most interesting. DougR, take another look at that article- Palast said that Blair will remain in office but that if the winning margin narrows (which it did) he won't be staying in office. So- in what way did Palast "bite off more than he can chew"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Bobert Date: 06 May 05 - 10:15 PM Palast is probably one of the world's best journalists... He get's the evidence before going to press... His book, "The Best Democracy Money Can Buy" is impecable in it's research... It is like old time journalism where one goes out and tracts down the facts... Like Columbo with a pad... Problem is that the folks in power love to try to make the folks who are exposing them look like imposters... Problem for Blair and Bush... Greg Palast is the real deal... He has the good on both of them... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Richard Bridge Date: 06 May 05 - 10:27 PM Don, I assume you know the quote "Patriotism, the last refuge of the scoundrel". The attitude of "My country, right or wrong" is surely now outdated. Since Robert Marshall-Andrews happily saved his seat (just), what we really need is to repossess the Labour party from "New Labour" and put him in charge of it (with a bit of help from Tony Benn). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: GUEST,Likrington Date: 07 May 05 - 01:42 AM Just for the record - Tony Blair made it crystal clear well before election day that he would not fight the next election as leader. He will not be staying in office. The questions now are when he will resign, who will replace him and how Labour will ensure a smooth a smooth transition to the new leader. The favourite to replace him is Gordon Brown. Gordon has a towering, glowering presence who doesn't count highly in the charm/charisma stakes. He is highly respected for his economic competence, not as an end in itself, but to further the causes he believes in - reducing poverty in this country and the world. Although a friend of the free market and enterprise, one suspects that at heart he is also an old-fashioned, Old Labour socialist. Many people have said that with Gordon as Prime Minister, the Chancellor's job would be impossible - but others would reply "Balls". One of Gordon's problems is that in UK leadership elections, the early favourite rarely wins. Very interesting to see how it all pans out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 07 May 05 - 02:53 AM I missed Paul Burke's post earlier. Yes, I will happily acknowledge that you must all be many many years older than I am. (Chuckle). I knew someone would pick me up on Harold Wilson's refusal to go to Viet Nam. I am afraid, however, that other, more resent episodes loom more largely in my memory. If I recall rightly, the Prime Minister at the time did not despatch a task force to Grenada when a foreign power invaded it. The best descripiton I have heard of Britain's policy came from Dennis Healey: The Americans say,"Jump!" The government says, "How high?" Don and I should have this discussion elsewhere, but I can't resist the temptation to point out that being European makes me no less British than being a human does. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 07 May 05 - 03:00 AM ...more resent... Oh my spelling! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 07 May 05 - 05:02 AM Richard, There are many on mudcat who can attest to the fact that I am as willing to criticise my country, when wrong, as to praise it when right. Many Europhiles would like to see love of country and heritage buried, as this would facilitate the absorption of Britain into Europe as a subordinate state in a large federation of, mainly, former enemies. Europe, IMHO, already exerts far more influence on our domestic affairs than is proper (down to the level of quality and labelling of foodstuffs). It is not by chance that economic migrants pass straight through Europe, and head for this country. We sink millions of pounds into the community for very little visible benefit. If these views make me a scoundrel, so be it, I shall remain a vociferous opponent of those who wish to achieve by absorption what they have failed to achieve by invasion. I heartily agree about Robert tho'. It would be better for this country to have a genuine socialist party to balance the Tories, who are much too right wing even for my taste. Alan, You are of course right about the jump, tho' I believe the answer should read "How high, and in which direction?" On Europe, however, I feel your comment is a little naive. When they control our judiciary, our finances, and our foreign policy, you may wish to rethink that comment about being human. The rest of the human race has never aspired to that level of control. I strongly feel that we should retain sovereignty, and the furthest I would go with Europe is monetary parity. In fact I would campaign for removal of several current constraints. Europe was started as a common market, and that is all it should be. Has everybody forgotten the truckloads of barbecued sheep that resulted from our attempts to sell in that market? Don T. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Prospects of Tony Blair -American View From: alanabit Date: 07 May 05 - 05:47 AM Don, I have sent a PM. |
