BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:37 AM

I haven't heard one Catter condone what these parents did, just the severity of the sentence... A couple hundred hours in community service working in a local alcohol treatment program would have been more appropriate...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 08:19 AM

Booze and teens mixed reasonably well in my life and in the lives of my contemporaries, and in the lives of my son and his contemporaries. Not always, but by and large. I think booze and teens probably mix better than cars and 16 year olds.
.................

As for "Joining the army doesn't destroy brain cells" - actually it can have precisely that effect, unfortunately. All depends where the kid gets shot.

.......................
As I understand it the law here would have been precisely the same if these young people had all been 20.
............................

I won't dispute that in the setting it was a stupid thing to have a party like this, just as it would have been in Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. You have to take some account of the customs and restrictions of the society in which you live.

But even allowing for that this was a shockingly brutal sentence. It appears that the parents were offered a 90 day sentence if they had pleaded guilty in a plea bargain - their penalty for fighting the case was for that to be increased to eight years. This was achieved by multiplying together the maximum laid down for the offence by the total number of young people involved. Eight years, reduced on appeal to 27 months. I suppose they should be grateful it wasn't increased...

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,AG
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:00 AM

"What if" one of the kids had a spare set of car keys, left and was killed after his parents has specifically called prior to the party to assure there would be no alcohol?

"Community service" too?

Prevention is a wonderful concept and in this case, the sentence should help promote it.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,meself
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

"I did later take Rachel aside and explain that it wasn't Strongbow, it was proper cider ... "


An important distinction, as the old song reminds us:


Oh, the picnic now is over,
And the boys again are sober,
And they'll only taste the cider for to know;
If it's hard they'll take it light,
If it's soft, they'll leave it quite,
But they'll not forget The Picnic at Gros Haut!

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:23 AM

All I know is I never encouraged my kids to drink either by word or action, and none have become alkies. In fact, I've never seen any of them take a drink.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:39 AM

I just look forward to the day when American youth can advance and become mature, responsible, even sophisticated drinkers, like the English LOL. Party on!

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:44 AM

Hey, we are having a secret meeting of Progressive Youth for advancement of society. Don't tell your parents. It's to protest political and cultural repression. It's in the woods near the dump behind the trailer park. My mom's bringing the booze for everybody. We can change the world, man.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:59 AM

And which side are you on, heric?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:01 AM

I'm all for drinking to excess, fighting and driving. I loved em all in my day. I don't see it as cultural advancement, that's all. And people do get hurt. Some very badly.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:34 AM

This business about alcohol law enforcement isn't puritanism--. In 1980, when Candy Lightener started MADD(Mothers Against Drunk Driving), there were 26,000 alcohol related traffic fatalities each year, with many times that number injured. The general attitude about drunk driving was a nod and a wink--after 27 years of lobbying and public education, law enforcement has increased, and people are less tolerant--the result is that alcohol related fatalities have fallen to around 15-16,000 per year,, which is still an apalling number--

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:21 AM

The thing that kills people is the driving.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:34 AM

I don't know why someone would have a keg party for
underage kids in their home anyway.

What the hell do they think universities are for?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: heric
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:40 AM

Exactly.

I didn't make that part up about kids escaping into the woods when the cops arrived. This was not a well chaperoned educational event. It was not a physiology experiment in a well controlled environment. She is not a progressive intellectual or freedom fighter martyred by a repressive society. This was just a BIG teenage piss-up.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:41 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:10 PM

"The thing that kills people is the driving."

NO - The thing that kills people is people driving drunk.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:26 PM

All road accidents are caused by drunk drivers? I wish that was true. If it were there would be a lot fewer road accidents than there actually are.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:38 PM

In America road accidents caused by drunk driving is the primary cause of teen deaths.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

Close, Ebbie. But not strictly correct.

Motor vehicle fatalities are the leading cause of deaths of
teens between 16 and 20. 25% or so involve alcohol. The rest
are caused by other things which seem to relate to being teens
behind the wheel, most specifically distraction or aggressive
driving.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:08 PM

Greg, your figures are probably correct, but I read that it was 31%, not 25, of teen accidents that were alcohol involved (2004)- and that's not figuring in the older drivers who may have been drinking and involved teens in an accident.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: alanabit
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:21 PM

It sounds like a rare old clash of cultures here. What surprises me here from the American side is the assumption that teenagers are likely to drink and drive. I do not deny that it happens in the UK, but I do not believe we work on the assumption that drunk teenagers will attempt to drive a car. I also believe that such an assumption would be unjustified. People do stupid things when they drink. However, I do not believe most teenagers get drunk when they drink beer. Some do and most do not.
In Germany, where I live, sixteen year olds can legally drink beer in a pub or a restaurant until either ten o' clock or midnight. They are not allowed spirits. Most teenagers drink responsibly for most of the time. The drinking age is eighteen.
I am struck by the assumption of the Americans that driving a car is the only practical form of transport. I assume that because of the greater distances, there is no alternative in many cases. I guess we just have a different culture in Europe and we find it puzzling that young people should be prevented from drinking at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:43 PM

Alanabit - Yes - you don't understand the culture. The point of this party was NOT what you think of as social drinking. When you get kids of this age together and give them beer in a party situation they're going to try to get drunk. I wasn't there - but does anyone really think that any of those kids stopped drinking after one beer? Or two?

But getting back to the woman in this case. She gambled and lost. She gambled that she wouldn't get caught. She got caught. She gambled that she wouldn't get a stiffer sentence than the 90 days she was offered. She should have taken the 90 days. She didn't - she lost. I can't feel sorry for her.

And even though it wasn't a crime she told lots of parents that there wasn't going to be beer at the party. If effect she said that those parents didn't know how to raise their own children - that their rules didn't count - and she was going to do what she damned well pleased. She lost. Tough luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Greg B
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:48 PM

It's not a 'clash of cultures' but rather different cultures and
geography and the consequences thereof.

The fact is that American kids are generally not legally permitted
to drink prior to age 21 in nearly every state (maybe all by now).
The reality is that from the age of 18, they 'get away' with it;
however the consequences can be very severe. In some states, a
teen who is arrested for drinking has his or her driving license
suspended for a period of time even if no driving was involved
in the offense!

One might argue that these kinds of restrictions and prohibitions
just lead to excesses--- rather than having a pint in the pub and
going on his way, the youth indulges in excesses of drink at parties
that are devoted to drink and precious little else.

One might argue that, but as I have said again and again in this
thread 'it is what it is.' American teens are the rankest amateurs
when it comes to alcohol consumption.

As to driving, the cultural taboo (as well as the legal consequences)
to driving under the influence seem to be much greater in Europe
than in the US. In the US, it's a matter of not getting caught rather
than in truly believing that it is a bad thing to do.

And yes, there is very little public transport here in the suburbs
where most of these events take place. And again, the stigma against
teen drinking may make the teen hesitate to ring up mum and dad and
say 'I've had a few beers, can you drive me home?' So the kid is apt
to try and 'get away' with driving after said few beers.

Into this cultural and societal state add a parent who thinks it
makes sense to buy a keg for 30 16-year-olds and it becomes a mess.

The society has to let it's sixteen-year-olds either drink properly,
or not drink properly. The in-betweens are what foul things up.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 03:49 PM

An interesting thought put out by Camille Paglia..my oh so favorite columnist...she said there is this thing with mothers attempting to keep their daughters juvenile so mothers won't appear to be aging...well, I guess this is the opposite..trying to be pals with the friends of your teens. Never works..never ever. mg oh someone will prove me wrong I am sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:21 PM

Putting aside the issue of drinking and teenagers, the thing that sticks out as really disturbing is this notion that justice is to be properly seen be a matter of gambling - plead guilty and get 90 days, fight the case and you get eight years.

Courts are supposed to be about hearing the evidence and convicting purely on the evidence, with no pressure being placed on defendants that could affect how they plead. That principle appears to have been thrown completely out of the window in cases like this, and many others.

"She gambled that she wouldn't get a stiffer sentence than the 90 days she was offered." Eight years.

It seems to me a pretty heavy indictment of any justice system where that kind of thing can truthfully be said. (And I know it happens in other places, not just the USA.)

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Wesley S
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:26 PM

She brought it on herself. She was very deliberate about breaking the law. That was her choice. No crime - no sentence.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:14 AM

There is a big difference between allowing your teens wine with dinner and buying cases of alcohol for 30 teen-agers and lying to their parents. Both my kids were allowed wine on special occasions and neither of them ever thought that getting drunk was something to do for entertainment. No lectures needed.

This is a matter of safety and consideration for others. I'd be furious if I found out someone was supplying my kids with enough alcohol to get them drunk.

btw - Nobody has mentioned if this party was co-ed. I'm not concerned about kids that drink but I am concerned about drunken parties. It puts alot of people at risk when nobody is in control.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:17 AM

"I'd be furious if I found out someone was supplying my kids with enough alcohol to get them drunk."

I'd be in jail if I found out something like that. Most likely manslaughter, but perhaps just simple assault with intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:35 AM

I hear that a Talebanesqe Louisiana town is threatening to lock people up for showing underwear above trousers.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 11:18 AM

I guess Superman had better stay well clear of that one then...

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:48 PM

Here is the ordinance involved. It's a lot broader than just saggy jeans: "It shall be unlawful for any person in any public place or in view of the public to be found in a state of nudity, or partial nudity, or in dress not becoming to his or her sex, or in any indecent exposure of his or her person or undergarments, or be guilty of any indecent or lewd behavior."

Here's the New York Times version

Should we take it that this is what the saying "Only in America" is meant to be about? Except it's not only in America this kind of thing seems to crop up, it's in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia as well. "... dress not becoming to his or her sex..."

Maybe The Handmaid's Tale should be read as prediction rather than as satirical fantasy.

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 01:50 PM

Shit, So does that mean no more panty hose on Friday nights?

Subject: RE: BS: Parents jailed by US Taleban Judge
From: alanabit
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 02:18 PM

Wesley and Greg: I guess that is fair enough. You do not expect young people in your country to drink responsibly and you think it is likely they will try to drive if they drink. I guess you know the culture, so I'll have to take your word for it. Inevitably your laws will reflect your culture.
We have our fair share of fools over here in Europe. However, we expect young people to be responsible on the whole. Certainly my nephew, who is eighteen, would not dream of drinking to impress people - let alone drive a car when he had been drinking. I am very glad that he is entrusted with full adult priveleges. He deserves them.
You frequently see a barrel of beer up at a party, where there are young people here. I have occasionally seen a couple of lads drink too much, but never all of them, or indeed even most of them. It would seem our cultures are very different.