2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?

Subject: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,rhyzla
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:48 AM

The latest BBC folk awards took place last night, and full results are listed on BBC folk and Acoustic site!

IMO, I feel that they are pretty predictable, bearing in mind the list of nominees, tho' how 'Big Session' is a band, and how Bellowhead wins a live award with very few live shows, I'm not sure! ( Incidentally, I really like both of these sets of performers). Also, do the Carthy family need any more awards for their mantlepiece?

Does anyone have any strong opinions on the results?

RHYZLA

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,IanC on the CookieSwallower
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 05:57 AM

Hence ... ******.

;-)

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Pete Jennings
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 09:13 AM

I reckon that Hitchin are worthy winners of the best Folk Club, and about time too.

Pete

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 10:16 AM

I have heard Bellowhead and they are worthy winners in my opinion. Number of live shows is not the issue, quality is. After all they have hardly been on the scene more than a year, but wherever they appeared they went down a storm. Longevity of career is not a prerequisite - being good is what the "best live act" award is for.

Hitchin deserve their award too (though I have few similar clubs to compare them to in my area - Nettlebed being the other one). What rankles here is not the winning of the award, but the naming of it, because I think it should be for the best concert club, which is what Hitchin is. As this award is voted on by the (major) performing acts, it presents a very specific view. And sure, as a performer, I always prefer the bigger venues that can pack 100 or more, have a stage, pay better etc, because it all feeds back to my own importance.

But Folk Clubs (and my use of capitals is intentional) have another role too - to keep live, participatory music going; to keep tradition alive while at the same time giving a platform for the new talent and the future traditions to form; and this while trying to survive the vagaries of licencing, dearth of affordable venues and inadequate funds for advertising. After all, all the major artists that have just voted for the best concert club, started their careers in some Folk Club or other - did they not?

Still, I appreciate that identifying the best Folk Club (from the Folk Music's point of view) would be hard, very time consuming, and would run the risk of coming up with subjective answers anyway.

So well done Hitchin - and well deserved. But who will reward Les and Market Rasen, John at the Topic, Mike at Herga and the dozens of clubs that are the springboard for tomorrow's stars and the true stewards of live folk?

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Rain Dog
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 10:47 AM

Highlights from the show are on

Radio

BBC Radio 2 - Wednesday 16.2.05 - 19.00 to 21.00 hours


and TV

BBC4 - Friday 18.2.05 - 21.30 to 23.00 hours

Followed by 23.00 to 00.00 - Coppersongs ( Documentary on Bob Copper)

and 00.00 to 01.00 - June Tabor

Full details here
BBC4 Friday 18.2.05

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,Yorkie
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 11:36 AM

Bellowhead are one helluva live band. I'm looking forward to seeing them at the Eastleigh Festival in August which has replaced Sidmouth where they played last year in my diary.

See www.eastfest.co.uk for what looks like a cracking line-up.

All the other Folk Award winners are deserving in my view though some are certainly predictable.

Nice to see the Awards are gonna get some tv coverage along with a tribute to 'the man' Bob Copper.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: LesB
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 02:57 PM

I agree with El Grecko re- the Folk Club award comment. As far as I can see all of the past receipients of this award have been 'concert' clubs. Those being the only ones who can afford the 'Big'names, ie:- those that sit on the panel!
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 03:14 PM

Thanks Les. Actually the Awards in their definition refer to "concert clubs" - it's only the title that is a misnomer.

It's a legitimate award, and one that can be chosen objectively from the viewpoint of the artists - a fair one. I just wish they didn't use that title, and -if possible - that they also instigated an award for Folk Clubs.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 07:28 PM

I agree El Greko, no-one can underestimate the value of small clubs who nrture tomorrows stars.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:26 AM

I agree with El G as well.

However, I do remember a few years back being one of only a couple of people who used to do floorspots at Hitchin - the others seemingly being inimidated by the "professional stage" format. Even at St. Neots, a much less "formal" club, there were loads of people who would happily play at the monthly sing around but who wouldn't do a spot in front of the normal audience on guest nights.

It may be that some clubs just evolve into the "concert" format due to lack of willing performers...and, let's face it, most "ordinary" clubs aren't exactly overrun with hordes of would-be folk acts - but that's almost certainly another thread.

Looking forward to the TV programme, Friday 18th at 9.30.

Pete

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM

Not exactly intimidated by Hitchin (we've done a full support spot there), but I heard that the policy was that they didn't have floor singers anymore. Then I heard that they did, or that they did sometimes, or they did once exceptionally. Given such confusion, it's not worth travelling a long way with instruments on the off-chance...

Compare with not-all-that-far-away Sutton, which is also a concert club (monthly, but always guests, big room, PA etc.) which has plenty of floor talent, and there's a good chance of getting a floor spot if you just turn up.

As for St Neots, unwillingness of floor singers at guest nights is inexplicable.

Anahata

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Scintilla
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 10:58 AM

Much of a muchness I thought but good for Karine Polwart eh? I only knew of her through Malinkey but I was never a HUGE fan. Then I heard her on R2 last night and ... well I was blown away. Looking forward to the full programme tonight. And I suppose anything that brings Folk Clubs to people's attention has to be good.... they're an essential part of the whole scene and need to be kept alive.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: breezy
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 04:02 PM

At least Martin Carthy graced our club and silenced the bells.

Was Ramblin Jack oiled?

He is our link, even after all these years, with 'the music' what a trouper.

Sorry bout Friday, cant watch as Hamish is on in St Albans.

best live act, could it be Quicksilver next year?

There are better songs to be found, maybe worth checking out Maidenhead F C at the end of march.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 16 Feb 05 - 07:02 PM

It was good to hear Tom Paxton sing "Last Thing on My Mind" again, having heard so many other people mess it about over the years. I listened to the whole programme on R2 but that was the moment at which I put my books down and really listened.
Congratulations to Karine too: all awards well-deserved and good luck to her in her new career! I was devastated to miss the last Malinky gig with her in the line-up in Edinburgh last Friday, thanks to a bad dose of the flu.
Looking forward to seeing it on BBC4 on Friday, as well as seeing again the Copper family show (which was on a few months ago also).
TB

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,Scouse (Cookie's gone walkabout)
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 02:04 PM

Thanks Breezy for mentioning Jack Elliot.. Without him as with Martin what we we be singin'... As Aye, Phil

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

Was Jack Elliott pissed? Is he ever sober? Great trouper and a great link - but err....yes he drinks.

Dave

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 06:22 PM

Well done Kate - instrumentalist of the year!

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Feb 05 - 07:38 PM

well done to all the winners!

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 04:48 PM

The Carthy family may not need any more awards, but they're going to get them unless other people perform better than them...

Well done to all.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Cats
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 05:01 PM

...but some people actually value the Alternative Awards more. Nominated by folkies and voted for by folkies and hardly a 'star' in sight.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 06:11 PM

Well I just watched it for the first time, and enjoyed it hugely, Karine Polwort was a revelation to me, never having heard her before. Slight resevations on her song that won the best song category, it leant a bit heavily in the direction of country music. Why was Gerald Kaufmann there? I know the labour party keep him hidden near elections because he loses them votes, so they're either not worried about, or are sure of the folk vote. Oyster Bands rendition of John Barleycorn left a lot to be desired, and Maddy Priors mike was turned down on the Steeleye finishing song Van Deimen's Land. all in all, it was a good advert for folk music, thank you Radio 2, I didn't know you had it in you.
Giok

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: LesB
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:01 PM

Yes just watched it, I thought it was a good show. I agree about Steeleye the sound was a bit muted, but clear. Unlike the Oyster Band whose vocals were crap. Anyone watching for the first time must have wondered how they got an award, I know I did. I saw last years 'Big Session' tour with a much different line up to this years, and they were good. (Well those who wern't in the Oyster Band that is).
Really enjoyed Bellowhead, but a bit cheeky pinching half of the Demon Barbers Roadshow (Who should have been nominated!!!). I voted for Bedlam for the dance band vote.
Cheers
Les

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:25 PM

Yes, I watched it and it was, indeed, very predictable. Having said that the winners deserved their laurels.

As to the folk club and being put off by the 'professional' setting of Hitchin Folk Club. Some years ago I went with Mingulay and were told that the club did not have 'floor spots'. We were informed that the only singers apart from the booked guest were resident singers who were booked in advance.

We went back to our old, very friendly, club at the Ongley Arms, Eye.

The folk awards were followed by a prog about the Coppers, especially Bob. This was an excellent documentary! I wonder if anyone else was moved to tears at the end?

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Nemesis
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 07:58 PM

Just enjoying June Tabor (post BBC4 "awards" and "Bob tribute") (at London Symphony Orchestra (LSO) rehearsal hall, ST Lukes Church,- dunno about moved to tears, but certainly a prickle behind the eyes: turned up for Bob's birthday party last year but the upstairs room was packed, so toasted him with a half of Lewes's finest, Harvey's!, downstairs in the Royal Oak... wonderful gentleman :)

Appropos of links with one's ancestors - like the Coppers: just discovered my (erstwhile "missing")great-grandparents are probably buried at St Luke's - wonder if the bones got moved with the renovation?

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Merina
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:23 PM

It was a nice contrast between the Awards Show and the gorgeous Bob Copper family film, I thought - and very decent of BBC TV to have run them like that. On the one hand, the professional folk world shown in a generally good light, on the other the real tradition - each good and important in its own way and I enjoyed both. The Awards show didn't do the old folkrockers, Oysters & Steeleye, many favours and whereas the elderly Bob Copper came over as charming, the elderly Tom Paxton was a bit embarrassing. But everybody else was good. Putting Bellowhead and the rapper side on at the beginning was the oddest thing though. I thought they stole the show, which is usually better placed at the end! The only shame was that there weren't many of the scene's younger performers featured - although I thought I spotted a few in the audience. Maybe they could give a spot to the winner of the Young Tradition award.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: akenaton
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 08:47 PM

How can the BBC manage to ruin the sound in a show like this!!
At times the performers were inaudible,especially Cathie Tickle, who was drowned by her backing.
Big Edna did her usual sterling job of setting Rabbie Burns birlin in his grave!!

I agree with Jock...Karine Polwort looked something special, but Ill have to wait till I hear her properly before I can be sure.

Im ashamed to say I had never heard her before, but Ill certainly buy her CD

In a few years the face of folk music will have changed out of all recognition,into something resembling punk rock.
Is it the death knell at last for we dinosaurs of the revival??
Is it the end of "folk music"
Where is the beauty and the emotion? Energy and volume are no substitute...Ake

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 10:20 PM

maddy prior deserves award for scariest old hippy dancer of the new millenium..

i had to hide behind the sofa until she'd finished flailing about like
an embarrising dervish auntie on too many sherries and hash cakes..

However, she sings brilliantly.. and the band sounded great..

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 18 Feb 05 - 11:41 PM

Ake,
re your last two lines:

"As long as someone sings a song,
as long as someone listens,
as sure as summer follows spring
and sun will rise and set,
and even when we are long gone,
this story is never ending:
As long as someone sings a song
it isn't over yet".

i.e. I'm with the hopeful brigade. Live, participatory, non-star-system, unamplified music will live on; one way or another.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 02:09 AM

The one thing that spoiled the television show for me was this fixation of the video department that you cannot stay with one camera for more than a few seconds (except during the announcements themselves, apparently.) The rapper sequence in particular was completely ruined by moving away from the dancing to show three seconds of a closeup of the trumpet(?) mouthpiece, another few seconds of the head of one of the women dancing alongside the rappers, and so on. I guess the rapper itself was only visible for about half the time.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: greg stephens
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:30 AM

Very interesting programme(I only caught the last half). Karine Polwart sings well, I had the pleasure of meeting her at a Scottish gig last year(her drummer/fiancee was playing with the Boat Band)...but I hadnt heard her sing before. Excellent.
   What I think is a bit of a pity is that these occasions are dominated by,and created for, a very narrow "folk scene", and do not really connect meaningfully with folk music(in the old sense of the word) in Britain. I appreciate that "Folk Awards" trips easier off the tongue than "Awards for people who have adapted material of folk origin into something a little more marketable(though not hugely so)". But it would be nice to see appreciation of something a little more hardcore folky(even a bit more multicultural?) but I suppose they dont want to scare the viewers.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:11 AM

Thoroughly enjoyed watching it on TV last night, but some of the sound was dreadful (Oysterband and Steeleye in particular). Great night for Ms Polwart, but glad it was on after the watershed. "Maddy, pull yer skirt down love"

LL

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 04:21 AM

The sound was truly awful, so disappointed with Tom Paxton's set, and with Steeleye. Never really liked Oysterband and they were not improved by the guests. Karine Polwart and Bellowhead saved the night.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: shepherdlass
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 05:51 AM

Ditto the earlier comments on sound - who on earth over-egged the chorus pedal on the Tom Paxton song? Everything sounded out of tune as a result. And how the hell can you lose June Tabor's voice in the mix?

Bellowhead and Karine Polwart both sounded brilliant - maybe as less long-established artists, they have to cope with lousy sound mixes on a more regular basis?

Would have like to see Maddy Prior invade the stage during Rambling Jack's number. That would have looked like a scary bar scene from a Tom Waits song. Mind you, good on them both for being so sprightly.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Herge
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 06:02 AM

The Irish didnt get much of a look in!

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: akenaton
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 08:32 AM

El Greko.....Thanks for your message ,it lifted my spirits somewhat.

The "Revival" was driven by audiance participation, are wew now too self obsessed to participate in anything? Even during Paxtons spot, the audiance were embarrassed and self conscious.
At one time the roof would have lifted off.
Participation *is* folk music and if it is lost, we can pull the curtain for good.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Merina
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 09:21 AM



Somebody who was there told me that the audience were all singing along lustily to The Last Thing on my Mind, also that Rambling Jack Elliot got a big standing ovation, but neither of those came over on the TV. Bad editing maybe. They seemed to use the same audience shots of the same people looking bored all the way through. Maybe they filmed those while the speeches were going on - they weren't anywhere near as good as Steven Fry and Phil Jupitus last year.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: nutty
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:49 AM

I also thought the sound man, for the live performances, should be shot.
It was awful, no wonder folk doesn't appear too often on TV.

I've never thought of Ramblin Jack Elliott as a folk singer (much too country bluesey for my taste) and I was saddened that the awards concentrated on what I see as the 'Professional' folkies.

Where was Louis Killen , Cyril Tawney, Harvey Andrews, Eric Bogle, Mick Ryan and the hundreds of other bread and butter singers that have kept folk alive.

Watching once was an experience but I don't think I'll bother again.

Give me Bob Copper and his ilk any day.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:52 AM

It was all a bit stringy and reedy....nice to see an oboe being used but alas no whistles, no flutes

Bit sad in a way that it was mostly old timers getting the gongs


BUT it was enjoyable and good to see folk getting some airplay

Sarah

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,Prize Pedant
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 10:59 AM

Louis Killen , Cyril Tawney, Harvey Andrews, Eric Bogle, Mick Ryan: so these are "non-professional" are they? If you're claiming they don't command a fee, why do you have to pay to get into their gigs?

As for last year's ceremony, the one I saw had Stephen Fry and Phill Jupitus as guest speakers.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 11:19 AM

Here in the USA we didn't get the opportunity to watch the awards (or at least I didn't) but have you heard the latest Martin Carthy CD" Waiting for Angels". It's fantastic! Genius and innovative. It's nothing short of the top quality that this performer has put forth for the last forty years. You folks are lucky to have access in your own back yard to this deft talent.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM

I thought the sound was terrible - as were most of the performances!

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,Giok 99
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:10 PM

I agree thst the sound was poor, if they can manage to mute one of the most carrying voices in folk [Maddy Prior god bless her] then they can fuck up anything. I always reckon that you could pick out Maddy's singing in a choir of 100 voices. I am also puzzled by the award to Martin Carthy for the best new recording of a traditional song, can't remember the song, but I'm sure I have an identical recording to the clip they played, from a long time back.
Giok

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: John C.
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:12 PM

Didn't see this - doesn't sound like I missed much, though.
Was Billy Bragg there? The BBC seems to wheel him out every time they cover 'Folk' (about once in a blue moon!). What Mr Bragg has got to do with folk, I've yet to find out!

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 05 - 03:29 PM

He has more 'Steet cred' than Phil Jupitus and Stephen 'Bloody' Fry, he was chosen to record some of Woody Guthrie's archive writings by Woody's family. He set words of Woody's to music of his own, and a very good job he made of it too. His credentials, working class and left leaning make him a good choice for the job. I have no axe to grind, as I feel about Billy Bragg as I used to about Bob Dylan, i.e I prefer other people doing his songs, [good songs too]
Giok

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Lancashire Lad
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 01:46 AM

Ditto Gioks comments on Billy Bragg. Great songs and a genuine person.

LL

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 04:57 AM

What is wrong with the BBC, they must have no professional sound engineers at all, the sound was total crap.

Tom Paxtons voice didn't come through at all, Ramblin jack had to adjust his mic, June Tabor couldn't heard at all.

What was shown on TV was a differently edited programme from what was on Radio 2.

In fact it was all a Smooth Operations production so maybe they were to blame.

eric

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: Hamish
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:10 AM

Listening on the net while doing the ironing, I'm about half-way through and it's as boring as, well, the ironing, really. Such long, rambling, ill-prepared speeeches. It's just as well the music's more entertaining. Hold, on though: what about that Martin Carthy song? That was the most turgid thing ever. Kathryn Tickell was brilliant. Bellowhead good, too, but they always come across as being rather less than the sum of their parts. Helluva set of parts, tho'!

Oh, the other thing was the prominence of the Scottish contingent throughout the whole evening.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:38 AM

Yes I forgot to mention Carthy's murder of Bonnie Woodhall, that was a dire dirge. It is a bit of a Carthy trademark to slow tunes down, sometimes it works like his version of the Ant and the Crow, but this time it was a failure. Sorry Martin!
Giok

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: GUEST,in the know
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:41 AM

>the other thing was the prominence of the Scottish contingent throughout the whole evening.

Its a hushed-up secret that various Scottish record labels and promoters had a meeting with Smooth Operations at last years Celtic Connections (jan 2004) to complain that they were never included in the folk awards - hence their sudden dominance this year.

As for sound, over the last few years the standard of engineering at BBC outside broadcasts seems to have gone steadily downwards. Which is odd as they should be world leaders, and its not as if they don't have people with the skill and expertise (Ralphie?). But I've witnessed some of the crimes against audio engineering first hand, and I can't understand what has happened. At most live events you will find the contingent of crew who just want to smoke fags with "stage crew" written on their shirt, but at the BBC you expect a bit more than that.

The band I work with have now resorted to taking three different engineers to any festival or event being broadcast - one for front of house, one for monitors, and another to mix the broadcast sound. You just can't trust people anymore, which is a shame.

Subject: RE: 2005 BBC folk awards - opinions?
From: nutty
Date: 20 Feb 05 - 05:49 AM

Soooo .... It's not just coincidence that an edited version of Celtic Connections is due to be broadcast on BBC4 this week.