BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism

Subject: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 03:41 AM

Guardian (UK) report

A scout troop is being investigated by the police after its members shouted death threats and racist abuse at Jewish war veterans during a remembrance parade.

Dressed in full uniform, the explorer scouts, who were taking part in Remembrance Sunday service in Romford, Essex were heard to repeatedly shout "Let's kill the Jews" at Jewish second world war veterans.

The head of the scouts in the area has issued a full apology for the incident, which was witnessed by a senior policeman standing a few feet away.

A Metropolitan police spokesman said the Met was investigating two allegations of "racially aggravated harassment" involving more than one member of the Romford explorer scout unit. He would not say how many scouts were involved.

The Rev Lee Sunderland, who was taking part in the service, expressed shock after hearing the scouts shout: "Here come the Jews, let's kill the Jews."

Other witnesses said the racists chants were started by a boy believed to be 15 years old.

Remembrance is not just about wearing a poppy four "our boys". It's something we must do 365 days a year, in our hearts, not one day a year on our lapels.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:09 AM

On the Radio 4 Today programme, the Scouts said that the boys would not be expelled, but would have to visit the synagogue to apologise. I think something more is needed. There is something very odd about the way those who did not start it felt it right to join in, so i would be concerned about the ethos of the group in matters other than antisemitism.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mr Happy
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:10 AM

aka Young BNP?

http://www.s230707592.websitehome.co.uk/romexp/

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 09:20 AM

Meanwhile, Swanley British Legion had to abandon their usual parish church for the Remembrance Service and have a Drum Head service in the local function rooms because the new vicar would not, as the previous incumbent had, allow the Legion chaplain, a vicar from a nearby village church to officiate in "his" church.

And what was this chaplain's offence?

She lacked the requisite Y chromosome.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 12:27 PM

"Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it" -G. Santayana

"When will they ever learn?" -Peter Seeger

"Those who remember the past learn to do it better the next time, generally not in a good way" -JotSC, a very pessimistic old man.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:27 PM

I'm tempted to make some dumb commment about cute little brown shirts but it could just be incredibly young kids sayin' the first incredibly dumb thing that could come out of their mouths.

bright people do dumb stuff and dumb itself knows no low.

The only hope is that even the dumb can learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 01:37 PM

The story is shocking, but scouting from its inception has been about fostering brotherhood and equality across class, racial and religious divides.
In Victorian England, those ideals were radical indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 05:50 PM

Well, they were in Essex of course!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Smokey.
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 06:00 PM

They should have their woggles removed.

But seriously, it sounds as though a bit of education wouldn't go amiss..

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:19 PM

Pedantic note - Scouts date from Edwardian England, not Victorian.

Maybe the teenager(s) involved was/were trying to be "edgy", which is widely seen as a good thing to be, and appears to be regarded as excusing just about anything when the professionals to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 07:45 PM

When I was a Scout (Back in The Good Old Days) The Man would have had serious words if any of US had come out with anything like that .
It certainly would NOT have happened twice !

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:06 PM

scouting from its inception has been about fostering brotherhood and equality across...religious divides

Scouting to this day actually practices some discrimination upon religious grounds. Those of non-theistic beliefs like atheists, taoists, buddhists, unitarians, humanists, pantheists etc are technically and often in practice barred from occupying certain roles because the rules require a belief & duty to God. It's also pretty dodgy with regard to the oath that the kids take if they're from non-theist traditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,bert
Date: 14 Nov 09 - 08:22 PM

scouting from its inception has been about fostering brotherhood and equality...

Scouting from it's inception was an attempt by Baden-Powell to instill some military training in young kids before they went in the army in WWI. That's why they do all that marching in parades.

My personal experience of the scouts is that they are aloof and cliquey and in my last dealing with a scoutmaster, outright dishonest.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:23 AM

They do not do all that marching.
Watch and you will see they do it badly because drill and military skills form no part of scouting.
BP did not forsee the problem with atheists, but making all religions of equal worth was a quantum leap in Edwardian (thanks Kevin) England.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,EricTheOrange
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 04:38 AM

BP did not forsee the problem with atheists

Fair enough but the scouts have had plenty of opportunity since BP to address the issue. Given that they haven't, and given some more recent pushes to oust non-theist (important to note that this doesn't just apply to atheists!) leaders, I think says a lot.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:32 AM

Remember, Baden Powell the man who founded the Boy Scouts also was responsible fot the first concentration camps in South Africa during the Boer War,

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:58 AM

Anyhow, what's with Essex. I have never understood why it has become such a byword for yobbery & brainless females. Some of its urban bits are less than exquisite, but that applies to many inner-city landscapes. And there are some beautiful bits of countryside & lovely little country towns - like Thetford, venue of so much Morris Ring activity. Get off Essex's back, that's what I say — the joke is wearing very thin.

PS I don't live there, I live over the border in Cambridgeshire, so I have no axe to grind here.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:29 AM

Andrew Marks, chair of the National Jewish Scout Fellowship, said: "We have never experienced or come across any antisemitism in the scout movement and we have been shocked and astonished by this.

"We believe this is an isolated incident by a boy who has said some things which were totally deplorable and disgusting but there needs to be a modicum of understand that this is an isolated incident."

Simon Carter, of the Scout Association, said: "Scouting is an international movement with over 30 million youth members and works for peace in nearly every country in the world.


"The understanding and valuing of their faith and the faith of others is one of the core principles of scouting.


"We do this by providing practical activities, opportunities to work in teams, learning by doing and getting young people to think for themselves.


"As scouts, we promise to do our duty and to help other people. Clearly this child has not lived up to this promise.


"Our role as adults in scouting is to work with this child and to challenge them in this area of their thinking.


"All members of the scout unit are aware of the seriousness of the incident and are aware that such behaviour has no place in scouting or society at large."

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:38 AM

My turn to be pedantic.
Thetford is a long way from Essex, being in Suffolk and almost Norfolk.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

Well, they were in Essex of course!

Typical comment from middle class ponces who don't like the working class to get ideas above their station.

Just a working class joke - remember Tricky Dicky??

good evening, i'm from essex
in case you couldn't tell (l pronounced as w)
my given name is dickie,
i come from billericay
and i'm doing very well (l pronounced as w)

It's the home of perhaps some of the most ill spoken chavs outside Croydon!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

Sorry, Keith — I meant Thaxted.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:42 AM

I meant Billericay Dickie of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:45 AM

He means Thaxted in Essex I think? Soundsabitalike.
There are some beautiful picturesque villages in Essex (mainly North Essex, closer to the Suffolk border), there's also really unpleasant towns like Romford closer to London, that tend to have lots of BNP sympathy.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:46 AM

Never, tho, let us forget the delightful Dagenham Girl Pipers, whom I always greatly admired.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 08:56 AM

I was once asked to join the Dagenham girl pipers but declined because it clashed with hockey!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:01 AM

I recently did a bit of research about and for a Boys Club in unnamed town in Essex and discovered it had no members of colour.

There is a fair amount of yobbery in some Kent towns I have visited. Come to think of it, saw it in Cornwall and Edinburgh and Stirling Scotland as well. Don't think it is regional by any stretch of the imagination. I think it is generational.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:40 AM

Generational - yes that's right, it's their strange way of speaking too, voice going up at the end of every sentence, not that they teach what a sentence is any more at schools!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 02:31 PM

I think it is generational.

The actions on one or two teenagers, outragous though they were, doesn't mean that all young people, or all Scouts for that matter, should be tarred with the same brush. The fact is that, throughout the country, Scouts, Guides, Boys Brigade, Army Cadets, Air Cadets, Sea Cadets and other youth groups were out in public on a November Sunday morning taking an active part in Remembrance parades when many adults were tucked up safely at home with their minds on other things.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 06:59 PM

The British did indeed set up concentration camps for Boer civilians, and an estimated 26,000 interned women and children died in them. (And an estimated 14,000 Africans died in separate camps.) But I've never heard Baden-Powell was involved in that.

Incidentally, the first "reconcentrados" were set up by General Valeriano Weyler in Cuba in 1895.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

Incidentally, the first "reconcentrados" were set up by General Valeriano Weyler in Cuba in 1895.
Although a different name was given to their precursor equivalents during the American Civil War/ War between the States/ Aggression from the North/ the Late Unpleasantness.

But I don't think Baden Powell was involved with them, either. By the turn of the century he was, apparently, a bit preoccupied with cross-dressing for Tea Dances on Sunday afternoons; truly a multitalented polymath, like many Edwardians.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 09:57 PM

This wasn't a vacation camp.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 10:03 PM

A picture of a living inmate at Andersonville Prison in 1865.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 15 Nov 09 - 11:14 PM

So was it one boy who yelled, or was it boys 'chanting'? There seems to be some discrepancy (surprise, surprise) in the accounts.

I would wonder if this wasn't one of those instances of a group of boys getting so caught up in a kind of hysteria of humour at some 'in-joke' that the 'outside world' - the world outside their little clique, that outside world that could not possibly be clever enough to appreciate the many levels of irony their humour entails - loses all validity, such that the usual social restraints become, for a euphoric moment, meaningless. For that moment, only the esoterically humorous remark or pose has any value .... I would hope that that is the case, rather than that the incident was an actual instance of anti-semitism. Wishful thinking on my part, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 04:22 AM

There are 30 million scouts, mainly teenagers, and yet how often do you hear of any problems?
This is the only bad news story about scouts I have EVER come across.
Scouting has been only a force for good in the world.
This one story brings out people on Mudcat who link it with concentration camps, accuse it of militarising youth, and persecuting atheists!
Scouting would be missed more than Mudcat I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: freda underhill
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:44 AM

This isn't the only bad news story about the Scouts, unfortunately. Sentencing for scout master paedophiles . If you check Baden-Powell in google, there are a number of articles alleging that he was a paedophile, and many say the Scouts have been infiltrated by paedopphiles over the years.

Today, an Australian politician, Family First senator Steve Fielding told how he was sexually abused as a child, for some years by a scoutmaster. He said his heart went out to anyone with a similar experience. I have a friend (also working in politics, different party) who was also sexually abused by a scoutmaster.

I know the scouts have done many good things, and those who didn't experience abuse are lucky. But not all scouts were lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 08:07 AM

Many say that schools have been infiltrated by paedophiles.
Nearly every week I read about a teacher who has been sacked for inappropriate sexual behaviour.
So schools are a bad thing.

There is no evidence at all that BP was a paedophle, but who knows what he got up to in his concentration camps.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 05:15 PM

This one story brings out people on Mudcat who link it with concentration camps, accuse it of militarising youth, and persecuting atheists!

I'm sure you're aware, Keith, that one of the consequences of a movement as successful as Scouts (under their various nomenclatures) is that the movement affects and is affected by the whole gamut of what goes on in the world.

His southern African experiences formed his view that Britain's youth was not up to maintaining the expectations that came with British notions that their people (and, specifically, the English) were the pinnacle of human development and abilities. So he started the Scouts along paramilitary lines for essentially paramilitary purposes. At the time (and for the next 30 years or so) this was par for the course; because it was (initially) English this was seen as "good" and even when Hitler used the same ideas and practices for the same purposes it was seen as "more or less acceptable".

Baden-Powell was an exceptional product of his time as was the Scouting movement; times have changed, we've changed and Scouting has changed. We hope that all three have changed for the better, because we can all identify faults in all three as we go back into history. The behaviour of the scouts described in the OP is appalling and unacceptable, even though it might have been the consequence of something as minor as a misconstrued sense of humour. The fact that it is unusual should be a comfort to you (and us as well?) and is almost certainly the reason it got onto Mudcat.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:18 PM

"more or less acceptable" The implication of that quote is that it was Baden-Powell saying that. Is that correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Rowan
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:48 PM

It wasn't an implication I intended, McGrath; it's my understanding of how the Hitler Youth were regarded, in their early days, by society at large. The various cross-cultural understandings of single and double quotation marks led me astray; I should have used singles for both.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Royston
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 06:50 PM

This incident tells us nothing about the Scouting Movement; an institution that formed my socialist outlook on life.

It tells us a lot about the consequences - expected or unexpected - about giving publicity to Nick Griffin and the BNP, about normalising fascism, about hyping immigration and the dangers of immigration.

It shows us how giving an inch of ground to these evil and poisonous people and their vicious and poisonous views, perpetuates a cycle of evil and prejudice that starts with abusive boy scouts and ends in gas chambers.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Old Vermin
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:08 PM

Scouts are drawn from and mostly reflect the local community. We were lucky. Our boys joined what was probably the best local troop in our bit of Surrey and then Venture unit. Run by people who were thoughtful and kind - mostly - and with a fairly strong sense of humour. The boys and girls were mostly of the same type. Meeting some of the other local troops, it was evident that they were not all that nice or that bright.

Such is life. And I shudder to think of the consternation at Baden-Powell House. The Romford behaviour showed an attitude well outside the Scout's ethos, never mind the behaviour.

"A Scout is kind to all in thought, word and deed" If I remember rightly.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:37 PM

""Scouting would be missed more than Mudcat I think.""

While I agreee that an isolated incident is NOT indicative of the quality and morality of the Scout movement, I find myself wondering....

Wondering why you have such a poor opinion of the Mudcat community, and given that opinion, WHY are you here?

Mind you, that is a question that has been puzzling me for some time, considering your totally negative attitude to your fellow members.

Don T.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,999
Date: 16 Nov 09 - 07:59 PM

IMO, very well said, Royston.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 06:21 AM

Another story here http://www.allvoices.com/news/4583628-nazi-symbols-probe-wearing



of inappropriate symbolism

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:10 PM

Hitler didn't like the Scouts. In fact he outlawed the German Scouting Movement, and set up the Hitler Youth along rather different lines.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:23 PM

I always knew Hitler wasn't all bad.




(Just kidding, folks, just kidding - lighten up, wouldja!)

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 02:43 PM

Well OK, Meself - but ya-no there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 03:51 PM

With regard to the Scouts who were shouting at Jews, I note that the one thing nobody does is ask them 'What was that all about?'

Maybe they thought they were being funny. Maybe somebody has been feeding them lies. Maybe something else.

I'll tell you one thing - if it were my son, I'd be checking his room, etc, for drugs.

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: meself
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 04:26 PM

"there is such a thing as looking 4 trouble & then playing all 0·poor·wounded·me when you find it!!!"

And this is something I have done?

Subject: RE: BS: Lest we forget - UK scouts antisemitism
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Nov 09 - 07:27 PM

A photo of Polish boy scouts fighting in the Warsaw Uprising