BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:00 PM

Since there are already several posts, I will make the following observations. I grew up in the midwest USA, & have not seen or heard of this. I have lived in many cities & attended their parades. I've played in Ceili bands since I was a kid, & participated in many years of St. Pat's festivities. I have always seen the flag of Ireland, and people wearing green.
   Many times people like to post something such as the above. Just because "guest" proclaims something to be an "American custom" does not make it so. In the future, when some such thread is begun, if we regular "Catters" do not post to the thread, it will simply fade into oblivion.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:05 PM

Ummmm, bitchin' about anon guests are a better fit in in the litterbox here, methinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: mg
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:08 PM

Well I have lived in Washington, Virginia, Alabama and NEwfoundland and I can assure you that it is very common at least in Washington. It is usually done in a teasing way and people don't really realize it could be offensive or provoking but it has gone on forever and is not new. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:10 PM

You know, this is just the usual Mudcat crap. Now the bandwagon is filling up with members crawling out of the woodwork, who can't wait to get their lashes in on me, because catspaw tooted his horn.

Apparently, it's a slow day for fart jokes.

It IS American folklore, people, regardless of what you think of me, or whether you have heard of it or not.

If it is mentioned in the Chicago Sun Times, Poynter Online, and there are articles on sale at CafePress.com, all about wearing/not wearing orange on St. Patrick's Day, I don't really give two hoots what the rest of you have/haven't heard of when it comes to this subject.

Why should I, or anyone else for that matter, believe any of you more than me?

Oh, because catspaw said so?

Sure. And he, after all, is a real authority on Irish American folklore, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:13 PM

Thank you mg, for speaking up. Considering your feelings about and lifelong participation in the holiday being discussed, as well as your location in one of the American cities with a fairly substantial and active Irish American community, I trust your words here will be heeded.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:19 PM

"It IS American folklore, people, regardless of what you think of me, or whether you have heard of it or not."

So St Patrick is American is he?
I see he didn't drive all the snakes out of the USA!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:20 PM

Shit stirring still, Giok?

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 03:33 PM

Orange is every bit as much an Irish colour as Geeen, as any glance at the Irish flag will demonstrate. And that's why the flag was made that way.

True enough there's been a bit of a tribal dispute about what political arrangements would be the best way to organise things on the shared island, but that's a temporary disagreement which can't last that much longer - another one or two generations. But Green or Orange, both sides are Irish, and the day belongs to both of them equally.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:00 PM

Yup and all under my own name good isn't it?
It's called standing up and being counted and it's what all honest people do!
Giok ☺☻

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:07 PM

Shit stirring under your own name is what honest people do?

Glad I don't live in your world.

McGrath, you didn't read the first twenty or so posts again, did you?
Just piled in on the lemming bandwagon, without a clue as to what the thread is about.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:12 PM

And let me be merciful, and pronounce this thread as officially dead.

Killed by the usual suspects--Mudcat members with an inflated sense of their own opinions mattering.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:44 PM

Bullshit

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Willie-O
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 04:50 PM

I'm with Thurg. I live in rural eastern Ontario, where there are still a few active Orange Lodges, and a large number of small decrepit former Orange halls in small hamlets, which are no longer used as such. I've never heard of wearing orange on March 17th as a "custom"--and I'm in a staunchly Presbyterian and conservative neighbourhood that takes great stock in pride in tradition.

I had a look through that orangenet website linked above. Interesting stuff if not exactly forthcoming. They present the Orange Institution as an alliance of conservative Protestants of various denominations,who give lip service to tolerance of other faiths, but enjoy "pointing out errors" in doctrine.

The bottom line is, St. Patrick's Day is not their day, is it?   
The Orange day is July 12th(?) the Battle of the Boyne. They celebrate "Unionism" with the British crown, and the Protestant religions. Wearing orange as a statement on Mar 17th seems like just pissing on someone else's parade.

W-O

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Mar 06 - 05:21 PM

July 12th is Orangeman's Day. Easter Monday is the day for celebrating the Republican tradition.

St Patrick's Day is for everyone who admits to being Irish, among others who just feel it's a good day to join in celebrating.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 04:00 AM

Orange connection - King William of Orange - a region of Holland, the Dutch prince who was invited to be king of England when we ran out of Protestant heirs. Both he and his wife, his cousin Mary, were grandchildren of Charles 1st. Mary was Charles II Protestant neice, daughter of his (Catholic) brother James. Parliament invited her to become Queen and she insisted that William become King.

To wear orange is to declare yourself not Irish but English and Protestant.


"American Irish Catholics of wearing orange only" - you wouldn't get a good Catholic of ANY background wearing orange - it's usually seen as a pagan colour (and you thought pagans were all black!).

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 06:43 AM

St, Patricks day to me is about children dressing up, church goers honouring a Saint and local parades that have no connection with any political group.

It has always been a bigger celebration overseas than in Ireland. To me it´s another day of the week and good luck to anyone who enjoys the day in whatever way they wish to celebrate it.

And the same for Orange order members on the 12th of July, even through it´s a celebration I never wished to take part in !

I myself celebrate Easter Sunday and hope never to cause anyone offence.

Sadly this thread has went a little of track. Everyone should be allowed to celebrate there own tradition in their own way as long as it keeps within the bounds of not causing anyone offence or taking it to a point of flag waving for the sake of stirring up hate.

We can all do the same here folks.

By the way I am in Spain for the last month and coming to you from an internet cafe. The Spanish didn´t celebrate the day, I just lay in 80 degrees and enjoyed the sun !

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:24 AM

"to the Ancient Order of Hibernians, I assure you the wearing of orange on Paddy's Day would most definitely be perceived as a bigoted affront"

The AOH complaining aboutbigotry?

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:28 AM

I am not a big Hibs fan Paul, I totally agree with what you say here.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: GUEST,robomatic
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 07:44 AM

I've never heard of anyone wearing orange on purpose FOR or AGAINST Saint Patrick's Day. sounds like a troll. Orange has OTHER meanings anyway. Gonna start throwing stones at electric trucks?

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 04:04 PM

A rather naive American such as myself might deduce from the fact that the flag of the Republic of Ireland consists of GREEN, WHITE, AND ORANGE, that orange is therefore a perfectly acceptable color in Ireland. Moreover, one might suppose, reasoning by analogy, that since on American patriotic holidays we decorate with red, white, and blue--none of those colors having any special significance by themselves--on a holiday that celebrates Irishness, we ought to decorate with green, white, and orange.

As a matter of fact, I've never *noticed* anyone wearing orange on St. Patrick's day, but I can't swear it never happens. If I did see it, I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that it was meant as an affront.

Don't Italians and Italian-Americans celebrate with red, white, and green? Mexicans, too, for that matter.

If Irish people consider orange so offensive, why did they put it on their flag?

My best guess it that they put it there because it was supposed to represent the peaceful coexistence and cooperation of Catholics and Protestants. That's a cause I could support. It's enough to make me think maybe I ought to wear some orange (and an equal amount of green, of course) next St. Patrick's day.

Now let me tell you a story. I used to own a bright solid-orange shirt. It wasn't meant to have any political significance whatever. I liked the color, that's all. I happened to wear it one St Patrick's day, totally by accident. (When I got dressed that day, it simply didn't occur to me that it was St Patrick's day.) My wife (who happens to be of Swedish and Norwegian ancestry but plays in a Celtic band) had a gig that evening at a Knights of Columbus Hall. I went to hear her play. When I arrived and saw everybody dressed in green, I suddenly remembered my orange shirt. I decided to keep my coat on! I did, the whole time I was there. I didn't stay long.

Now, I don't know that anyone would have been offended if I had taken my coat off, but I didn't want to take the chance. I didn't know anyone there, besides the band members, otherwise I might have asked. Looking back on it, I wish I *had* asked.

By the way, although everyone present was pretending to be Irish, I don't believe they necessarily were Irish. From the neighborhood we were in, I would expect a fair number of Poles and maybe a few Italians. Certainly they were nearly all Catholic; that's what K of C is all about.

I don't know what the person who started this thread had in mind, but I don't particularly care whether he was acting in a troll capacity. This is an interesting topic. For years now, I have wondered what would have happened if I had taken my coat off.

When I told my Irish Catholic brother-in-law the story, we had a good laugh.

By the way, I had worn that shirt at work all that day. No one mentioned it. Of course, they had all seen me wear it before.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 20 Mar 06 - 08:24 PM

In Minnesota, there is an Irish pipe band of long standing called the Brian Boru Pipe Band. They proudly wear a kilt made, not of tartan, but of a solid brownish-orange color (or orangish brown?) which they call "saffron." (I thought saffron was more yellow.) They also wear green.

Here's a good picture of their uniform.

As you can see from their schedule, they play at both Irish and Scottish events, as well as public events of no particular ethnicity.

I don't think there is any political or religious significance to their choice of colors, beyond being "Irish." At least their web site doesn't mention religion or politics. And I don't believe they have ever provoked any hostility.

There is another band with the same name in Falmouth, Massachusetts, but I see they wear a green tartan, and no orange (or "saffron").

Funny, their web sites don't have links to each other. One is "dot-com" and the other is "dot-org".

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Scoville
Date: 21 Mar 06 - 11:15 AM

I just know that schoolmates and coworkers will pinch the Hell out of you if you don't wear green. (My pinching coworker was out sick but I wore green, and a pewter Celtic horse brooch, anyway because I was out of clean clothes.)



My Irish ancestors were Quakers so I guess rightfully I'd have to wear . . . gray. Not very festive.

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 22 Mar 06 - 09:05 AM

I had never heard of the pinching custom until I read this thread. Where does that happen? (I'm in the Midwest, USA)

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 06:11 AM

In Ireland marching pipe bands, for example at Croke Park GAA finals, always wear orange kilts.

For some strange reason most pictures I've seen of Irish bands in teh States seem to wear tartan...

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 12:04 PM

Spaw: I kinda wondered when someone was going to wake up to the fact that GUEST is simply stirring the pot. Did a pretty good job of it too!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Wearin' O' the Orange on Paddy's Day
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Mar 06 - 02:45 PM

Jim, thanks for the links. FIne lookin' pipers! That is a kind of dark saffron, imo. When I think saffron, I think of the Dalai Lama and other Tibetan monks...their robes are saffron, too, but brighter and lighter in shade.

We've always pinched in the Rocky Mountain West; are we the only region which does that? I think my kids experienced it, too, in New England, but I'll have to ask them for sure.